Support for MK1 Supposedly Cancelled

[YagamiFire]

I hope that clarifies things for you.

Dude, I do not get how you are continuing to miss this and only post stuff that actually supports the point I've been making. Continuing to talk about the competitive scene and the pros and podcasts is exactly what I'm talking about when I say you are myopic. MK has a gargantuan casual fanbase that is bigger and more casual than other fighters. You continuously going to these examples does nothing but further my point. You don't even seem to understand that you're talking about less than one percent of one percent of the MK community and fanbase. What's said on here or in this corner of the fanbase is functionally irrelevant and has fuck-all nothing to do with the continued success of MK.

MK needs to be (and remain) accessible, enjoyable and geared towards the casual fanbase that makes up the vast vast VAST population of its community. When MK1 dropped I knew it would be a giant bomb in the long run because I understand the larger audience and how MK is supposed to work as a product...which is something that NRS does not seem to understand with MK1. It's also something you seem repeatedly unable to grasp. Do I want MK to be better balanced and more competitive and on stage on EVO? Of course I do. I want it to be better that way. However, I'm aware of the realities of the series and its fanbase...which you do not seem to be. First, foremost and always MK has to be casual facing and casual friendly. Dev time needs to be devoted to creating a gaming experience that is robust for people that have zero interest in competitive play or how many fucking frames Kano's dick-kick recovers in because they have no idea what that means.

When I mentioned repeated changes to core elements of the game, you said:

Even movement isn't the same across titles as a lot of normals that were backdash cancellable in previous 3D titles weren't so in Armageddon.

I'm talking about basic combos and inputs for specials and you respond with "In Armageddon you can't backdash cancel a lot of normals like you can in Deception & Deadly Alliance". Bro, 99.9% of people that played during the 3d era will have no fucking clue what you're talking about when you say shit like that. Those are the people pissed off by MK1. Those are the people that won't buy the next MK because MK1 had nothing for them and was a "waste of money".

This is how I know you have no frame of fucking reference for what I'm talking about.

Example:

If I do B, B, LP with Scorpion in MK I, MK II, UMK3 or MK4...guess what I will get? Scorpion's spear

Now let's look at 3d era

B, F, 1. B, F, 1. B, F, 1. Every single 3d game.

Then we go back to 2d gameplay with MKvsDC B, B, 1. Same in MK9. Then in MKX and going forward we're back to B, F, 1. And none of this is getting into the other characters who are less iconic than Scorpion or things like basic strings. They have everything about them changed up constantly from moves to strings to archetype. Casuals do not want to feel adrift in every game they pick up but that is what NRS keeps doing. They change so much that it's like learning a whoel new game with very little connection to the past. They need to create continuity between their games (that goes for story continuity too lol).

Look at the approach to casuals. SF massively expanded their single player content with the best single player mode of all time. Tekken tried to add a bunch. Fatal Fury is adding a whole large single player mode. MK1? The least single player content ever. And what they have is terrible. Not only terrible, but it actively hurts you from understanding the game and it creates bad habits.

SF, Tekken, DBFZ, GG...they've all worked to even have simple-combo stuff or even outright separate control schemes to help casuals do cool shit. NRS? The company making Mortal Kombat, the king of casual fighters, does...what? Fuck all nothing. They can't even let people train while waiting for matches.

This is all bad. Objectively bad. This would be bad for any fighting game releasing in this day & age but for the game series that has repeatedly and knowingly courted the most casual, least competitive fanbase of all time? Well, it ends up making their big expansion flop and damages their entire brand. Which anyone could have seen coming from a mile away.

Or, at least, I did. So did a lot of other people. People that aren't tunnel-visioned on the incredibly narrow slice of MK fandom that encompasses the competitive scene.

MK9 was overwhelmingly well received at the casual level. So was MKX. The biggest consistent complaint about MKX was that it was visually muddy looking and not as appealing as MK9 aesthetically...which was the reverse of the general appraisal of SF5 vs SF4 while SF5 was criticized for its total lack of content (ironically because MK9 before it had offered such a robust single player experience). Casuals really liked MK11 because it had so much to do. Casuals hate MK1 because it has nothing to do for them.

