Combo Fallout rewarding getting hit?

[Eji1700]

So first off, pre launch gameplay so hopefully I'm missing something or it'll be changed.

2:28 and 5:55 in the vid-

To keep this short it always concerns me when you see a combo escape that can lead to rewards.

You're already escaping a combo, but in both cases shown it looks like the character who landed the big hit (a KB uppercut in one case) actually winds up punished for committing to the combo.

The obvious way to handle this is to just never commit to big damage unless the player doesn't have a defensive bar, but it's not just because "i might waste some meter" but instead "i might whiff a combo tool and get blown up". Nothing is worse than the feeling of getting full combo'd after you open them up, and that's going to be super lame to watch in practice if it's the case.

Now maybe it's a timing/visual thing that you can react to, but it's not like these are the worst players on the cast, and seeing them get punished for going for big damage is concerning. Further my understanding is you can't even really "punish" a fallout like say a GG burst if you bait/read it since it just puts you on the ground, rather than in a recover state.

 

[Arzumis]

Yea i noticed this too. You can be punished for comboing. For example Scorpions have to he scared to ever do spear midcombo if you have the bar. Everyone can probably be punished withthis mechanic. I dont like it.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

I saw a set on K&M's channel, think it was a Geras and Scorp set, but whoever was playing Geras kept falling out/air escaping right when Scorpion went to confirm into spear. Geras literally had a day and a half to get up and punish while Scorp was stuck in recovery. It pretty much devolved into a guessing game from there on out. To commit to spear or not. Like, what?!

@Superman Rz beat me by 5 seconds lol

 

[John Grizzly]

I honestly thought the Flip Out from INJ2 was pretty perfect. You could read that your opponent was going to do it and start a whole new combo on them, if so. It created a mind game. Now....it seems like you can drop drop out with no consequence. It's an odd change.

With meter building passively, you're going to see this mechanic a lot. The fact that you can drop out and have time to punish the dude who started the combo is a bit fucked. The combos are already somewhat low damage, so I'm not quite sure I see the need for it. I don't want to have to think about whether or not I should commit to finishing a combo if I might be punished for doing so. That seems dumb.

I hated the Combo Breaker mechanic too, though. I think Flip Out was absolutely perfect.

 

[Toodrunk2combo]

It does seem to cost both defense bars though, that might limit how often you can use it well enough.

 

[Arzumis]

It does seem to cost both defense bars though, that might limit how often you can use it well enough.

Still, I could see it being done like 2-3 times a match.

 

[Wetdoba]

Takes both bars. If they read it then can do something like an uppercut, get unscaled 14% on the armor as they fall out, then get a free meaty mix/pressure on them after because they wont have any meter to wake up or roll out. No one has labbed these things yet and everyone is still doing their day -50 combos. Relax

 

[Poto2222]

The Breakaway mechanic is probably the change I love the most in MK11. I think it's hella cool to add another layer to combos, where you have to plan your route and make a read if AND when the opponent is going to escape it.

I can't wait for the meta do develop in a way that we lab and figure out what are the most common Breakaway points in every character's bnb combos to strategize around that. This shit is super exciting for me!

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

Yeah you can drop out, but you loose all your wake options too...except block. That 's the gamble. Yeah you can potentially punish your opponent if they use a move that has horrible recovery, but if you use it and your opponent reads that you will, you can get blown up HARD.

Think about this in the context of Johnny Cage. If Johnny hits you for a pop up and you drop out, if the player playing johnny reads that, you are stuck in his pressure game now.

This is all about reads. we are at meta zero now. Even Bit and Dizzy will admit that they are not "high-level" right now. They are definitely the highest level we've seen on this current build, but in reality we haven't seen anything yet.

 

[zerosebaz]

I actually like this. And if Fatal Blows break armor like XRays did, you could punish your opponent heavily for attempting to escape.

 

[Tony at Home]

Breaking out of a combo now uses the same resource you use to do a wakeup attack. And the actual break out puts you on the ground where you'd need that wakeup.

This is why I like it even more than flip out.. but definitely feels like this shouldn't ever result in the offensive player getting punished for it. I'd hope they adjust the minimum knockdown time or something to prevent that.

 

[BecomingDeath13]

The break away is a lot like injustice's air escape. The major difference here is it takes all your defense to do. So it becomes this huge mind game between players. Do I break away now and lose my wakeup or wait for scorpion to throw his spear?
As the attacker you have to think too. The opponent has both defensive stocks. He can break away. Maybe instead of confirming into my spear, I'll finish the string and just okizeme his wakeup, since he has none.

This game is shaping up to be all about using your mind and I fucking love that. You're gonna be conditioning your opponent to take the throw so they don't tech wrong and eat a krush. They'll condition you to be careful to over commit to your combo so you don't get trapped in whiff recovery and get blown up for it. Mind games are something MK has been missing for a while and it's fucking fantastic to see it back.

