Does extra complexity always translate to more fun?

I tried to post this on a comment regarding Mk9 but it was too long. The argument was Mk9 lovers are just looking through rose colored glasses.

People that love Mk9 (like myself) are well aware that the game was not perfect. Nobody likes terrible netcode, nobody likes infinites, nobody likes P1 advantage, limited training mode, bugs, etc. So why would we be any different? When we say we love Mk9 and that it was more fun than 10,11,1 I think we are just talking about the gameplay mechanics and overall feel.

Now here I may lose some of my fellow Mk9 lovers, but honestly, I think the biggest charm of MK9 was the general simplicity compared to the subsequent games:

-You had one character. If you wanted to get good with a character, you play and you lab. Now you gotta worry about 19 different "variations" of your character due to kameos and have to lab against an infinite list of variable opponents due to all possible combinations of characters and kameos.

-50/50 situations were kept to a minimum. The game was more about reading and reacting to your opponent instead of constant guessing.

-You had one type of block. Now you also have flawless block and up block. I wouldn't even mind the extra block types if it was just an optional path to successfully compete in high level gameplay. But now you are forced to use up block to just prevent some scrub from winning by spamming you with some bullshit e.g. Omni man Tiebreaker

-You had one meter. So much easier to focus on and manage.

-Chunky bnb's didn't require meter. Now it's like "Ok, time to punish. Wait, I have to see if I have enough meter for option A or option B, then i have to look at my kameo's meter to see if have to take option C or option D, then I have to...oh damn i missed my punish window"

-You had armored wake ups that you can mash and don't require meter. Now you need meter and split second timing to execute it in a super high pressure situation just to get someone off you.

-Meter burning jumps is an option? Really?

-This one might just be for the old guys out there, but characters felt like their characters. Now you have Kung Lao with no teleport. Mileena with no full screen projectile. Really?

The list goes on and on, I feel that every single game is just becoming more and more complex. Like where does it end? Will Mk2 have 3 meters, 5 different types of blocks and 40 variations for each character? Does all the extra complexity actually translate to more fun?

 

I'm curious - I would say MK1 falls under the "easy to learn, hard to master" bucket, as well. There are plenty of characters that have really simple gameplans, even more so depending on kameo choice. Would people disagree?

So many of the mechanics you can just choose not to interact with, if you don't want to. The best example is that no one ever does the uppercut counter hit mechanic, but at a lot of levels of the game you really don't need to know how to up block, flawless block, wave dash, or even tech throws.

There's lots to learn that will make your experience better, everyone learned really quick how to punish Sareena use on block for example, but even with stuff like that you could just not lab it and respect it, and its not going to hurt you too much outside of higher levels of play.

The only thing I disagree with about this is that I don't think you should be able to ignore a character's central gimmick and treat it as optional. To me that means that the devs didn't have a strong enough sense of how to balance the archetypes, so they kinda threw gimmicks out there and put the onus on the players to figure out how useful they are. Again, my knowledge is outdated so they may have changed these things, but here are a few examples:

• Johnny's hype should be central to his gameplan, not a weird fringe benefit you never see.
• Ashrah needs more reasons to go dark.
• It used to be hard to go invisible as Reptile which is straight up goofy. I know this got better, but it also bothers me that it goes away on block when Smoke's doesn't.
• The fact that Reiko has a great projectile is ridiculous.
• Rain players help me out here, but I got the impression at least early on that his portals were kinda useless for most players?

It's one thing if you choose to not get good at flawless block to try to get to that next level of play, but I really don't like characters that have cool-on-paper abilities that no one ends up using. IMO, that's worse than just not having those options at all.

 

• Johnny's hype should be central to his gameplan, not a weird fringe benefit you never see.
• Ashrah needs more reasons to go dark.
• It used to be hard to go invisible as Reptile which is straight up goofy. I know this got better, but it also bothers me that it goes away on block when Smoke's doesn't.
• The fact that Reiko has a great projectile is ridiculous.
• Rain players help me out here, but I got the impression at least early on that his portals were kinda useless for most players?