This should all be obvious stuff but frame-brained people so fried by being entirely surrounded by the competitive-scene bubble don't seem to get it

Just get it, man.

I'm talking about why the game killed itself. You're talking about opinions from like twelve people bitching about match-ups on a fucking competitive forum 99.9% of the playerbase has never heard of. You cannot equate one to the other.

 

[YagamiFire]

It’s not just the fgc who plays these games. That’s MAYBE 5% of sales right? Possibly 10 but I feel that’s even generous.

It's less than 1%.

Your post is excellent, btw. You get it. This is exactly what I'm talking about. A non frame-brained approach to the reality of the game while still being on a competitive forum.

So I’ve never been hardcore into gameplay. I just like the MK franchise.

You have just described the general outlook of the overwhelming majority of the MK fanbase which is what NRS should be working along the lines of for scope of their projects (while, of course, still doing their best to make the gameplay competent)

 

[Vulgar]

Dude, I do not get how you are continuing to miss this and only post stuff that actually supports the point I've been making. Continuing to talk about the competitive scene and the pros and podcasts is exactly what I'm talking about when I say you are myopic. MK has a gargantuan casual fanbase that is bigger and more casual than other fighters. You continuously going to these examples does nothing but further my point. You don't even seem to understand that you're talking about less than one percent of one percent of the MK community and fanbase. What's said on here or in this corner of the fanbase is functionally irrelevant and has fuck-all nothing to do with the continued success of MK.

MK needs to be (and remain) accessible, enjoyable and geared towards the casual fanbase that makes up the vast vast VAST population of its community. When MK1 dropped I knew it would be a giant bomb in the long run because I understand the larger audience and how MK is supposed to work as a product...which is something that NRS does not seem to understand with MK1. It's also something you seem repeatedly unable to grasp. Do I want MK to be better balanced and more competitive and on stage on EVO? Of course I do. I want it to be better that way. However, I'm aware of the realities of the series and its fanbase...which you do not seem to be. First, foremost and always MK has to be casual facing and casual friendly. Dev time needs to be devoted to creating a gaming experience that is robust for people that have zero interest in competitive play or how many fucking frames Kano's dick-kick recovers in because they have no idea what that means.

When I mentioned repeated changes to core elements of the game, you said:



I'm talking about basic combos and inputs for specials and you respond with "In Armageddon you can't backdash cancel a lot of normals like you can in Deception & Deadly Alliance". Bro, 99.9% of people that played during the 3d era will have no fucking clue what you're talking about when you say shit like that. Those are the people pissed off by MK1. Those are the people that won't buy the next MK because MK1 had nothing for them and was a "waste of money".

This is how I know you have no frame of fucking reference for what I'm talking about.

Example:

If I do B, B, LP with Scorpion in MK I, MK II, UMK3 or MK4...guess what I will get? Scorpion's spear

Now let's look at 3d era

B, F, 1. B, F, 1. B, F, 1. Every single 3d game.

Then we go back to 2d gameplay with MKvsDC B, B, 1. Same in MK9. Then in MKX and going forward we're back to B, F, 1. And none of this is getting into the other characters who are less iconic than Scorpion or things like basic strings. They have everything about them changed up constantly from moves to strings to archetype. Casuals do not want to feel adrift in every game they pick up but that is what NRS keeps doing. They change so much that it's like learning a whoel new game with very little connection to the past. They need to create continuity between their games (that goes for story continuity too lol).

Look at the approach to casuals. SF massively expanded their single player content with the best single player mode of all time. Tekken tried to add a bunch. Fatal Fury is adding a whole large single player mode. MK1? The least single player content ever. And what they have is terrible. Not only terrible, but it actively hurts you from understanding the game and it creates bad habits.

SF, Tekken, DBFZ, GG...they've all worked to even have simple-combo stuff or even outright separate control schemes to help casuals do cool shit. NRS? The company making Mortal Kombat, the king of casual fighters, does...what? Fuck all nothing. They can't even let people train while waiting for matches.

This is all bad. Objectively bad. This would be bad for any fighting game releasing in this day & age but for the game series that has repeatedly and knowingly courted the most casual, least competitive fanbase of all time? Well, it ends up making their big expansion flop and damages their entire brand. Which anyone could have seen coming from a mile away.

