A.B.I.torial - Darkstalkers' B.B. Hood!

[HeavyNorse]

 

[neveradestroyer]

Go to hell. Now seriously. This guy went crazy on NRS titles so he can get publicity. He only critizices NRS games and every other game is a saint 'god send' animated masterpiece. GTFO

 

[Obly]

Regardless of how anyone feels about this particular guy, it's still nice to see the brilliance of one of the all-time greatest fighting game series on display.

I too would love to see Darkstalkers make a modern-day return, though I'm not sure anything Capcom would create now would do justice to the original.

 

[HeavyNorse]

Go to hell. Now seriously. This guy went crazy on NRS titles so he can get publicity. He only critizices NRS games and every other game is a saint 'god send' animated masterpiece. GTFO

He was right about NRS fighters and their animations though.

 

[God Confirm]

Go to hell. Now seriously. This guy went crazy on NRS titles so he can get publicity. He only critizices NRS games and every other game is a saint 'god send' animated masterpiece. GTFO

i love how irrationally triggered you are by this. Truth hurts

 

[God Confirm]

also, damn Darkstalkers looks so good. We ever getting a fresh one?

 

[Gooberking]

also, damn Darkstalkers looks so good. We ever getting a fresh one?

Last time I heard anything Capcom said on the issue made it sound like never. Said when they made some re-release of the old games years back that too few people bought it, so there was no point in making something new.

Sounds like stupid logic to me, because i don't see how that equates with general IP interest. I really don't want to play a re-release of something that dates back almost as far as I do, but as an IP I think it has a lot going for it and would be very interested in something current. Make something new that is genuinely interesting, and created by people that care about the quality of it, then I think something really cool could be done with the IP.

 

[Barrogh]

He was right about NRS fighters and their animations though.

He was, yes. As long as you hold NRS games to a much higher standards than other 2D FGs, that is, which this guy does, seems to me. I'd take that as a compliment if I was working with NRS animation team.

Then again, I'm the guy who thinks that For Honor does better job than most at animation with "realistic" feel (despite it being somewhat limited), and that meanwhile Skullgirls animation completely thrashes everything in "creative" department.

I really don't want to play a re-release of something that dates back almost as far as I do...

Not just play, but also buy it, presumably again. What's with fans not only having played old games enough, but also likely still owning them.

I get it that some players sometimes buy games just to "show support" and to make and uncalled voting with their wallets, but I feel Capcom not only misinterprets the signal, but possibly expects people to just throw money at them for their past deeds. This situation is not very nice when it is initiated on a company's side. That is, provided this is really what has happened there.

Though it's hard to blame Capcom after MvC:I stuff, even though it was arguably a failure on their part to recognize what that franchise actually was to players. Regardless of that, they may feel justified to be stingy about using some of their franchises.

 

[Obly]

For anyone who is a Darkstalkers fan, or anyone who just enjoys the history of fighting games, The Nostalgic Gamer has a well-made retrospective on the series. He goes into detail about the various reasons why it's pretty unlikely we'll ever see a modern remake.

Actually, even if you don't care about DS at all, it's really helpful for understanding the hurdles that any new fighting game series faces. This focuses mostly on DS vs. SF/MvC, but it's interesting to think about the parallels with how Injustice has struggled for recognition in the shadow of its own big brother MK.

Anyway, it's worth it to watch the whole thing, but if you're primarily interested in the reasons why a DS remake is unlikely, I pulled out a few timestamps:

• 28:50 -- How large established FGCs (like SF) make it hard for new or small FGCs to get a foothold.
• 34:36 -- FGs have declined in popularity, making development companies less likely to take a chance on an unfamiliar franchise.
• 41:53 -- The original DS dev team has dispersed. Any new team would face a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" dilemma trying to make a game with wide modern appeal while also keeping the fans loyal to the original franchise happy.

 

[Braindead]

i love how irrationally triggered you are by this. Truth hurts

Only he is allowed to shit on NRS games.

 

[Rude]

Darkstalkers is godlike.

 

[Obly]

Go to hell. Now seriously. This guy went crazy on NRS titles so he can get publicity. He only critizices NRS games and every other game is a saint 'god send' animated masterpiece. GTFO

Finally watched his video on Inj2 and I gotta agree: The guy is an ass. He has a few valid points, but seems to go out of his way to be nasty about it in order to trigger people who already hate the game (and get himself subs).

