hatyr
ball roll enjoyer.
I really like this team. Frost is considered by most to not just be a weak Kameo but a bad Kameo. She lacks an ambush, isn't as versatile as other Kameo options, and Frost Orb is too slow (68f) to get much started with most of the roster. However, the massive hit advantage of Ermac's DB1 EX unlocks not just safe Orb setups but a mix-up vortex if meter and Kameo resources are on deck.
FORWARD THROW
Hit advantage: 5
Damage: 120
Nothing special here. Average damage and +5 at nearly fullscreen distance. If the opponent is cornered, the distance is just outside of F2 range but optimal S2 range. S2 will also anti-air them if they wakeup trying to jump out of the corner, but it is a High so be wary.
SNOW FLAKES / FROST ORB
Input: BK
Startup: 68f
Hit level: Mid
Hit advantage: 75f to 235f (combo starter)
Block advantage: 11f to 171f (in the context of the vortex mix-up, Orb is ~+70 or higher)
Damage: 60
VORTEX: INTRO
Frost is one of the few Kameos that enable the classic Ermac vortex. It can be resource-intensive, as the setup costs a bar of meter for DB1 EX and half of the Kameo meter for a Frost Orb, but forces the opponent into an armor-breaking mix-up between overhead, low, and throw, and loops back into itself, hence the vortex, for as long as you have resources.
There is no claim here that this particular vortex setup is the best or most optimal in any way. There is crazier and probably better tech out there but this is the version I’ve been tinkering with and think I’m personally settling on for now. We're still in the early Ermac era so I expect refinement as time goes on.
VORTEX: THE SETUP
It's pretty straight-forward stuff: end a combo with DB1 EX, use whatever you want to kill some frames and build a little meter (I use FDB3 usually), walk back if necessary – I’ll explain that part in more detail shortly – summon Frost Orb, walk forward and mix as they stand up.
Ermac has a lot of combo paths and some leave him closer to the opponent than others after the DB1 EX. So, most situations require walking backwards before the Frost Orb summon to create some space and time for it to travel. The Orb not only needs to hit, it needs to hit second so that we get the freeze and subsequent conversion, and if it doesn’t have enough distance then it’s at risk of hitting before the mix-up or even completely missing some forward-advancing wake-ups.
B24~BF3~FF j123 4~DB1 EX leaves Ermac at an ideal spacing for this setup. Make note and try to create this same distance by walking backward before summoning the Frost Orb. Also note that this doesn't need to be to-the-pixel levels of precision. It's hard to demonstrate because the in-game camera zooms depending on distance and characters sway due to animations, but the general idea is here.
The real nuance with regard to spacing is the variety of armored special moves should they choose to wakeup. You will need some matchup knowledge and practice to get consistent at always beating armored options – forward-advancing armored options in particular – as the Orb moves so slow that it can't catch up with moves like Sub-Zero Slide, Tanya Spinning Kicks, Johnny Shadow Kick, etc if your spacing is too close (Orb will go over them then start to track from behind). If they are conditioned to not wakeup then this all becomes quite a bit easier.
(WIP)
Before moving on to the mix-up, remember that DB1 EX does damage twice: once when the move hits and again when the opponent hits the ground. For example, 212 B24~BF3~FF 12~DB1 EX looks like it does more damage (254.92) than 212 4~BF3~FF 4 DB1 EX (252.19) but, the former actually nets less damage after the scaling of the final ground hit (274.17 vs 276.03, respectively).
VORTEX: THE MIX-UP
Once the Frost Orb is en route, the opponent is forced into a mix-up between overhead (F2), low (B4), and throw, all of which provide combos allowing Ermac to repeat the vortex.
Throw (10f) and B4 (15f) have relatively similar timings, which is to react to the opponent standing up (shortly after their toes touch the ground). The beautiful thing about this is since it's based on a reaction to them standing, Delay Wakeup is futile and only delays the mix-up since Frost Orb is still active.
The throw can be escaped, of course, but the Orb still hits. Unfortunately, the knockback doesn't allow Ermac to follow up with anything besides Fatal Blow (scaled down to ~127 total damage), thus ending the vortex.