Or, at least, I did. So did a lot of other people. People that aren't tunnel-visioned on the incredibly narrow slice of MK fandom that encompasses the competitive scene.

MK9 was overwhelmingly well received at the casual level. So was MKX. The biggest consistent complaint about MKX was that it was visually muddy looking and not as appealing as MK9 aesthetically...which was the reverse of the general appraisal of SF5 vs SF4 while SF5 was criticized for its total lack of content (ironically because MK9 before it had offered such a robust single player experience). Casuals really liked MK11 because it had so much to do. Casuals hate MK1 because it has nothing to do for them.

This should all be obvious stuff but frame-brained people so fried by being entirely surrounded by the competitive-scene bubble don't seem to get it

Just get it, man.

I'm talking about why the game killed itself. You're talking about opinions from like twelve people bitching about match-ups on a fucking competitive forum 99.9% of the playerbase has never heard of. You cannot equate one to the other.

Ah, I see where we're miscommunicating. I'm talking about the competitive community. The community which this - a competitive MK website - was built for and by. Competitive UMK3 and 3D MK players.

So yes, I should clarify by saying that I am referring to the competitive community.

If people who buys a game, does a couple fatalities, then never touch it again don't like it, that's fine. It effects me not at all.

The input of special moves being the same does not mean that the games play the same.

In the very first MK game, combos were a bug. They were not intentional. In fact, later revisions in the arcade tried to take them out.

In UMK3 however, combos are not only intentional but desirable. There are block strings which do not exist in MK1 or MK2. Likewise, movement is completely different. You cannot run in MK1 and 2 the way you can with UMK3. All these things make for a significantly different experience from one another. This isn't high level knowledge. This is basic system mechanics.

Likewise, MK4 and the 3D MKs do not play alike at all. There were no weapon styles in MK4, or fighting styles in general. Even basic movement works differently. These all add up to a different experience.

Every MK game from UMK3 and on offered very different experiences from one another on a basic gameplay function. Even Timmy can look at MK4 and then at MKvsDC and see that these games are not the same in how they play. You need only a pair of eyes. No frame knowledge needed!

 

[Vulgar]

But on the casual level, MK1 outsold it's competitors at launch and WB has stated that it is going to devote more resources into the IP.

That does not sound like a dying franchise at all.

 

[YagamiFire]

If people who buys a game, does a couple fatalities, then never touch it again don't like it, that's fine. It effects me not at all.

Yes it does if you ever want more games. If the games do badly with casuals, we get nothing. Period.

I do agree with the other stuff you said and glad we are getting on the same wavelength. I do appreciate that opportunity to clarify and for us to get on a similar page.

But on the casual level, MK1 outsold it's competitors at launch and WB has stated that it is going to devote more resources into the IP.

That does not sound like a dying franchise at all.

Batman & Robin did well on opening weekend.

How did it do long-term for the Batman movie franchise?

MK1 is going to be outsold by SF6 despite being Mortal Kombat. Khaos Reigns failed target goals as an expansion.

These are bad things that are a bad sign for the franchise from a business standpoint. MK1 selling what it did and having less active players than MK11 is a bad thing. It means A LOT of people bought the game then dropped it. We saw the impact on Khaos Reigns...and WB now knows what that could mean for the next game.

By your logic, Mortal Kombat Annihilation was FANTASTIC for Mortal Kombat movies because it premiered at number one for its weekend.

 

[Vulgar]

Yes it does if you ever want more games. If the games do badly with casuals, we get nothing. Period.

I do agree with the other stuff you said and glad we are getting on the same wavelength. I do appreciate that opportunity to clarify and for us to get on a similar page.



Batman & Robin did well on opening weekend.

How did it do long-term for the Batman movie franchise?

MK1 is going to be outsold by SF6 despite being Mortal Kombat. Khaos Reigns failed target goals as an expansion.

These are bad things that are a bad sign for the franchise from a business standpoint. MK1 selling what it did and having less active players than MK11 is a bad thing. It means A LOT of people bought the game then dropped it. We saw the impact on Khaos Reigns...and WB now knows what that could mean for the next game.