He constantly contradicts himself. He says the game doesn't have to emphasize realism, but trashes it for not looking real enough. He has no problem with DS's B.B. Hood jabbing you while reaching for a butterfly, or when the same 100-lb waif experiences no recoil while emptying a submachine gun into her opponent--but gets incensed when an undead assassin (also, ironically, a Red Hood) doesn't turn his body enough while throwing a few 2-oz shuriken (news flash, genius: shuriken aren't meant to be thrown with force IRL).

Most of his argument boils down to, he wants to be "sold" on hits, by exaggerating the wind-up and recovery. Ok, fair point artistically--but what about the gameplay? An exaggerated strike may look good, but it's also a blaring telegraph to your opponent. Easy to see, easy to block, and easy to punish. So he wants Inj2 to devolve into a turtle-fest with even more zoning (because they're the only safe moves)? There's far more room for real skill and less move memorization as it is now.

Like I said, he has some valid criticisms. But we're all allowed to like different things. For me, I actually hate the over-exaggerated animations in games like SFV and (especially) DBFZ, but if that's what you like (which is cool with me), of course you're not going to like Inj2/MKX. Can't we all just agree to like what we like, without feeling a need to crap all over what the other guy likes? There's room for us all.

 

[HeavyNorse]

but it's also a blaring telegraph to your opponent. Easy to see, easy to block, and easy to punish

Every other fighting game doesn't seem to have this problem though, and still have great animations.

 

[Obly]

Every other fighting game doesn't seem to have this problem though, and still have great animations.

Actually I think they do, and they've had to build in ways to counteract it.

Games like SF have focused on "turbo" and "hyper" speed play to make them more difficult. Strikes are definitely telegraphed, but the game forces you to react faster to take advantage of it. The faster speed makes command moves and links harder to execute too, requiring higher technical skill. DS is legendary (infamous?) specifically because it's such a fast game, making it much harder to master.

SFV in particular also has a well-known input lag issue. Again, highly telegraphed strikes, but the game mechanically makes it harder to react to them, instead forcing you to try to read and anticipate your opponent's moves and input the counter in advance.

SFV is also notorious for having few, relatively weak defensive options, so again the game gives the attacker more advantage to counteract the telegraphed strikes and cut down on turtling.

I'll also say again that not everyone agrees every other game has "great animations." SFV, DBFZ, and the like may "sell the hits" and have signature poses like this guy wants, but they also skip a lot of connecting animation in order to speed up the strikes and reduce telegraphing. To me it comes off as choppy stop-motion, and I don't care for it (but I'm not going to be an ass and call it trash and insult the people who like it).

Strikes in Inj2 and MKX may not look "real" enough for some, but the animation is smoother; the characters look like actual physical bodies moving in space, not just a quick sequence of pictures. And that's what I personally prefer, so I'm willing to live with a few flaws.

 

[HeavyNorse]

Strikes in Inj2 and MKX may not look "real" enough for some

There's a reason for that. Just flailing your arms or legs around doesn't do damage. There's no power behind those attacks, they wouldn't actually hurt if they were to hit someone.

It's not just a matter of "what you like" when it comes to animations. It's about making them believable contra looking stupid as fuck.

 

[Obly]

"What you like" is all that matters. Games defy realism all the time. Plumbers can't actually jump 20 ft in the air. A real person can't get up and resume fighting after being immolated or having their neck broken. A 100-lb waif like B.B. Hood couldn't actually hurt a half-ton Sasquatch no matter how hard she tried to punch. We choose when to suspend our disbelief for the sake of enjoying the immersion.

I understand the argument you're making just fine and it's a valid point; it's just not enough to distract from everything else I like about the game's visual style. If that's what you're going to focus on and have it ruin your enjoyment of the game, I'm not going to say you're right or wrong. Again, it's all about what you like.

 

[HeavyNorse]

"What you like" is all that matters.

Try standing up.
Stick out your arm to its full length.
Then wave it up and down.

Do you think that looks good? Do you think that makes sense for a martial artist to do when wanting to attack and hurt an opponent? Because if that is your standard for what is good for a fighting game, then I'm sincerely glad you're not in charge of making one.