The thing with Hype is that Johnny can easily go into it and can get lots of strong combos or setplay but the attacks that build Hype are so long that realistically he can only use them either during long stuns or after ending a round, so to fix it imo they should allow you to do the Nutpunch Hype one after the normal one and he should be allowed to block halfway through the Shadow Kick/Rising Star ones at the cost of not building up as much meter
Rain's portals suffer from a similar issue as their only uses are building up tons of meter after long stuns or for a rare HTB setup in the corner, this could be fixed imo by allowing him to put down 2 Portals at once using meter and allow his specials to be canceled into a Portal or Confluence Beam

 

I think what this thread misses is that as far back as the SF2 series, fighting games have always had tons of complexity and the only difference now is that most of it is intended, a lot of the mechanics and complicated stuff from old games was due to bugs or glitches or exploits but now developers are well aware of these things and adding them because they want to instead of on accident, leading them to be more important and known than if they weren't

Just to name some examples from the arcade MKs

• Glitch Jabs (MK1)
• Relaunch Combos (UMK3)
• Run Jab Pressure (MK3)
• Block Jab Infinites (MK2)
• Instant Air Neutral Jump Kicks (MK4)
• Max Damage Infinites (MK4)
• Randomized P1 Advantage and Recovery Frames (UMK3)
• Counter Hits (MK1)

These are just some of the mechanics that added layers to gameplay and were necessary to learn to compete in the arcade MKs (not even getting into other major FGs), the only difference with the modern ones is that they are unintended (mostly) and were harder to know due to social media not being a thing and spreading the word about them

I love these old games to death but to act like compared to modern games you can just hop in and win tournaments with casual level knowledge because they were "simple" just seems more like something someone with rose tinted glasses would say, there's tons of depth to them and even to this day people are finding tech or combos or strategies that 90s-00s players couldn't have even dreamed of finding thanks to how easy knowledge spreads these days

 

Also worth noting that a lot of the mechanics you pointed out as modern games getting too complex were also a thing in the 90s

 

I think what this thread misses is that as far back as the SF2 series, fighting games have always had tons of complexity and the only difference now is that most of it is intended, a lot of the mechanics and complicated stuff from old games was due to bugs or glitches or exploits but now developers are well aware of these things and adding them because they want to instead of on accident, leading them to be more important and known than if they weren't

Just to name some examples from the arcade MKs

• Glitch Jabs (MK1)
• Relaunch Combos (UMK3)
• Run Jab Pressure (MK3)
• Block Jab Infinites (MK2)
• Instant Air Neutral Jump Kicks (MK4)
• Max Damage Infinites (MK4)
• Randomized P1 Advantage and Recovery Frames (UMK3)
• Counter Hits (MK1)

These are just some of the mechanics that added layers to gameplay and were necessary to learn to compete in the arcade MKs (not even getting into other major FGs), the only difference with the modern ones is that they are unintended (mostly) and were harder to know due to social media not being a thing and spreading the word about them

I love these old games to death but to act like compared to modern games you can just hop in and win tournaments with casual level knowledge because they were "simple" just seems more like something someone with rose tinted glasses would say, there's tons of depth to them and even to this day people are finding tech or combos or strategies that 90s-00s players couldn't have even dreamed of finding thanks to how easy knowledge spreads these days

Less bugs is always preferred - but there's something magical about foundational mechanics being unintended. My personal favorite example was Dark Souls 1 pvp, I still believe its the best in the series and had the best community, and so much of it was built on completely broken and unintended mechanics, that had so much charm / cool factor.

 

Less bugs is always preferred - but there's something magical about foundational mechanics being unintended.

Oh yeah don't get me wrong i love that too i just wanted to make it clear that this has always been a thing regardless of how intentional they are

 

I think what this thread misses is that as far back as the SF2 series, fighting games have always had tons of complexity and the only difference now is that most of it is intended, a lot of the mechanics and complicated stuff from old games was due to bugs or glitches or exploits but now developers are well aware of these things and adding them because they want to instead of on accident, leading them to be more important and known than if they weren't

Just to name some examples from the arcade MKs

• Glitch Jabs (MK1)
• Relaunch Combos (UMK3)
• Run Jab Pressure (MK3)
• Block Jab Infinites (MK2)
• Instant Air Neutral Jump Kicks (MK4)
• Max Damage Infinites (MK4)
• Randomized P1 Advantage and Recovery Frames (UMK3)
• Counter Hits (MK1)

