Characters Held Hostage By One Variation

[Chernyy Volk]

This is an issue that I'm sure existed in MKX, but it's more frustrating in this game because it's fixable and NRS won't just do it (although hopefully maybe they will after pro-komp finals or after NEC). My topic title isn't all encompassing, but I do kind of want to ramble about the things about the variation system that most irk me, but we're gonna start with the topic title.

There are a few characters in this game that I think frankly, are the epitome of shitty design. This is COMPLETELY aside from them being good or bad characters, the problem is WHY they are good (or bad) rests on some bewilderingly stupid design decisions. They're being held hostage by their best variation due to ABSOLUTELY absurd move combinations, or balance issues on those variations with single tools that I can't believe flew under the radar.

Examples of characters who I think are stuck in this problem.

Scorpion
Raiden
Erron Black
Jax
Kung Lao
Sonya
Nightwolf
Jacqui to some extent
Kitana

So there's a few different "types" of these characters.

1: The best tools are all on one variation

2: The base character can't be good because it puts the one variation over the top

1 and 2 are both fixable, and I think NRS should consider for the games next big update that they either buff universal kits, buff variation specific tools, make certain tools just vanilla across the board or re-arrange equippable moves between variations. I'm gonna talk about two ends of the spectrum in Scorpion and Erron specifically just as an example.

Scorpion:

Everyone knows I think Scorpion is not very good and I believe this is primarily due to his base kit being lackluster. Why is it lackluster? It's because I'm convinced this character is built entirely around Reborn. Scorpion CAN'T be good because of the hit confirms and safety Reborn offers. I would GLADLY give up the whole fucking variation for the rest of Scorpions character to be better. No cap. I almost want the cancels removed from the game entirely and demon slam made universal.

Erron:

Erron has a variation that has meterless combos, rushdown, cancels, mix, anti-zoning, zoning etc. His other two variations are a half baked cancel variation and a setup variation without practical means to do so. Erron is also much more complicated to dissect than Scorpion.

First of all, the new string ability should be just flat out vanilla on this character. I think it's really stupid this isn't a thing with him to begin with. He gets a general zoning/footsie element with these AND he gets universal corner combo ability with B2U4222. He should have this base.

Second of all, scud shot being on his variation with all his best tools is just dumb design. This move is so good that it should inherently have a drawback, worse tools on said variation etc. Personally, here is what I'd do to Erron.

Outworld Gunslinger is base

52 Kard Pickup is now enhanced rifle stance and acid pour

Barking Irons is fine

Locked N' Loaded should have enhanced rifle stance and Netherbeast trap

Scud Shot can be removed and saved for a gunslinger variation down the line THAT ALREADY EXISTS IN THE IN-GAME PRESETS.

Anyways, what do you guys think? I wanna also make a thread about variation/character reworks etc.

 

[versavices]

Dude Kung Lao's 2nd ability in Lotus Fist is hands down the worst ability in the game. It literally extends your hat's orbit for no gain AND COSTS 2 MORE BARS. ALL 4 BARS SPENT FOR NOTHING??? LOL NRS. JUST LOL. Also, shout out to Skarlet's Blood Ritual (DBF1).

If they've let moves sit like this in the game this long, I have no hope they will fix variations in future patches. Ending my rant, I totally agree. The character-lite versions we're getting this game can only be fixed with a total revamp to how this whole system works.

 

[spidey300]

remove jacqui and kung lao from the list and you have something

 

[xWildx]

My personal theory is that these tournament “variations” are nothing more than a way to quietly balance all of the customizable moves before opening up customization to everyone.

That’s my hope, anyway. Because some of this shit just doesn’t make any sense. Why does Flippin’ Out even exist in its current state?

