X-Ray OS on opponent's wakeup

[QjonPL]

The idea of X-Ray/EX OS as a wakeup attack counter was mentioned in some videos on TYM board, but I haven't seen any taking Ermac into lab, so I decided to create one.

The core of this "new tech" is that when you knock the opponent down, you can counter wakeup attack with a meaty string cancelled into X-Ray. This situation is an option select, because if the opponent decides to WA, the game will recognize the string as a hit, so X-Ray will come out, nullifying opp's wakeup attack, even with armor; if he decides to lay down or techroll, chosen string will whiff, X-Ray won't come out and we will have time to block.

In Ermac's case the best option is to juggle the enemy with TKS, j.K~TP j.K~TP ff. With this combo we're not sacrificing much damage (only 4% less than ending with 2,2~TKP bnb, and more than ending with f+4 reset). After finishing a combo dash, then 1,2~X-Ray (buffered). If the opponent uses wakeup attack, he'll get hit by X-Ray:

If the opp decides to stand up blocking, lay down or techroll, 1,2 will whiff - the recovery isn't bad, so we can block his next move. The only threat comes from techroll+wakeup attack, because whiff recovery won't let us block in time, so in that situation we can try and buffer TKP (which could be beat by armored move; eh, no risk no fun). Not every move can be countered that way, for example teleports (Scorpion's, Kung's etc), this setup also tends to whiff on Reptile's elbow dash.
The timing of dash, 12~X-ray slightly varies between characters, in some cases it's better to use 3~X-Ray (but the whiff recovery is worse).

What do you guys think about that setup?

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Same as tech from Vulcan hades with Stryker. I like it though...I'm gonna be looking into this with NW too

 

[Mikemetroid]

More and More of these are going to be found. This will seriously change the game's offense style.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

I just wish you guys knew how bad and unreliable this is. I've tested this thing in and out for hours with tons of different characters. I was also working on a new video but then after putting it to the test with and against everyone I realized this wasn't as reliable as I initially thought.

Also, Roko and QjonPL don't take into consideration the fact that the opponent can just roll back into wake up attack.

I think this has potential for a few characters but it also requires specific setups if you don't have a move that gives you an untechable knockdown. Ideally you should try and come up with a setup that also covers roll back into wake up or makes you safe/able to block in time if they do. So sometimes it's better not to finish the string.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Hmmmmm...makes me think... Nw grab is untechable so d1 eh grab...hmmmm

 

[zaf]

I will def still need to try this out

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[QjonPL]

So I've messed around more and I've found slightly better option to set up this trap; using this combo
3,1_1,2~TKS, j.K~TP ff 3~TP d1~X-Ray
Why is it better? There's no strict timing for d1, you just have to do it ASAP after the second teleport, timing doesn't vary between characters, techroll+WA doesn't beat this, because second teleport autocorrects the distance during opp's rolling, so the timing for d1 is exactly the same as when opponent doesn't tech, d1 has better recovery, so we're much safer, if the opp decides to lay longer with d+BLK, we can confirm u+4 after d1 whiff, which will hit him.
Cons: still doesn't hit teleports etc, to beat the fastest wakeup attacks d1 must be done literally justframe after TP (I was able to beat KL's spin&EX spin, but couldn't hit Kano's balls), starting juggle does only 26-28% dmg (without j.P), so the whole setup takes somewhat over 60%.
So is this useful? IMO the more options, the merrier.

 

[Skkra]

It's a good start. Honestly though, for this to be truly effective, it's going to need an untechable knockdown. Option Selects in SF4 are really strong because they cover a vast majority of the opponents options. Generally, they'll even cover things like wakeup backdashing, which provides a few frames of invincibility.

In SF4, you can't safely roll away a very good distance from your opponent and THEN still get wakeup invincibility. In MK9, you can, which actually nullifies a lot of potential wakeup option selects.

My first question then would be: what is the best way for Ermac to get an untechable knockdown after a juggle?

 

[QjonPL]

Ermac's ONLY untechable knd move is his EX TKP, so we're using meter and cannot setup an OS XRay trap (lack of armored moves sux)

 

[Roko1985]

I just wish you guys knew how bad and unreliable this is. I've tested this thing in and out for hours with tons of different characters. I was also working on a new video but then after putting it to the test with and against everyone I realized this wasn't as reliable as I initially thought.

Also, Roko and QjonPL don't take into consideration the fact that the opponent can just roll back into wake up attack.

I think this has potential for a few characters but it also requires specific setups if you don't have a move that gives you an untechable knockdown. Ideally you should try and come up with a setup that also covers roll back into wake up or makes you safe/able to block in time if they do. So sometimes it's better not to finish the string.

If they roll back they can't use wake up and your X-ray will not come out.

 

[Konqrr]

The problem with a lot of OS in MK is that the OS comes out if the opponent blocks. So these strings you guys are coming up with have to only hit them out of a wakeup and not wakeup into block.

Good start though.

 

[Tom Brady]

If they roll back they can't use wake up and your X-ray will not come out.

yes they can.. you can wake up attack out of a tech roll. in this vid if they get up and block, you're dead. if they tech and wake up attack, you still get hit. the only thing this set up covers is if they get right up and wake up attack. you are also not factoring in all wake up attacks like raiden and KL teleport, they are attacks that will NOT be hit by any hit in your OS because of the invincibility on wake up on these attacks when done as a wake up attack.

so far all of the OS that i have seen do more harm then good and will end up costing you vs an opponent who is educated on this.