My buddy plays Kano. In mkx, any time he would use the b312 string and I blocked it he would immediately back dash. Once I started reading the back dash, I'd forward dash with him, and eat his recovery with Sub-Zero's B12 starter. Was fucking great. Then he'd just bait the forward dash and njp my ass. Mmmmm fucking tasty.

I seriously fucking love the way they're taking this game. It's no longer about stealing your turn. You have to be methodical with your approach. You can't just mix someone to death. You're gonna have to make reads and stimulate that gray matter. Mk has gone from the Sorry! Board game, to mother fucking chess. Mmmmm Mmmm fuck

 

[Wigy]

The issue I have with this mechanic is that some characters will have super reactable launchers and maybe not any reliable way to followup without getting punished if they do drop. Other characters may have like grounded 4 hit combos that do more. It's a general mechanic that punishes a player for opening you up but will fuck over some characters more than others.

Some characters in injustice got totally fucked over by the rollouts. Other characters there was absolutely no way to even roll out (vs scarecrow cause his b3 is straight up retarded)

Looking at how fast you recover now it does seem a little nutty..

Also if they punish ya and do a long combo and knock you away by the time you get on them again they'll have defensive meter back

 

[Cobainevermind87]

There is no way the person on offense should be able to be punished for continuing a combo. I will literally shit on my floor the first time I punish a reckless slide by Subby, commit to spear, then get MY ass punished because I'm stuck there with my arm hanging out saying please hit me.

What are Scorp players supposed to do if the opponent has 2 defensive bars? Punish with a 3-4 hit string and take 10% or less? That's ridiculous.

 

[Eldriken]

We need to pay close attention to how long the defensive bars take to recover when doing an escape. They may build very slowly.

 

[BecomingDeath13]

What are Scorp players supposed to do if the opponent has 2 defensive bars? Punish with a 3-4 hit string and take 10% or less? That's ridiculous.

If you know they're gonna break they hit the ground with no meter and no way to wake up. You're giving up initial damage for pressure. Pressure that they have no escape from because they have no meter and no armor.

 

[DDustiNN]

I think it’s a great new mechanic. I love the new meter system and everything it involves.

 

[ForeverKing]

While I'm usually always the one saying "it's too early to judge things, let's wait for the game to release"

I'll admit I dont really like the how breakaway works right now. In Injustice2 when somebody tries to air escape, there was a risk/reward for both players. You have the chance of slipping out of a combo, but if somebody reads that they could just walk forward and punish the air escape with a combo. This is possible because after you use air tech you land on your feet.

With breakaway you do not land on your feet, you go straight from getting combo'd to spiraling out of the combo to the ground. So even if your opponent reads that you're going to breakaway, the most they are going to get is free pressure while you're standing up off the ground. They're not getting a full combo like they would if they read air escape from Injustice 2.

Basically the risk/reward for breakaway in MK11 right now is in the favor of the player using it aka the person getting combo'd

 

[DDustiNN]

We need to pay close attention to how long the defensive bars take to recover when doing an escape. They may build very slowly.

I’d assume it’s like the offensive meter. NRS previously stated that the meter fill rate is dependent on the power of the move that used it. So a really powerful move will cause that meter to restore much slower than a quick low power move. The combo escape probably works similarly and will cause a slow recharge rate, due to how good it is.

 

[Eldriken]

I’d assume it’s like the offensive meter. NRS preciously stated that the meter fill rate is dependent on the power of the move that used it. So a really powerful move will cause that meter to restore much slower than a quick low power move. The combo escape probably works similarly and will cause a slow recharge rate, due to how good it is.

That's why I said we need to look at it. Geras' time reversal uses both and refills slow af. I'd expect an escape to probably fill slowly, but not quite as slowly as the aforementioned ability.

 

[SaSSolino]

This is a legit worry, let's hope it gets changed.

 

[NothingPersonal]

This needs to be brought up to NRS, just in case.

 

[Marlow]

Hmmm. Good points on both sides. I guess for me it depends on how long it takes to get the resource back, and how valuable pressure ends up being.

 

[Wetdoba]

There is no way the person on offense should be able to be punished for continuing a combo. I will literally shit on my floor the first time I punish a reckless slide by Subby, commit to spear, then get MY ass punished because I'm stuck there with my arm hanging out saying please hit me.

What are Scorp players supposed to do if the opponent has 2 defensive bars? Punish with a 3-4 hit string and take 10% or less? That's ridiculous.

You could do a fully grounded string into amplified spear into fully grounded string into teleport. Thats a fully grounded combo leaving them standing for 1 bar and zero chance to break. For 2 bars you could do a grounded string into spear into string into mb teleport d2 and if they try to break they will eat the unscaled d2 which will do more damage and then have to eat a mix up or pressure after because d2 will recover first and they wont be able to wake up. Theres 1 solution and no one even has the game yet so maybe once it comes out i suggest you hit the lab and find out more

 

[Braindead]

A quick reminder that this is MK. Remember breakers in MK9 and MKX? A defender always had a guaranteed way out of combos if they had meter.

In MK11 it seems meter is more available but it's harder to break compared to MK9 and MKX.

I'd just wait and see how it plays out.