 

[Shale101]

I actually think the variation system has held characters hostage. In MKX the 3 variations were SET and it was one cohesive design for each variation that was mapped out. I know some didn't like this but I personally LOVED it. The problem with building characters with custom variations in mind is that there is a lot of balancing to be done with each specific special move. Certain special moves are considered to strong and conflict with other special moves.......Either you end up with a base variation already in mind with shitty swap out moves that don't really add anything or you have to really tone down the base variation to accommodate other possible strong moves. I think it's a very difficult balancing act that in theory seems fun but in reality is limiting. I would rather be limited into a set variation that was built very solid and strongly.......not one that has to keep in mind possible swap outs that will make it to strong.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Dude Kung Lao's 2nd ability in Lotus Fist is hands down the worst ability in the game. It literally extends your hat's orbit for no gain AND COSTS 2 MORE BARS. ALL 4 BARS SPENT FOR NOTHING??? LOL NRS. JUST LOL. Also, shout out to Skarlet's Blood Ritual (DBF1).

If they've let moves sit like this in the game this long, I have no hope they will fix variations in future patches. Ending my rant, I totally agree. The character-lite versions we're getting this game can only be fixed with a total revamp to how this whole system works.

Splash and Scar say Lotus Fist is top 10 hate to tell you. That's why Lao can't be good.

 

[OutworldKeith]

They need to scrap variations. Cool idea just too ambitious.

 

[kcd117]

Shang gained a third variation without having a second one. And it is also barely works btw.

 

[versavices]

Splash and Scar say Lotus Fist is top 10 hate to tell you. That's why Lao can't be good.

I think he definitely could be top 10 or top 15 but it still doesn't change the fact that his 3rd slot in Lotus Fist is comedically useless.

 

[DeftMonk]

I think he definitely could be top 10 or top 15 but it still doesn't change the fact that his 3rd slot in Lotus Fist is comedically useless.

Completely useless? I dunno about that bro. I do however think the third variation is kinda shit. It renders a lot of his strings useless and seems to be that he gains meterless damage whicch would be great if he could do anything at all with that meter. I couldn't find crap off a u2 launcher in that variation.

 

[versavices]

Completely useless? I dunno about that bro. I do however think the third variation is kinda shit. It renders a lot of his strings useless and seems to be that he gains meterless damage whicch would be great if he could do anything at all with that meter. I couldn't find crap off a u2 launcher in that variation.

What? I'm talking about the 3rd slot in variation 1 that extends the range of his orbital hat. It costs 1 offensive bar and 1 defensive bar to turn it into a worse move.

His third variation is bad but definitely not useless.

 

[Arqwart]

I feel one key thing that helps lead to this issue is that many characters seem lacking from a base kit level. Jax, Kitana, Scorpion, Raiden, Erron, and Kollector all have really underwhelming base kits that are only thoroughly complemented by singular variations.

• Jax is unga bunga style play so naturally the variation that lets him unga bunga harder is his best one (same issue as Liu)
• Kitana has shit buttons so naturally the variation with a universally safe block special with crazy chip damage is her best one
• Scorpion has no real mixup dynamic or ways to efficiently open someone up so naturally the high mobility mental fakeout variation is his best one
• Raiden is just mediocre at literally everything so naturally the variation that gives him a launcher and a teleport, two moves that would be great on literally anyone in any fighting game ever, is his best one
• Erron is kinda suicidal on block with any non-high strings so naturally his safe block cancel variation is his best one
• Kollector is a strange mix of range and low speed with minimal safety and 0 worthwhile presence from a distance so naturally his variation with a teleport and command grab mixes is his best one

Many characters, if not all of them, in this game could use one additional base kit special from their variation specials list. This would also need to be accompanied by some balance changes as not all characters would get a variation move from the pigeonhole variation moved to base kit level (such as Kitana who could use Ground War or Air Fan Flutter at a base level).