These are just some of the mechanics that added layers to gameplay and were necessary to learn to compete in the arcade MKs (not even getting into other major FGs), the only difference with the modern ones is that they are unintended (mostly) and were harder to know due to social media not being a thing and spreading the word about them

I love these old games to death but to act like compared to modern games you can just hop in and win tournaments with casual level knowledge because they were "simple" just seems more like something someone with rose tinted glasses would say, there's tons of depth to them and even to this day people are finding tech or combos or strategies that 90s-00s players couldn't have even dreamed of finding thanks to how easy knowledge spreads these days

No. Don't misunderstand me. I never said simpler games allow you to "hop in" and win tournaments. Becoming a decent player requires an enormous amount of work. Doesn't matter if you're playing Mk2 or Mk9. And being able to win tournaments seems to me like it would require a level of dedication that frankly I've never even come close to possessing.

Maybe I'm wrong here but all I'm saying is that as the games get intentionally more complex, that enormous amount of work that it takes to become a decent player increases as well. And sometimes I feel that extra complexity gets added mostly for the sake of extra complexity, instead of being added to make the game more fun.

 

Maybe I'm wrong here but all I'm saying is that as the games get intentionally more complex, that enormous amount of work that it takes to become a decent player increases as well. And sometimes I feel that extra complexity gets added mostly for the sake of extra complexity, instead of being added to make the game more fun.

Technically it does increase the amount of work but imo it's only by a small margin and sometimes it's even easier to learn intended complexity than unintended complexity
Tho that point about adding complexity for the sake of complexity happens for sure but that's often just a product of devs wanting to experiment and find out How to add complexity while also adding fun, the issue is it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't lol
Sorry for getting you wrong earlier btw

 

As an MK9 player that never really liked MKX/MK11, MK1 felt right at home to me. In fact, I was playing MK9 before pre-ordering MK1(so I could have access to the demo) and I was directly comparing them. I was shocked to find the movement was almost identical and the overall feel of the game was extremely similar.

I understand kameos may not be everyone's cup of tea but I personally enjoy them and I'd say I love the game as much as MK9.

Also, complexity does not necessarily equate with fun. It can elevate the experience if done right or it can degrade it if not.

 

This just got put in the front page nice stuff

 

The amount of mechanics MK9 has is limited. However I dare to say that the meta is far from limited. Not to mention it has the best movement (which Reo also mentioned in one of his videos) which was very big part of the game. BS aside the characters offered much more to go on with than MK11/MK1 (MK1 exception of handful characters, like Geeras, Ermac). Of course not the entire roster, but characters like Kung Lao, Kabal, Skarlet, CSZ, Sonya, Jax, Smoke, Tsung, Cyrax, Sektor, Quan, Stryker were ahead of their time.

MK9 got the opportunity to get some unofficial treatment with support of players like Reo, Detroit Ballin and few more who helped adjusting the game.
More on the project can be found here by following this link MK9 TE. We play the game offline from time to time, and sink in for 3-4h constant kombat.

NRS is capable of remarkable character designs and engaging kombat. However they also have the talent to castrate characters, turning them into shit. MK9 is a example of classic 2D fighter with simple mechanics yet game with massive potential and freedom. MKX was many things, but foremost it set a good example that characters having three variation can play totally differently and be viable. Those would be: Kano, Kung Lao, Ermac, Millena, Cyborgs, Cage from tip of my head.

MK11 was a step back to say the least. The only interesting mechanics they manage to deliver was Flowless Block (which was IMO incomplete). Everything else was a cluster fuck.

MK1: Ambitious dream. We control two characters, some new features (mechanics) were implemented. Flowless Block was brought back. On surface we got modern game. How does the most complex Mortal Kombat performs today? Its not bad, looking back at Mk11. But I cant shake of the question "Were was Boon, when Scorpion design was being approved?" I look at Scorpion, and Ermac and cant stop wondering how did that slipped. Not to mention that a lot of Kameos are there only so that people can get annoyed, that their character is not in the roster.

Being in my mid 30's I spent five years playing Mk9 and competing, going across Europe to play - best years of my life. Another 5 years with MKX. Getting to know European players, having them over here in Poland competing in local tournaments. 10 years of commitment, those games were running in our vains.