By your logic, Mortal Kombat Annihilation was FANTASTIC for Mortal Kombat movies because it premiered at number one for its weekend.

A leaker said Khaos Reigns didn't do well. To my knowledge, no official numbers have been released. So we don't actually know what the sales are.

Given that they continued to make Batman movies - and arguably some of the best movies in the franchise - I'd say Batman and Robin didn't do much long term. We still got good movies afterwards.

Even if you think MK1 is on that tier - and I personally don't - it's not going to kill MK. There will always be more MK games.

 

[YagamiFire]

Given that they continued to make Batman movies - and arguably some of the best movies in the franchise - I'd say Batman and Robin didn't do much long term. We still got good movies afterwards.

Batman 1989, Batman Returns 1992, Batman Forever 1995, Batman & Robin 1997

Batman Begins 2005

Ah very good and honest discussion, Vulgar.

In the spirit of honesty, I hope that MK1 didn't do any more damage to MK than Batman & Robin did to the Batman movie franchise. With that, and your very very believable assessment of Batman & Robin's impact, I look forward to your insights on the next MK game that will be released in 2031.

Remember, TYT, whenever you want to have confidence in Vulgar's opinions, remember that he stands by Batman & Robin not having done much long term to hurt the Batman movie franchise. Now that's a level of honest discourse you can trust!

In other news, step right up, everyone! In the spirit of the honesty of the above assessment, I've got something else to show you that you can surely trust!

My friends, your patience is about to be rewarded. For I saved the best for last. I have recently discovered a cure-all of unrivaled potency. It will soon be on the shelves in every home of TYT. This elixir is crafted from an ancient recipe. It has Patreon flowers. Margovian nectar. Powdered teeth of an Arctikan dragon. All this and more, infused with powerful Lekorian magic. There is a forum, in the next webhost over, where everyone has purchased this miracle cure. Overnight, all diseases, even NRS-shilling, have disappeared. Now magic this potent is expensive. And I am sure you're asking yourselves: can I afford it? But the true question you must ask is: can I afford to be without it?

 

[KiD INsAnitY]

I don't know how people say shit like this other than total ignorance of the time period they're talking about

During the 3d era, MK and Tekken were the major visible fighting games on the block with real notoriety.

Deadly Alliance was a huge hit that is credited with reviving the entire franchise after 3 and 4 did not do well.

Deception was literally the fastest selling Midway game of all time.

This wacky revisionist history that MK was "not on the map" as a franchise during the 3d era is absolutely wild. MKI and II were huge, 3 and 4 were a slump then the franchise did extremely well with Deadly Alliance through Armageddon.

If MK1 is the new MK4, NRS & WB would pray to God to have their next game be like Deadly Alliance with the start of the 3d era

Lmao tht shit was NOT on the map. Outside of the scene the 3d era had.. pure ignorance to think the masses took them seriously at all keep going tho

 

[Lord Snotty]

But on the casual level, MK1 outsold it's competitors at launch and WB has stated that it is going to devote more resources into the IP.

That does not sound like a dying franchise at all.

Yes, but once we played it, the hard cold reality hit us that we'd been sold shit for the first time in MK's long history. Hence the lower numbers for Khaos Reigns. I honestly believe this disaster will have dire consequences moving on. For me,the story, roster, and Kameos are all pretty bad and they're what needed to be much better.

 

[chrisisnice]

A few thoughts.

I was ready to hate this game. I thought Kameos would ruin the game, but they were fun.

The impact of 3D characters on sales is bullshit. There are five of them out of a 35 playable character roster- one of those is now basically a mainstay of the series now (Kenshi). I do not think that people initially bought MKX for Ferra Torr and Kung Jin, so I do not think that 3D characters had a major impact. Some of them were very well implemented - particularly Ashrah.

I said from the start that sales would be massively hurt by the fact that they had moved to current gen consoles rather than PS4 etc as only a third of people have new gen. People argued with me about it, but it came true- I said from the start, this was their dumbest call. The audience is significantly reduced by only targeting current gen, so Khaos Reigns was never going to sell well.

It really is a shame. The game is close to how it should have been shipped. It would have been nice to see where it went from here.