 

[Hellbringer]

Dude Kung Lao's 2nd ability in Lotus Fist is hands down the worst ability in the game. It literally extends your hat's orbit for no gain AND COSTS 2 MORE BARS. ALL 4 BARS SPENT FOR NOTHING??? LOL NRS. JUST LOL. Also, shout out to Skarlet's Blood Ritual (DBF1).

If they've let moves sit like this in the game this long, I have no hope they will fix variations in future patches. Ending my rant, I totally agree. The character-lite versions we're getting this game can only be fixed with a total revamp to how this whole system works.

Its not worse then skarlets one lol. With second hat you can atleast create a mindgame where normally your turn is over after they block the first hat but not when u amplify it cause if they dont block the second they eat +300dmg
It also gives upto 530 unbreakable dmg when you have fatal blow.

 

[versavices]

Its not worse then skarlets one lol. With second hat you can atleast create a mindgame where normally your turn is over after they block the first hat but not when u amplify it cause if they dont block the second they eat +300dmg
It also gives upto 530 unbreakable dmg when you have fatal blow.

I think the second hat amplify is baseline with Orbital Hat. And yeah, it's really good. The gear move only extends the range afaik. Which is as useless as they get.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Dude Jacqui has 3 viable variations. They might not be equally popular but all 3 are useful.

Wtf you talkin’ bout??

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

Kung Lao
Sonya
Nightwolf
Jacqui to some extent

Nope.

No Holds Barred is great. Ring Master is ridiculously good and needs to be nerfed a bit, but NHB is still tournament viable for sure.
Kung Lao's Hat Trick and Lotus Fist are both great.
Shaman is a great third variation, even if Matoka Warrior is a better variation.

Jacqui is one of the few characters in the game with Geras and Kabal (and arguably Skarlet) to have 3 viable variations. Jacqui is probably the character that works the best with the current variation system. Each of her variations offer a different playstyle and gameplan and still is really strong. Jacqui is, if not the best, one of the best designed character in MK11 and is probably the only counter argument on why variations should be scrapped from future MK games.

I even want to add Kitana in the "nope" list because I'm sure the third variation is tournament viable, especially with the universal buffs that came along with the third variation in the Terminator update.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Dude Jacqui has 3 viable variations. They might not be equally popular but all 3 are useful.

Wtf you talkin’ bout??

I was tired at the time of typing this. I have no idea what I was thinking in hindsight so yeah scrap Jacqui LOL

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Nope.

No Holds Barred is great. Ring Master is ridiculously good and needs to be nerfed a bit, but NHB is still tournament viable for sure.
Kung Lao's Hat Trick and Lotus Fist are both great.
Shaman is a great third variation, even if Matoka Warrior is a better variation.

Jacqui is one of the few characters in the game with Geras and Kabal (and arguably Skarlet) to have 3 viable variations. Jacqui is probably the character that works the best with the current variation system. Each of her variations offer a different playstyle and gameplan and still is really strong. Jacqui is, if not the best, one of the best designed character in MK11 and is probably the only counter argument on why variations should be scrapped from future MK games.

I even want to add Kitana in the "nope" list because I'm sure the third variation is tournament viable, especially with the universal buffs that came along with the third variation in the Terminator update.

I don't know a single top player that thinks Hat Trick is good and compared to Lotus Fist it really isn't. F0xy. Splash and Scar all say it's a garbage variation.

Shaman is good for counterpicking purposes yeah. I play it.

Sonya literally got nerfed in a way that was entirely to preserve Ring Master instead of preserving her character by nerfing the rings to make her less of a zoner so that Ring Master would've had more place in the game as a way to give her better zoning. She's definitely held hostage by that variation.

 

[trufenix]

I don't think you know what "held hostage" means.

 

[Gooberking]

Today, in a dramatic scene in downtown Chicago, a Jax from one realm held a variation of himself bound and at gunpoint.

Reports say he was raving saying "this ain't me! This ain't me!" And demanding to know how many of "them fakes out there?"