F2 is the slowest option (23f) but provides the biggest reward. Since it's special-cancelable, F2 into a fully-charged BF1 (notated as BF[1]) will combo since the Orb hits in between. This not only gives Ermac more damage during the subsequent conversion, it generates a little meter. However, due to its slow startup, it must be timed earlier (just as their toes touch the ground) and from max-range BF1 can whiff after the F2. Delay Wakeup will avoid the F2 but they're forced to block the still-active Frost Orb (>+80).
VORTEX: THE CONVERSION
These are not necessarily optimal. I just know they work, especially after the knockdown after the throw mix-up option.
End any of the below with 12~DB1 EX to repeat vortex or 1231+3 for damage. The 212 combo can be ended with 4~DB1 EX for a little more damage.
Throw: 212 4~BF3~FF ender
Low: B24~BF3~FF ender (short combo; frozen with weird gravity due to B4)
Overhead: F2~BF[1] B24~BF3~FF ender
VORTEX: WHAT IF THEY JUST BLOCK?
If they wakeup blocking with no Delay Wakeup, Orb hits second at >+70. As mentioned earlier, if they Delay Wakeup, the Orb is still active and you're quite a bit more plus (I see ranges from 88-125ish frames in practice mode).
VORTEX: IS IT WORTH IT?
Short answer: Personally? Yes.
Long answer:
The below table assumes the combos from the VORTEX: THE CONVERSION section are used after a successful mix-up. Only an example to give an idea of cumulative damage. To reiterate:
Throw: 185.89 for vortex; 199.79 for damage
212 4~BF3~FF ender
Low: 260.16 for vortex; 285.9 for damage
B24~BF3~FF ender
Overhead: 315.97 for vortex; 343.76 for damage
F2~BF[1] B24~BF3~FF ender
At face value, this damage mostly looks underwhelming but it can add up rather quickly.
Columns starting with OH DMG forward represent the cumulative damage (SETUP DMG + damage from whatever combo you did from the above list) and represents only one cycle of the vortex.
Throw: 185.89 for vortex; 199.79 for damage
212 4~BF3~FF ender
Low: 260.16 for vortex; 285.9 for damage
B24~BF3~FF ender
Overhead: 315.97 for vortex; 343.76 for damage
F2~BF[1] B24~BF3~FF ender
At face value, this damage mostly looks underwhelming but it can add up rather quickly.
Columns starting with OH DMG forward represent the cumulative damage (SETUP DMG + damage from whatever combo you did from the above list) and represents only one cycle of the vortex.
SETUP | SETUP DMG | OH DMG | OH VORTEX | LOW DMG | LOW VORTEX | THROW DMG | THROW VORTEX |
212 4~BF3~FF 12~DB1 EX | 272.68 | 616.44 | 588.65 | 558.58 | 532.84 | 472.47 | 458.57 |
F4~DB2 j2 42~DB2F j2 4~BF3~FF 12~DB1 EX | 276.48 | 620.24 | 592.45 | 562.38 | 536.64 | 476.27 | 462.37 |
12~BF1~FF F4~DB2 j1 j122 B24~DB1 EX | 294.31 | 638.07 | 610.28 | 580.21 | 554.47 | 494.10 | 480.20 |
B24~BF3~FF j123 4~DB1 EX | 299.88 | 643.64 | 615.85 | 585.78 | 560.04 | 499.67 | 485.77 |
12~BF3~FF j122 B24~DB1 EX | 304.31 | 648.07 | 620.28 | 590.21 | 564.47 | 504.10 | 490.20 |
For the sake of example, let's assume two things: you're facing an opponent with 1000 health and at some point during the round you get a S2 whiff punish. Seems super reasonable. This leads to the first Frost Orb setup for 272.68 damage. You open them up with the throw, Orb hits, and you convert for 185.89 damage because you repeat the vortex. You gottem with the throw again but, at this point, you may or may not be out of meter but you are definitely out of Kameo resources so you close out with the damage ender for 199.79. That's a combined 658.36 damage for full Kameo and two bars of meter. But it's also from a lower-damaging setup and throw has the worst combo scaling out of the three mix options (because it's pretty cheap, let's be real).
Conversely, if nothing changed about the above scenario except that throw is replaced with overhead both vortex cycles, that's a cumulative 932.41 damage. If this all started with a 7-frame S1 punish, that's 964.04 damage.
So, yes. Personally, I think the potential for almost all of my opponent's health for two bars of meter, all my Kameo, and some other fun mind games is worth it if setplay also suites your playstayle.