 

[YagamiFire]

Lmao tht shit was NOT on the map. Outside of the scene the 3d era had.. pure ignorance to think the masses took them seriously at all keep going tho

What in the fuck are you talking about?

Deadly Alliance sold over 3 million copies. It was part of the Best Seller's line for every single console it was on and was the best reviewed MK since MKII.

Deception was Midway's fastest selling game ever. That right there tells you Deadly Alliance did well with casuals because it built crazy excitement for the sequel.

Both games won multiple awards (including fan-votes) for best fighting game of their year.

You flat out do not know what you're talking about. You're arguing with raw data.

 

[Jynks]

Lmao tht shit was NOT on the map. Outside of the scene the 3d era had.. pure ignorance to think the masses took them seriously at all keep going tho

Say you know nothing about Mortal Kombat with out saying you know nothing about Mortal Kombat.

 

[Vulgar]

Batman 1989, Batman Returns 1992, Batman Forever 1995, Batman & Robin 1997

Batman Begins 2005

Ah very good and honest discussion, Vulgar.

In the spirit of honesty, I hope that MK1 didn't do any more damage to MK than Batman & Robin did to the Batman movie franchise. With that, and your very very believable assessment of Batman & Robin's impact, I look forward to your insights on the next MK game that will be released in 2031.

Remember, TYT, whenever you want to have confidence in Vulgar's opinions, remember that he stands by Batman & Robin not having done much long term to hurt the Batman movie franchise. Now that's a level of honest discourse you can trust!

In other news, step right up, everyone! In the spirit of the honesty of the above assessment, I've got something else to show you that you can surely trust!

My friends, your patience is about to be rewarded. For I saved the best for last. I have recently discovered a cure-all of unrivaled potency. It will soon be on the shelves in every home of TYT. This elixir is crafted from an ancient recipe. It has Patreon flowers. Margovian nectar. Powdered teeth of an Arctikan dragon. All this and more, infused with powerful Lekorian magic. There is a forum, in the next webhost over, where everyone has purchased this miracle cure. Overnight, all diseases, even NRS-shilling, have disappeared. Now magic this potent is expensive. And I am sure you're asking yourselves: can I afford it? But the true question you must ask is: can I afford to be without it?

Gosh, it seems like you're awfully confused by what, "long-term" means. I didn't even see any arguments in that post. Wowee!

Given Batman's over 80 years of history and the fact that it is a multi-media franchise, an 8-year gap isn't very long at all.

Hmm. Let's look at the time between the last Nolan movie - the third part of his critically acclaimed trilogy - and The Batman.

Wow! 10 years! Why, by your logic, The Dark Knight Rises did MORE damage than Batman and Robin!

Gee mister, I hope I can be as smart as you one day!

Jesus blesses you!

Edit: Batman Begins made over 375 million worldwide. Truly, Batman and Robin sunk the franchise.

 

[YagamiFire]

Gosh, it seems like you're awfully confused by what, "long-term" means. I didn't even see any arguments in that post. Wowee!

Given Batman's over 80 years of history and the fact that it is a multi-media franchise, an 8-year gap isn't very long at all.

Hmm. Let's look at the time between the last Nolan movie - the third part of his critically acclaimed trilogy - and The Batman.

Wow! 10 years! Why, by your logic, The Dark Knight Rises did MORE damage than Batman and Robin!

Gee mister, I hope I can be as smart as you one day!

Jesus blesses you!

...

Batman v Superman was 4 years after Dark Knight Rises. FUCKING WHOOPS! Swing and a miss on that one, huh?

Please go on though, keep supporting your argument on the rock solid foundation of "Ackshually, Batman & Robin wasn't bad for the Batman movie franchise at all. Ignore that it literally caused them to cancel its sequel (and potentially a spinoff)". I am sure everyone will absolutely take that argumentation seriously. Making the claim Batman & Robin didn't do damage to the Batman movie franchise forcing it to take time to recover means you're either so staggeringly stupid that chewing without dying must be a challenge or you're amazingly intellectually dishonest in your attempts to defend MK1 and salvage the fucking dumpsterfire its obviously turned into.

Edit: Batman Begins made over 375 million worldwide. Truly, Batman and Robin sunk the franchise.