 

[Obly]

We covered this already. You're not saying anything new and you're distorting what I'm saying, so the whole argument has gotten pointless. For the last time...

Yes, there are some strikes in Inj2 that look the way you're describing. Do I think they look good? No, not especially--but it's not every strike that looks that way, not even most. I presume they were done that way for gameplay reasons that I agree with (i.e., making the strikes harder to read). And it's a tiny part of the overall visual presentation, which I like enough that I'm willing to live with the small flaws. If you're going to obsess over a few animations and let that dictate your enjoyment of the whole game, that's your problem.

You're also using the same double standard as video dude. You can find a few silly-looking moves in any fighting game. I assume you like DS and B.B. Hood, right? As I already said, the very jab he coos about is her literally sticking out her arm and bumping her opponent. How much damage could that cause? Why are you (and he) not equally incensed about that? Again, for me, DS on the whole shows so much creative genius that I'm not going to get hung up about a few moves that aren't "real" enough.

At the end of the day, no game is perfect. So have a drink and play what you like. Peace, my friend.

 

[HeavyNorse]

I assume you like DS and B.B. Hood, right?

I like Darkstalkers, can't stand BB Hood.
Don't make assumptions.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

I'm gonna be honest I think this video is weak and that there's nothing special about her animations. I would even rank her on the same level as Harley Quinn from Inj2 as far as animations go. No reason to make a video on excellent animations about her. There are tons of characters with impressive animations from darkstalker like Jedah but BB hood is meh. I'm starting to feel that guy as a huge bias for Capcom when he does video about her and not character like Epiza from Skullgirls or Faust from GG who have better animations.

 

[Barrogh]

Posts of @HeavyNorse is a perfect example of what I was talking about when I've said that knowingly or not people hold NRS to higher standards.

Apparently, it's perfectly fine when you teleport your arm through most of its path during a strike within less than 20ms, it's okay if you can throw about 7 jabs with your left within a second, and it's okay if the entire world freezes when you hit something. It's also okay to make blows with a crushing force while using moves that came straight from brake dancing, connecting them at the last moment of motion when entire movement runs out of steam and works against your own ligaments at that point. But that's only when you're a character from, say, Street Fighter and you have a few moves that begins and ends in poses vaguely resembling something from martial arts.

But when it comes to NRS, people will point out that "hey, martial arts don't work that way!"

Yeah, right. Whereas noone has any problems with fucking Newtonian mechanics completely breaking down every second of SF footage, on average. And I'm only talking about animations here.

 

[Invincible Salads]

There's a reason for that. Just flailing your arms or legs around doesn't do damage. There's no power behind those attacks, they wouldn't actually hurt if they were to hit someone.

It's not just a matter of "what you like" when it comes to animations. It's about making them believable contra looking stupid as fuck.

who cares, its a game

 

[Barrogh]

who cares, its a game

To be fair, it's also a part of what constitutes aesthetics. I would argue an important part when we are talking about stuff like slashers or FGs.

I mean, realism isn't needed for stuff to look cool, which is probably a priority. But sometimes goofs in animations make them look both silly and less believable, which is kinda the worst of two worlds.

Even setting aside shit classics like infamous Kitana's d3, I think that sometimes compromises are required. Perhaps, something like what these guys in those videos below talk about.

Spoiler

 

[Invincible Salads]

To be fair, it's also a part of what constitutes aesthetics. I would argue an important part when we are talking about stuff like slashers or FGs.

I mean, realism isn't needed for stuff to look cool, which is probably a priority. But sometimes goofs in animations make them look both silly and less believable, which is kinda the worst of two worlds.

Even setting aside shit classics like infamous Kitana's d3, I think that sometimes compromises are required. Perhaps, something like what these guys in those videos below talk about.

Spoiler

i could really care less so long as the character design is good and we don't have super broken nonesense.

feel free to hate on the animation all you want if thats what makes you happy tho.

 

[Barrogh]

i could really care less so long as the character design is good and we don't have super broken nonesense.

feel free to hate on the animation all you want if thats what makes you happy tho.

I mean, I played KI and I still think it's a good game, so I think we're on the same page. But that doesn't mean we can't criticize stuff that isn't good even though we can ignore associated issues.