 

[Skkra]

so far all of the OS that i have seen do more harm then good and will end up costing you vs an opponent who is educated on this.

That's really what it seems like. This game does NOT lend itself to option selects like Street Fighter does. The engine just isn't built the same. Something like a safe-jump HK OS'd into shoryuken that's safe against 3-frame reversals... MK9 just isnt the same way.

Honestly, I'd kinda prefer it that way. I personally think option selects cheapen a game because instead of really having to read an opponent, you do a single safe OS that covers several scenarios.

 

[Skkra]

That said, has anyone here messed around with Ermac's EX TKS option select as an anti-crossup? As I'm sure everyone knows, TKS will catch someone trying to cross you up even if they're basically directly above you.

Lets say you're knocked down, and your opponent is on your left side. If you're anticipating a crossover JIP, you would input down, left + 1 +block. If your opponent hasn't crossed over, you'll simply block, since down, forward + 1 has no command associated with it. If the opponent HAS jumped over you though, you'll get an EX TKS.

 

[QjonPL]

in this vid if they get up and block, you're dead. if they tech and wake up attack, you still get hit. the only thing this set up covers is if they get right up and wake up attack.

That's why I proposed a new setup for that OS with my second post, here's the video:

(I know that d1 goes under wakeup Gotcha, but that would've worked on other WA anyway)
Now if they WA, they eat Xray, if they roll+WA, they eat XRay, if they roll, lay down or stand up blocking, I have time to block because d1 recovery is quite fast, Ermac remains safe.

you are also not factoring in all wake up attacks like raiden and KL teleport, they are attacks that will NOT be hit by any hit in your OS because of the invincibility on wake up on these attacks when done as a wake up attack.

We all realise this, that's why I mentioned it won't be useful in every matchup.

so far all of the OS that i have seen do more harm then good and will end up costing you vs an opponent who is educated on this.

That's just another option, it's better to have more than less of them, oy?

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Dude, the D1 in that video would will still hit even if the opponent did absolutely nothing. And so your X-ray would still come out and be blocked. That's what you people don't seem to get.

The poke NEEDS to completely whiff (be out of range). It has to make contact with the wake up attack MOVING FORWARD ONLY. That's why it doesn't work on every character but only on specific ones. The reason why it works on Kabal and Jax is because they move forward with their wake up attacks, coming into contact with an otherwise out of range poke. But here you're doing a point blank range D1 which means anything you have in the buffer will always come out unless they stay grounded or roll back. Which is not what you want obviously.

Trust me I probably tested this more than anyone else on the forum.

 

[Skkra]

What Vulcan said. The hits need to be guaranteed to whiff entirely, otherwise the X-Ray is wasted as a blockstring. Something like the anti-crossup EX TKS option select I posted above seems a lot more useful in this game than attempting to X-Ray a wakeup, at least for now. Not that I'm saying as a community we should stop exploring! Only that the MK9 engine seems a lot less likely to end up yielding a bunch of braindead option selects. (which I think is a good thing!)

Wakeups in this game are a lot more invincible and a lot harder to OS than in SF4, particularly because in SF4, pressing multiple buttons at once has a very convenient order of precedence that lets you, for instance, OS a throw tech combined with a sweep to catch someone in case they backdash.

 

[zaf]

I use tks as an anti cross up option on my knockdown, but it doesnt need to be ex. It does grab people mid jump and I fail to see a bad reason for doing this. Unless put into an untechable knockdown but even still, I think it would work.




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[Skkra]

I use tks as an anti cross up option on my knockdown, but it doesnt need to be ex. It does grab people mid jump and I fail to see a bad reason for doing this. Unless put into an untechable knockdown but even still, I think it would work

The only reason I was saying you could EX it is because that way, if your timing isnt perfect and the TKS doesn't come out, you option select into block and are safe. Doing it non-EX, there is the possibility that you'd do a single jab in the wrong direction and then eat a JIP combo.

 

[QjonPL]

Shouldn't then the jab autocorrect, so you're gaining standing 1 AA?

 

[Roko1985]

yes they can.. you can wake up attack out of a tech roll. in this vid if they get up and block, you're dead. if they tech and wake up attack, you still get hit. the only thing this set up covers is if they get right up and wake up attack. you are also not factoring in all wake up attacks like raiden and KL teleport, they are attacks that will NOT be hit by any hit in your OS because of the invincibility on wake up on these attacks when done as a wake up attack.

so far all of the OS that i have seen do more harm then good and will end up costing you vs an opponent who is educated on this.

They can....and they still have the ivincibility!!!!???? OMG that is so imbarresing that i didn't know that. I am sorry then, but i do land it often with Scorpion near the corner against some characters like Sonya, Jax, Shang and Sindel.

 

[Metzos]

Cool stuff. But tbh with you guys i find this to be extremely risky. Your reaction must be extremely fast. Good stuff though i m gonna try and search it more thoroughly.

 

[zaf]

I see then. And yea wont it just become an auto corrected 1?



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[Skkra]

Shouldn't then the jab autocorrect, so you're gaining standing 11 AA?

Well, thats kinda the reasoning behind doing the EX one to OS into block. You're trying to catch an opponent who is crossing you up, but the timing can be tricky to catch them right above, before they land that JIP. OS'ing TKP along with block means that if you would otherwise whiff the attack in the wrong direction, you'll just stand block the JIP instead.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

What is OS?