It's amazing how you seem totally incapable of nuance. Batman & Robin damaged the franchise in theaters. So it took nearly a decade before they took another stab at a movie with Batman with Batman Begins...which was bolstered by good word of mouth & reviews.

"Batman Begins averaged $12,634 per theater in its opening weekend. It was released in more theaters, but sold fewer tickets than the other previous Batman movies, with the exception of Batman & Robin. "

It did WORSE for sales than Batman, Dark Knight or Dark Knight Rises. And keep in mind that it was released in fucking 2005 when Batman came out in 1989 so there's a 16 year gap for inflation in there where Batman still beat it. It did well on home video. DK and DKR gained huge lift from how good Begins was and, of course, DK blew up big time.

Did a quick inflation calculation. Adjusted for 2005, Batman 89 made 640 million. Kind of absolutely annihilates Batman Begins at 373. Especially when you consider Batman was made for 48 million (the equivalent of 75 million in 2005) and Begins had a budget of 150 million. Literally double the budget for 300 million less.

Man, it's almost like fewer people had faith in a Batman movie after...hmm...I guess after Batman & Robin.

The fact that you are trying to claim Batman & Robin didn't damage the Batman movie franchise is legitimately fucking insane. It borders on delusional.

 

[Vulgar]

...

Batman v Superman was 4 years after Dark Knight Rises. FUCKING WHOOPS! Swing and a miss on that one, huh?

Please go on though, keep supporting your argument on the rock solid foundation of "Ackshually, Batman & Robin wasn't bad for the Batman movie franchise at all. Ignore that it literally caused them to cancel its sequel (and potentially a spinoff)". I am sure everyone will absolutely take that argumentation seriously. Making the claim Batman & Robin didn't do damage to the Batman movie franchise forcing it to take time to recover means you're either so staggeringly stupid that chewing without dying must be a challenge or you're amazingly intellectually dishonest in your attempts to defend MK1 and salvage the fucking dumpsterfire its obviously turned into.



It's amazing how you seem totally incapable of nuance. Batman & Robin damaged the franchise in theaters. So it took nearly a decade before they took another stab at a movie with Batman with Batman Begins...which was bolstered by good word of mouth & reviews.

"Batman Begins averaged $12,634 per theater in its opening weekend. It was released in more theaters, but sold fewer tickets than the other previous Batman movies, with the exception of Batman & Robin. "

It did WORSE for sales than Batman, Dark Knight or Dark Knight Rises. And keep in mind that it was released in fucking 2005 when Batman came out in 1989 so there's a 16 year gap for inflation in there where Batman still beat it. It did well on home video. DK and DKR gained huge lift from how good Begins was and, of course, DK blew up big time.

The fact that you are trying to claim Batman & Robin didn't damage the Batman movie franchise is legitimately fucking insane. It borders on delusional.

Batman v Superman was a critical failure and is definitely not looked on kindly in retrospect. Batman v Superman was seen at the time as "performing below expectations."


Additionally, I said that it did not do much damage at all to the franchise long-term. Long-term. Please focus. I didn't say it did no damage and I didn't say there was no effect. Focus, sir.

Given that Batman was pretty much always around in the cultural zeitgeist between animated shows, animated movies, etc. Between B&R and Begins, no, it did not do much damage to the franchise long term.

8 years in an 80+ year long IP that had numerous projects in that 8 years, does not a dead/failing franchise make, no matter how badly you want it to. Even if we're just talking movies, there were still animated movies released in that 8 year gap.

 

[YagamiFire]

Batman v Superman was a critical failure and is definitely not looked on kindly in retrospect.

Yeah it was garbage but it still fucking exists. You can't skip from DKR to The Batman like BvS and Justice League didn't exist. Take your L on your terrible attempt at a gotcha for DKR to The Batman as if there was no flagship Batman movie between them. That was the point you tried to make and totally bumbled.

As for your 'long term' bullshit, it's just that...bullshit.

"Ackshually, on the sale of the heat death of the universe, it did no damage at all"

Beyond intellectually dishonest. No one said Batman & Robin fucking killed Batman as a franchise for all time. It damaged it and it needed time to recover. A near-decade break when you've been releasing movies every 2-3 years for 4 movies in a row is a clear sign that shit went wrong just like if a game series was releasing games every 2 years then suddenly stopped and needed to take 5-8 years off.