ICE KRASH
Input: K
Startup: 24f
Hit level: Mid
Hit advantage: 45f (safe jump)
Block advantage: 4f (special-cancel); -20 (reversal/wakeup)
Damage: 60
Ice Krash is a great, plus on block poke that also has the benefit of being a mid. On hit, you're at perfect jump-in distance with enough hit advantage (45f) for a safe jump. It has some invincibility frames which make it an ok wakeup option at a distance but will be regularly stuffed when used it against any decent oki. If blocked when used as a wakeup option, it's -20 with some pushback.
The cooldown is half that of Frost Orb, so don't be afraid to sprinkle this in as a poke or at the end of a string as the meter should be back in time for a Frost Orb should you open them up shortly after. Unfortunately, Ermac has no true blockstrings with Ice Krash; all have a gap large enough for an armored reversal and most will trade (or worse) with 7-framers, so long as it doesn't whiff due to pushback.
GAP = ICE KRASH STARTUP (24f) - CANCEL ADVANTAGE + 1 (first Ice Krash active frame)
ATTACK | CANCEL ADVANTAGE | GAP |
S1 | 16 | 9 |
12 | 16 | 9 |
S2 | 18 | 7 |
21 | 17 | 8 |
S3 | 20 | 5 |
S4 | 16 | 9 |
B2 | 15 | 10 |
B24 | 16 | 9 |
F2 | 16 | 9 |
D1 | 10 | 15 |
D3 | 9 | 16 |
D4 | 9 | 16 |
The pushback on block is also inconsistent across the cast. Testing with 12~K, most characters are left at max-S2 distance¹, while others just outside of that range², and others pushed back to max-BF2 distance³. Needs to be tested more thoroughly overall, but Peacemaker in particular can be left in S2 distance if Ice Krash is special-canceled as late as possible, while doing it early (just dailing it in after your string) gives more pushback. I couldn't duplicate this with anyone else (yet).
¹ (everyone not listed below)
² Shang Tsung, Raiden, Kenshi, Peacemaker*
³ Rain, General Shao, Smoke, Sub-Zero, Li Mei, Johnny Cage, Kung Lao, Geras, Omni-Man, Havik
ICE KARPET
Input: FK
Startup: 26f
Hit Level: Low
Hit advantage: 91f to 106f (combo starter)
Block advantage: -10f to -28
Damage: 20
A quintessential high risk/high reward option, Ice Karpet is a fullscreen low but has never been a great mixup tool due to its slow startup frames. Even with Ermac, mixing up the B24 overhead (15f) with B2~FK (26f) still leaves an 11f fuzzy block window, which is pretty bad. But Ermac has BF1 which can be special-canceled from B2 and is also dash-cancelable which is pretty good. So, instead of the obvious overhead/low fuzzy timing, if the opponent does commit to the fuzzy block timing then they open themselves up to B2~BF1 dash-cancels (-3 on block). This is enough of an additional layer to make that 11f fuzzy not so awful.
If B2 hits, Ice Karpet will still connect but the B2 falling hit animation gives you a weird freeze position. You can still convert with B24 even though they're frozen so low to the ground (B2~FK [weird feeze] dash B24~BF3~FF 1231+3 for 272.84 dmg).
If B2 is blocked and Ice Karpet hits, proceed with your normal bnb. You have enough hit advantage to FDB3 and still connect a S2. If the Kameo meter was full when Ice Karpet was used, it recharges in time to still use Frost Orb for two vortex repetitions.
A raw Frost Karpet from fullscreen has enough hit advantage for Ermac to whiff a DB4U (as to not break the freeze), recover, and still convert with a S1. Frost Karpet is currently bugged (assumedly) as when the opponent is cornered, the freeze from Ice Karpet prevents DB4 from connecting. If DB4 is done soon enough, Ermac still has time to recover and convert with 212.
FROSTY'S REVENGE
Input: [K]
Startup: 30f
Hit level: High (all 5 hits)
Hit advantage: 29f
Block advantage: -1f
Damage: 20 per hit, scaled by each previous hit (90.49 if all connect)
12.5 chip damage per hit gives this ability some use in Last Breath chip-death situations. A block string like 12~BF1~FF F4~DB2 j2 12~[K] is nearly 100 damage in chip (92.5) provided they don't Flawless Block or avoid the non-jailing Frosty's Revenge.
(WIP)
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