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Match-up Discussion CptXecution's Sub-Zero MU Chart

CptXecution

Brain Dead Bro
Premium Supporter
I'm in the community tier list project representing SZ with Lionheart and I wanted people's opinions on my MU chart. Feel free to criticize or ask questions.

6-4 vs Baraka
7-3 vs Cyber Sub-Zero
4-6 vs Cyrax (Only because of resets)
4.5-5.5 vs Ermac
4-6 vs Freddy Krueger
5.5-4.5 vs Jade (Glow is a bigger pain then you realize)
4.5-5.5 vs Jax
6-4 vs Johnny Cage
3-7 vs Kabal
6-4 vs Kano
3-7 vs Kenshi
3.5-6.5 vs Kitana
3-7 vs Kung Lao (Not 100% I haven't really played HIGH level KL's more than a couple times) Edit: 4-6
6-4 vs Liu Kang
5-5 vs Mileena
6-4 vs Nightwolf (possible even MU)
5.5-4.5 vs Noob Saibot
6-4 vs Quan Chi
4-6 vs Raiden
6-4 vs Rain (Not 100% sure)
5-5 vs Reptile
6-4 vs Scorpion
4-6 vs Sektor
4-6 vs Shang Tsung
6-4 vs Sheeva
4-6 vs Sindel
4-6 vs Skarlet (play Ninj)
4-6 vs Smoke
4-6 vs Sonya Blade
6-4 vs Stryker


This is MY opinion and experience so I'm just looking for insight.

Once I feel I have all the insight I need then I will close this thread.
 

Killphil

A prop on the stage of life.
Sub really struggles against the red characters it seems. I'd like to ask how you get 7-3 for csub? Is it the combination of freeze and EX slide being better than csubs in every way? Well that and csubs shitty teleport. Just a little insight would be nice. (I'm only asking because when I play sub players with csub its more of a game of patience than anything.)
 

CptXecution

Brain Dead Bro
Premium Supporter
Sub really struggles against the red characters it seems. I'd like to ask how you get 7-3 for csub? Is it the combination of freeze and EX slide being better than csubs in every way? Well that and csubs shitty teleport. Just a little insight would be nice. (I'm only asking because when I play sub players with csub its more of a game of patience than anything.)
Clone takes care of him pretty much. No armor, terrible teleport, blocked dive kick into the clone etc. CSZ all about controlling the air and being mobile from that...without that he's pretty useless until he gets in. Bombs aren't really a threat not like Cyrax.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
Sub really struggles against the red characters it seems. I'd like to ask how you get 7-3 for csub? Is it the combination of freeze and EX slide being better than csubs in every way? Well that and csubs shitty teleport. Just a little insight would be nice. (I'm only asking because when I play sub players with csub its more of a game of patience than anything.)
In my opinion...
#1: The Clone. It makes his usual Divekick-based strategies reeeeeeeally dangerous.
#2: If your CSZ opponent respects #1 and doesn't take to the air as often, that leaves him at Sub's mercy as all of his specials are punishable in a variety of ways, save maybe the Ice Bombs.
#3: Sub's playstyle almost takes CSZ's Parry out of the equation. None of his specials chip except Divekick which (IIRC, I havent fought a great deal of CSZs) he can punish or reverse pressure on on block, and his Bombs aren't exactly spectacular, which means all Sub has to do is wait for an opening, commence ass kicking, rinse and repeat. And that's not even factoring in D4 Clone/Slide pressure.
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
I think Sonya and Cyrax are 5-5. Clone OS is really good against them. I think Kung Lao is 4-6. Sub has ways to make him stop teleporting. Its still in Laos favor but its not a total slaughter anymore.
 

CptXecution

Brain Dead Bro
Premium Supporter
Ballsy move, putting it out to the community ;)
It's just a draft lol still needs plenty of work.

no offense but the entire sub community says

Suber-Zero vs Noob is 4-6
I put this because of our talk at SBV if you remember while we played we agreed on 5.5-4.5. Obviously it's been a while but I feel this is an even match up at worst.

I think Sonya and Cyrax are 5-5. Clone OS is really good against them. I think Kung Lao is 4-6. Sub has ways to make him stop teleporting. Its still in Laos favor but its not a total slaughter anymore.
Cyrax is 4-6 in my eyes ONLY because of the resets...I've played Foxy's Sonya countless times and it's SO hard or maybe he's just that damn good lol but Brady did say he was going pretty even last time he played Riu48 (if only I knew what those OS were Rob ;) )lol and I honestly don't have enough REAL Lao experience to make a real judgement on that.
 

Death

Noob
Sonya sub is probably .5 in sonya favor if your doing .5s. But playing with Bradys OS clone is tough. But sonya has her own OS. The sonya player can really hurt the sub player if the sonya player is managing her meter really well. Once sonya gets cornered without meter shes fucked. But sub cant corner when she has meter.

I also think Sub beats Sektor 6-4.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I think Sonya and Cyrax are 5-5. Clone OS is really good against them. I think Kung Lao is 4-6. Sub has ways to make him stop teleporting. Its still in Laos favor but its not a total slaughter anymore.
Can you explain about OS?I know OS is pressing many inputs and having the game decide what to do based on your opponents inputs but what is it used for?
 