The episode continued on for several hours until another Jax variation arrived on scene. This much calmer and cool headed Jax variation managed to overtake the hostige taker in a incredibly destructive battle that left the building they were in in near ruins.

The to surviving Jax variations seem to be getting along well, and can even be seen in this TMZ credited photo having coffee together later on.

We hope this form variation abuse will not become more common, but in a world of many realms and realities, it's hard to know what will be.

 

[MKF30]

Raiden gets my vote for #1

 

[ABACABB]

add shang to the list

 

[Art Lean]

Forgive my ignorance, but in this game you can make your characters look (to a certain degree) how you want with a selection of three of the special moves you want... therefore why does it matter what the default variations are if you can make your own ones that are uniquely preferable to you? I think I've overwritten every default variation in my Kustomisation options with the moves I find most preferable to use, having my character look how I want it to (within the limitations of the options) and with a new variant name that is simply satisfying to me personally since I can make references that the games likely never would (ie. I usually tie into an oldschool MK reference from the Threshold years for fun - like my 'House of Qali' Jade, 'Let's Dance' Johnny Cage, 'Master of Kiba' Nightwolf or 'Kreeya's Heir' D'Vorah).

Not trolling, I'm genuinely curious why anyone cares what the default variants are when you can make your own??

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Noob Saibot.
And I ask anyone here who's actually put in the work with him to prove me wrong if I'm out of pocket, but I've spent a LOT OF TIME with him, watched a whole bunch of Honeybee's matches, done frame math and theory fighting, etc...relatively certain he should be on this list.

There's no reason not to play Seeing Double.
Shadow Slide is easily his best move across the board, and he has nothing else going well enough for him to dethrone it.
The damage you get in Dark Sabbath isn't worth the trade when he has as hard a time as he does opening opponents up. Being able to hit like a truck is redundant if you can't get up to top speed. Sickle Teleport is asking to get blown up. Spirit Ball and Teleslam combo are great, but not as great as Slide because they're both unsafe as fuck to just throw out there; Slide is not only safe, but it makes his otherwise questionable normals and strings better because you can cancel into it. You can't do anything on block with B1 1+3, F2, or B3 outside of Slide, and 212 only gets you so far.

And whatever they named his third variation, they oughta rename it "Why And Bother," because it is a fail and not even worth bringing up.

So yeah. Noob. He's up there.

 

[M2Dave]

I feel one key thing that helps lead to this issue is that many characters seem lacking from a base kit level. Jax, Kitana, Scorpion, Raiden, Erron, and Kollector all have really underwhelming base kits that are only thoroughly complemented by singular variations.

• Jax is unga bunga style play so naturally the variation that lets him unga bunga harder is his best one (same issue as Liu)
• Kitana has shit buttons so naturally the variation with a universally safe block special with crazy chip damage is her best one
• Scorpion has no real mixup dynamic or ways to efficiently open someone up so naturally the high mobility mental fakeout variation is his best one
• Raiden is just mediocre at literally everything so naturally the variation that gives him a launcher and a teleport, two moves that would be great on literally anyone in any fighting game ever, is his best one
• Erron is kinda suicidal on block with any non-high strings so naturally his safe block cancel variation is his best one
• Kollector is a strange mix of range and low speed with minimal safety and 0 worthwhile presence from a distance so naturally his variation with a teleport and command grab mixes is his best one

Many characters, if not all of them, in this game could use one additional base kit special from their variation specials list. This would also need to be accompanied by some balance changes as not all characters would get a variation move from the pigeonhole variation moved to base kit level (such as Kitana who could use Ground War or Air Fan Flutter at a base level).

In my opinion, your post is the best in this thread, but but keep in mind that adding more moves to a character's base only benefits the best variation. For example, giving more universal options to Kitana only benefits Highborn and giving more options to Scorpion only benefits Reborn so you are indirectly buffing each character's best variation. The variation system is fundamentally flawed and difficult to balance for this and many other reasons.