We travel to London, to see MK11 presentation - and that day we (the five of us) we had mix feelings and soon after that chapter ended. I've been playing Tekken since launch and never looked back. Today if asked "Dude, wanna go for MK9 FT10 20$?" the answer would be "Any day, anytime - bring it".

Peace!

 

Of course not the entire roster, but characters like Kung Lao, Kabal, Skarlet, CSZ, Sonya, Jax, Smoke, Tsung, Cyrax, Sektor, Quan, Stryker were ahead of their time.

MK1: Ambitious dream. We control two characters, some new features (mechanics) were implemented. Flowless Block was brought back. On surface we got modern game. How does the most complex Mortal Kombat performs today? Its not bad, looking back at Mk11. But I cant shake of the question "Were was Boon, when Scorpion design was being approved?" I look at Scorpion, and Ermac and cant stop wondering how did that slipped. Not to mention that a lot of Kameos are there only so that people can get annoyed, that their character is not in the roster.

If you're going to pick the best character design examples to compare, you have to pick the best from both games.

Otherwise, it's easy to go back and pick examples like MK9 Kano whose design was lackluster. A character like MK1 Geras, Kenshi, etc. has much more love put into them design-wise than a character like MK9 Kabal whose most exciting feature was actually unintended gameplay/a bug.

Like, this is what passed for good Sindel gameplay a decade ago. Both games do have their examples of characters that were "left behind", and Sindel is more interesting in MK1.

I also think that MK1 Shang is far more interesting as well design-wise than he was in MK9, although he still needs some balancing love.

Even if I compare an MK9 set I really liked to the same characters playing in MK1:

• MK9: Sonic vs. Big D
• MK1: Sonic vs. Hourglass of Rain

I like the flow of Mileena's offense in MK9. But in terms of high-level gameplay, the offense in the set is far more varied in MK1, there are a lot more spacing games/footsies being played, more whiff punishing instead of just punishing teleports, and the situations are more diverse. I guess it just comes down to preferences.

 

If you're going to pick the best examples to compare, you have to pick the best examples from both games.

Otherwise, it's easy to go back and pick examples like MK9 Kano whose design was lackluster. A character like MK1 Geras, Kenshi, etc. has much more love put into them design-wise than a character like MK9 Kabal whose most exciting feature was actually unintended gameplay/a bug.

Like, this is what passed for good Sindel gameplay a decade ago. Both games have their examples of characters that were "left behind", and Sindel is far more interesting in MK1.

I also think that MK1 Shang is far more interesting as well design-wise than he was in MK9, although he still needs some balancing love.

Hey Crimson!

My intention was to highlight some characters (MK9). Of course characters like Kano, Sheeva, Jade were as you said lackluster. My appolegies, I should've been fully transparent here.

As far as setting Kabal as example: It wasnt necessary. My 2.5 years I spent playing Skarlet and I think we can both agree that she was nothing of a sort (unintended).
As for Geras, and Kenshi - I completely agree with you. Funny thing is always when we talk in-between games and character design topic is brought at some point, one particular observation surfaces "By taking a closer look at some characters, and how vibrant the design gap sets them apart, the thought as if almost completely two different people were working on these characters".


As for the Sindel reference: again I can completely agree with you, and I have seen Sindel in action with extereme Levi-cancels live back in the day.
Mk1 Sindel indeed was pimped - that goes without saying. But still looking at the game from 2011 which technology wise could be considered a relic that design was ahead of its time, though incomplete.

As for the Shang reference: Once more I completely agree with you, and I think by far this is the most advanced ST version we have ever seen. MK9's ST had fewer layers and options but it was design that set the bar for me high. Seeing MK11 version was hard to accept.

I didnt play long MK1, dropped it at Tekken Launch, but some character designs were simply pushing me away from the game. Like Scorpion, Raiden. But thats entirely different subject.

 

It still blows my mind that people weren't doing the D3 OTG after an air breaker in the year 2013.

The exchange of information makes modern gaming such a different animal now.

 

It still blows my mind that people weren't doing the D3 OTG after an air breaker in the year 2013.

The exchange of information makes modern gaming such a different animal now.

was just thinking about this the other day, specifically in regards to how your region can influence your play. this was legit fucking broken tech that no one outside of socal ever did.