Add in the fact that the next Batman movie after B&R made only slightly more than half after spending a budget twice as much money than the initial movie that started the flagship characters modern movie existence (again, $640 million on a $75 million budget vs $373 million on a $150 million budget. Go ahead and explain that), and it's obvious the franchise was damaged by B&R.

You can read multiple places from directors, actors and even executives within WB that B&R damaged the franchise and it needed time to recover. This is quite literally inarguable. Are you a Flat Earther too? That is the level of rejection of reality you are taking part in right now.

"Well uh uh uh animated movies..."

I gotta say, if nothing else, your stamina is impressive considering how much you run around with goalposts on your back. The fact that you're trying to talk about animated straight-to-video releases as if they're equivalent to theatrical blockbusters is a fucking joke.

Absolute clownshow. Try to be less intellectually dishonest. Please. This is embarrassing.

 

[Vulgar]

Yeah it was garbage but it still fucking exists. You can't skip from DKR to The Batman like BvS and Justice League didn't exist. Take your L on your terrible attempt at a gotcha for DKR to The Batman as if there was no flagship Batman movie between them. That was the point you tried to make and totally bumbled.

As for your 'long term' bullshit, it's just that...bullshit.

"Ackshually, on the sale of the heat death of the universe, it did no damage at all"

Beyond intellectually dishonest. No one said Batman & Robin fucking killed Batman as a franchise for all time. It damaged it and it needed time to recover. A near-decade break when you've been releasing movies every 2-3 years for 4 movies in a row is a clear sign that shit went wrong just like if a game series was releasing games every 2 years then suddenly stopped and needed to take 5-8 years off.

Add in the fact that the next Batman movie after B&R made only slightly more than half after spending a budget twice as much money than the initial movie that started the flagship characters modern movie existence (again, $640 million on a $75 million budget vs $373 million on a $150 million budget. Go ahead and explain that), and it's obvious the franchise was damaged by B&R.

You can read multiple places from directors, actors and even executives within WB that B&R damaged the franchise and it needed time to recover. This is quite literally inarguable. Are you a Flat Earther too? That is the level of rejection of reality you are taking part in right now.

"Well uh uh uh animated movies..."

I gotta say, if nothing else, your stamina is impressive considering how much you run around with goalposts on your back.

Absolute clownshow. Try to be less intellectually dishonest. Please. This is embarrassing.

You've been arguing against a straw man the entire time. In the future, I encourage you to actually engaging with the things people actually say.

Moving goalposts? You took me saying "Batman and Robin didn't do much damage long-term"

And turned it into, "Batman and Robin did no damage to the franchise."

There's only one dishonest person here, and it isn't me.

Good day, sir!

 

[ImpostorOak]

 

[spidey300]

I'm just glad I didn't buy it at full price just like I will never buy another nrs game at full price after mk11 until they get their act together or WB is completely out of the picture. It was more fun than mk11 but that was an incredibly low bar but mk11 had more soul in a way

 

[YagamiFire]

Moving goalposts? You took me saying "Batman and Robin didn't do much damage long-term"

Having to cool off production of a property for nearly a decade is long term damage. It quadrupled the time for their release schedule because of how bad B&R was. That revenue loss is immense. At their pace the could have done 3-4 more movies in those 8 years. Instead there was one movie released at the end of 8 years...and it barely did half as well as the initial 89 film.

Losing hundreds of millions of dollars in potential and unrealized revenue over the course of nearly a decade is the fucking definition of long term damage. Saying "Well ackshually Batman has been around for 80 years so it's fine because it's 2024 and Batman movies exist" is absolute bullshit.

"Following the poor critical and financial reception of Batman & Robin, Clooney vowed never to reprise his role, and Warner Bros. cancelled any future Batman films, including Schumacher's planned Batman Unchained.

In a 2012 interview with Access Hollywood, Chris O'Donnell claimed that a spin-off centered around the character of Robin was planned, but eventually scrapped due to Batman & Robin's poor commercial performance"

But Vulgar will tell you it did no long term damage to the Batman movie franchise. Hundreds of millions of dollars? Not long-term damage apparently.