CptXecution

Brain Dead Bro
Premium Supporter
Sonya sub is probably .5 in sonya favor if your doing .5s. But playing with Bradys OS clone is tough. But sonya has her own OS. The sonya player can really hurt the sub player if the sonya player is managing her meter really well. Once sonya gets cornered without meter shes fucked. But sub cant corner when she has meter.

I also think Sub beats Sektor 6-4.
I figured you would think Sub beats Sektor lol iKizzle actually has the same as me and we haven't even talked. iaTU is the biggest pain for Sub because he can't clone or throw ice balls. His only option is to STAY offensive at all times and d4 just isn't gonna cut it. Once you have Sektor cornered though it's easy to stuff his wake ups and with no armor it's even harder.

I'm gonna leave Sonya at 4-6 for now until I get more offline Sonya experience or see Tom play with Riu48 with these new OS clones (which are being kept a secret from us lol).

Off topic randomly and towards the offline experience I'm planning a trip to VSM HOPEFULLY next Thursday if I'm granted the time off work.
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
Cyrax is 4-6 in my eyes ONLY because of the resets...I've played Foxy's Sonya countless times and it's SO hard or maybe he's just that damn good lol but Brady did say he was going pretty even last time he played Riu48 (if only I knew what those OS were Rob ;) )lol and I honestly don't have enough REAL Lao experience to make a real judgement on that.
There are ways to mitigate the resets. One of the things you can do is if your gonna get caught in a net, jump. Get caught in the air if possible because that way he only gets the backend of the reset,not the full combo into the reset. Only jump towards Cyrax to, never away from him to. If you keep your spacing right there really isn't much he can to about the clone OS. I realize very few people know what this is yet, but with time Im sure it will get out and become more commonly known about.
 

Bidu

the CHILL of DESPAIR
johnny is 5-5!!!
Nah.

Sonya sub is probably .5 in sonya favor if your doing .5s. But playing with Bradys OS clone is tough. But sonya has her own OS. The sonya player can really hurt the sub player if the sonya player is managing her meter really well. Once sonya gets cornered without meter shes fucked. But sub cant corner when she has meter.

I also think Sub beats Sektor 6-4.
Tell us about OS Clone?


no offense but the entire sub community says

Suber-Zero vs Noob is 4-6

This makes me the exception then. Never said it, not even after Noob buffs in patch 1.05.

In my point of view and own experience it's 5-5. Win the player with the better reads, period.
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
Premium Supporter
vs baraka 6-4?
not even going to bother talking about this anymore in sub forum,but just going to say it the wrong number.
if u want a reason why have a look through the previous MU chart threads, ive made my case there
 

LEGEND

YES!
Premium Supporter
i'll reserve my Judgement on the Stryker v Sub MU until i play Denzel and/or Shoryuken next

Having not played a sub-zero of their caliber yet i feel its 5-5 or possibly in Stryker's favor
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Skarlet is a 5-5. She doesn't have the advantage in that matchup.

then again ... all this does is create animosity. Especially since ... well there is only one SZ who knows all his tools :(
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
This makes me the exception then. Never said it, not even after Noob buffs in patch 1.05.

In my point of view and own experience it's 5-5. Win the player with the better reads, period.
Agreed. Noobs lack of damage,especially midscreen just don't make his right guesses pay off for him enough. Sub can guess wrong 3 or 4 times and then guess right and make it all back and then some. Noob gets penalized alot harder for guessing wrong then Sub does. But Noob is still always throwing stuff at Sub so it is Sub that has to thread the needle to get in. But Sub can botch it a few times before he needs to worry. 5-5.
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
Premium Supporter
I think Kung Lao is a 4-6 rather than a 3-7 (I've been getting better at that matchups since playing Foxy's, Glue's and Omega's Kung lao). I think Jax is a 4-6, too. He just has too many ways to control the fight. from fullscreen to close range, he's too much to handle especially since we can't reliably pressure him when we do get in. Even if you land a point blank d4, you aren't guaranteed 21 or 22 pressure because of exos. Bs character, lol.
 

DeathTouch

Iceman
D
There are ways to mitigate the resets. One of the things you can do is if your gonna get caught in a net, jump. Get caught in the air if possible because that way he only gets the backend of the reset,not the full combo into the reset. Only jump towards Cyrax to, never away from him to. If you keep your spacing right there really isn't much he can to about the clone OS. I realize very few people know what this is yet, but with time Im sure it will get out and become more commonly known about.
Dark Rob. You gotta explain what OS clones means ???
 
I think Kung Lao is a 4-6 rather than a 3-7 (I've been getting better at that matchups since playing Foxy's, Glue's and Omega's Kung lao). I think Jax is a 4-6, too. He just has too many ways to control the fight. from fullscreen to close range, he's too much to handle especially since we can't reliably pressure him when we do get in. Even if you land a point blank d4, you aren't guaranteed 21 or 22 pressure because of exos. Bs character, lol.
How are you faring against them? i cant seem to take many rounds from Glue the 2 times i faced him...

And KL is by far the MU i feel most disadvantaged...