 

I absolutely love and adore MK9. It's my favorite MK title and I have lots of MK games that I share lots of fond memories of.

Having said that, I will state for the record that lot of the discourse about MK9 vs. MK1 has much less to do with the actual differences between the two games and much more to do with the state of the community during the respective time periods of the two. In 2011, most of us did indeed have much more time to grind; many of us were just starting to get acclimated to things like frame data, buffs/nerfs and all that stuff, unless you came from other FG communities. More than that though, the community was not nearly as socially connected, fractured and jaded as it is today.

In 2024, most of us have played years and years of NRS MK games and watched each game have a completely different meta than the last game, watched many of our favorite characters go from heroes to zeroes and vice versa, if they were even brought back at all. Not to mention, our lives, both individually and collectively, have changed drastically. We went through an entire pandemic that claimed millions of lives, almost had WW3 several times, saw the worldwide economy take a downturn, not to mention numerous other events, both public and personal, that have changed us.

The point of what I'm saying is that we as a community are much more different now than even the two games in question are. We are more vast, have more varied backgrounds and experiences, we started with MK games at more varied places (some people have never played the Arcade classics, which still wows me). Take a second to imagine what happens when you buy your first home; you don't know what to expect, you are much more accepting of things and you tend to be more attached to the place because it reminds you of the achievement and the good memories thereof. Once you buy another home, you are more seasoned, you're much more selective about what you will and will not accept and much less forgiving about mishaps with the place. And you measure that second home against the first.



I believe that if MK9 were released today, there's no way that it would be perceived as fondly as it was back then. The top-tiers were easily much more oppressive in that game than in any game since, characters had literal TOD combos, numerous characters had resets that melted health bars, Johnny Cage in MK9 having a +40 Nutpunch and a +5 on block projectile, plus a +6 on block jab string > MK1 Johnny Khameleon. Also, matchups were much more polarizing, low tier characters literally couldn't play the game, and the online...

By contrast, if MK1 came out in 2011, it would have been GOATed by nearly everyone, or at least close to it.


I don't see enough people recognizing how we as community have changed just as much, if not more than the games have, and how those changes in us affect how we perceive our games. Out of all the NRS MK titles, there are more similarities between MK9 and MK1 than any other two games in the series. They even have many of the same issues (buggy, non-optimal online, limited offline modes, etc...). But we are different; we are more discerning, more nitpicky, more jaded, less ignorant, less forgiving and everything else. This is not to absolve NRS or WB of anything they have done in releasing MK1 or any game before that, but it's to say that any thoughtful analysis of examining the differences between MK9 and MK1 must include the changes in the audience playing them.

 

I've said this before, but I think that a big reason that a lot of people who enjoy MK9 Enjoyed MK9 was because mostly likely at the time MK9 came out they were likely in their teens or early 20s, it was probably one of their first "modern" era fighting game, and they had a lot more time to pour into the game and get good and enjoy it. It was also one of the first times there was a legit competitive MK game that could actually sustain a competitive community and be a legit tournament game, and it was really early in the NRS scene's life, so there were just a lot more positive vibes in general. MK9 was a plucky underdog of the FGC without the the weight of any expectations. There wasn't much of anything to live up to.

It was also a smaller scene, which likely made it feel a bit more close knit if you were someone who was in the know, and the average casual knew way less about things like frame data, optimal combos, and fighting game fundamentals, so if you were someone who actually took the time to learn that stuff you probably were pretty good and rocked it online.

Nowadays someone who grew up with MK9 is likely in their late 20s or 30s, they probably don't have the time to keep up and put into the newer fighting games because they have other things like career/family/other hobbies, and nowadays the overall talent pool is deeper and casuals are better from having better training modes and better resources like Twitter/YouTube, so they're probably not able to win or succeed at the same rate they did when playing MK9, which probably also makes the newer game a less enjoyable experience.

I agree with your talking points, but there are more relevant factors in my opinion.

Mortal Kombat 9 has clearly defined archetypes, hence players were able to fully express themselves while playing their favorite character. Certain players and their character stood out (i.e., REO's Kabal, Perfect Legend's Kung Lao, Pig's Kenshi, etc.) while gameplay styled varied greatly among players who used the same character, (i.e., Tom's vs. Denzell's Sub, 16 Bit's vs. CD Sr.'s Kitana, my Freddy vs. Clint's, etc.) At that time, the community was ecstatic to watch these players, their character, their gameplay style as well as the storyline and the drama. From Perfect Legend's villainy to Tom Brady's antics to 16 Bit's popoffs, such personalities have not been observed or experienced since Mortal Kombat 9.