Sure, man.

I legit hope people read this shit and see how dishonest (or delusional) you are.

 

[Vulgar]

I'm just glad I didn't buy it at full price just like I will never buy another nrs game at full price after mk11 until they get their act together or WB is completely out of the picture. It was more fun than mk11 but that was an incredibly low bar but mk11 had more soul in a way

I agree with this. I personally find MK1 more fun to actually play then just about any previous game, but it's launch was a disaster.

 

[SaltShaker]

I agree with this. I personally find MK1 more fun to actually play then just about any previous game, but it's launch was a disaster.

This is why I call it the SFV of the MK era. People see it as a diss, but always forget S4 and S5 of SFV was epic with S5 being truly a great game, but the stain of launch, S1, and S2 were like a stain so deep you had to throw the shirt away lol. MK1 is actually a good game right now but the damage from the launch and word of mouth hurt it. They'll need a SF6 revamp to repair the image I think across the greater group of players which should be more than possible if they take in all the feedback and apply it.

 

[Vulgar]

This is why I call it the SFV of the MK era. People see it as a diss, but always forget S4 and S5 of SFV was epic with S5 being truly a great game, but the stain of launch, S1, and S2 were like a stain so deep you had to throw the shirt away lol. MK1 is actually a good game right now but the damage from the launch and word of mouth hurt it. They'll need a SF6 revamp to repair the image I think across the greater group of players which should be more than possible if they take in all the feedback and apply it.

I agree. Although to make something that addresses a lot of these issues is going to take a lot of time. I often wonder what happened behind the scenes that caused them to cancel further support for 11 and start work on MK1. Whatever it was, it's clear that they weren't given enough time to cook.

Here's hoping WB stays out of the kitchen this time.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

if they take in all the feedback and apply it.

I think this is the most damning thing for MK's future. WB doesn't give a fuck about their properties, they were willing to destroy the Arkham brand with Suicide Squad and have heavily damaged all the good will from the first 4 NRS games, as well as harming their at the time new IP of Shadow of War / Shadow of Mordor with insane micro transactions.

Capcom, while also being greedy as fuck, seem to actually give a fuck about their brands. They revamped Resident Evil and out of their last 5 games, 4 have been good and 2 have been truly incredible. RE9 is likely to be very good and RE5 remake and the potential of a Code Veronica remake are games fans actually are asking for. They gave us Devil May Cry 5 (which is the best action game of all time, let's be clear) after 11 years, and Devil May Cry 4 special edition after 7 years, ditching the awful reboot everyone hated instead of sticking it out (we will see if MK does something similar). And of course they dropped SF6 and healed a lot of the damage from SF5. They're WAY more in touch with what their fans want from each of their franchises.

 

[Vulgar]

Having to cool off production of a property for nearly a decade is long term damage. It quadrupled the time for their release schedule because of how bad B&R was. That revenue loss is immense. At their pace the could have done 3-4 more movies in those 8 years. Instead there was one movie released at the end of 8 years...and it barely did half as well as the initial 89 film.

Losing hundreds of millions of dollars in potential and unrealized revenue over the course of nearly a decade is the fucking definition of long term damage. Saying "Well ackshually Batman has been around for 80 years so it's fine because it's 2024 and Batman movies exist" is absolute bullshit.

"Following the poor critical and financial reception of Batman & Robin, Clooney vowed never to reprise his role, and Warner Bros. cancelled any future Batman films, including Schumacher's planned Batman Unchained.

In a 2012 interview with Access Hollywood, Chris O'Donnell claimed that a spin-off centered around the character of Robin was planned, but eventually scrapped due to Batman & Robin's poor commercial performance"

But Vulgar will tell you it did no long term damage to the Batman movie franchise. Hundreds of millions of dollars? Not long-term damage apparently.

Sure, man.

I legit hope people read this shit and see how dishonest (or delusional) you are.

Ah, still struggling to quote me properly, I see.

I encourage you to look into the differences between "no damage long term" and "didn't do much damage long term."

This is a lot of rhetorical flailing over the fact that you were caught burning up a straw man.

It's all right. It happens. I'm POSITIVE you'll recover!