Perhaps most importantly, players took a while to solve the meta, particularly after big patches, which were scarce. Obviously, you can attribute this reason to a small scene and/or to the infancy of information on social media. However, Mortal Kombat 9 had many twists and turns throughout its lifespan (i.e., Kabal being ranked as mid tier after he had lost his block infinite combos to players believing that Nightwolf was top 10). People perceived zoning to dominate the meta when characters like Freddy and Kenshi were winning, yet when Johnny and Sonya were winning, people perceived rush down to dominate the meta. When Kabal, Cyrax, and Kung Lao were winning, people perceived the characters to be broken and unbeatable.

Although I remember Mortal Kombat 9 fondly because of my top 8 placing at EVO2K12, I am always the first one to tell everyone that the game has not aged well whatsoever. Obviously, the game has a plethora of problems that no competitive fighting game player would tolerate in 2024. Nonetheless, you can make the argument that the game was released at the right time and was played in the right regions. Personally, I will always remember Mortal Kombat 9 for the players, the personalities, the local scenes, the character archetypes, and, of course, the drama.

 

I

I prefer the more simple fighting games that have far less stuff to memorize, where the execution isn’t super high, but that also have a lot of depth and a large skill gap.

This seems to be the prevailing design philosophy for modern fighting games, since the SF V generation. SF6 & Tekken 8 & Strive are all examples of legacy titles that have tried to make their games more straight forward.

A lot gets lost. If you play Strive I urge you to go to a weekly and try out Xrd or AC+R. You don’t get deleted in three interactions, it feels more skill based and expressive. Tekken and MK also went in two directions to make their games more straight forward. Since Tekken 6 there’s been power creep, where characters no longer have legacy weaknesses. Archetypes were somewhat toned down. Homing attacks were implemented to punish side steppers. In MK since MK 11 it seems like characters have become disempowered. It feels boiled down into a strike throw oriented game (similar to where strive was when it was released).

 

I agree with your talking points, but there are more relevant factors in my opinion.

Mortal Kombat 9 has clearly defined archetypes, hence players were able to fully express themselves while playing their favorite character. Certain players and their character stood out (i.e., REO's Kabal, Perfect Legend's Kung Lao, Pig's Kenshi, etc.) while gameplay styled varied greatly among players who used the same character, (i.e., Tom's vs. Denzell's Sub, 16 Bit's vs. CD Sr.'s Kitana, my Freddy vs. Clint's, etc.) At that time, the community was ecstatic to watch these players, their character, their gameplay style as well as the storyline and the drama. From Perfect Legend's villainy to Tom Brady's antics to 16 Bit's popoffs, such personalities have not been observed or experienced since Mortal Kombat 9.

Perhaps most importantly, players took a while to solve the meta, particularly after big patches, which were scarce. Obviously, you can attribute this reason to a small scene and/or to the infancy of information on social media. However, Mortal Kombat 9 had many twists and turns throughout its lifespan (i.e., Kabal being ranked as mid tier after he had lost his block infinite combos to players believing that Nightwolf was top 10). People perceived zoning to dominate the meta when characters like Freddy and Kenshi were winning, yet when Johnny and Sonya were winning, people perceived rush down to dominate the meta. When Kabal, Cyrax, and Kung Lao were winning, people perceived the characters to be broken and unbeatable.

Although I remember Mortal Kombat 9 fondly because of my top 8 placing at EVO2K12, I am always the first one to tell everyone that the game has not aged well whatsoever. Obviously, the game has a plethora of problems that no competitive fighting game player would tolerate in 2024. Nonetheless, you can make the argument that the game was released at the right time and was played in the right regions. Personally, I will always remember Mortal Kombat 9 for the players, the personalities, the local scenes, the character archetypes, and, of course, the drama.

Best time in the NRS scene's history. Although, I would lump in the injustice 1 era as well (2011-2014). The community personalities, the drama, the callouts, the hype. I miss it all. Following that stuff back that was great.