NRS needs to look into Harley

[Kotal_Wannabe]

I don't understand how a character can be so neglected, especially one who has never placed well. She's a popular charter, but everyone other than die hard fans have long abandoned her because of her flaws. You've gone over the top to switch many characters from low tier directly to top tier, but have never touched Harley.

I won't write a big list of demands as others have and successfully got their way. Moreover, I don't want harley to have some dumb OP stuff, we just want her to be viable at high level. I'll write but two things, that the rest of the harley community are in agreement with. Harley is an incomplete character. Her tech is restricted because of her bugs.

It was nice that you eventually gave her a patch to fix her b2 whiffing on floaty characters. So I hope you can take it on board that her other bugs are in dire need to be fixed too.

#1 Her pop pop is listed as a mid, please make it work for every character, she can get alot of use out of pop pop tech. As it stands, quite a few characters can duck her pop pop and it flies right over their head. It's basically at the point the no one really uses this move. Else just list it as a high rather than the mid it's supposed to be

#2 Her b2/12 gunshot whiffs on many characters. This is her only pressure tool that's worth using, her 33 has too slow startup to be used effectively. In match ups where it doesn't work, she is crippled. Especially in the enchantress matchup where she has nothing (her b22 main combo starter gets reflected by wall, it's basically an impossible MU)

 

[Cursa]

Not a Harley main but I know you're feelings. I wish I could see more of her

Painful seeing any character being bad due to just being bad, but even worse when shit literally just doesn't work, if that makes sense

 

[Second Saint]

I agree with this pretty much entirely, but even making pop pop a true mid won't let it see a lot of use. It's just way, way too slow to use up close reliably, imo.

 

[Wigy]

Floaty feet is stupid and should have been patched out day 1

 

[ThatOneGamer]

I agree with this pretty much entirely, but even making pop pop a true mid won't let it see a lot of use. It's just way, way too slow to use up close reliably, imo.

This.^ I might not be a high level player, and I know I do still have a lot to learn, but as far as I can tell Harley's pop pop move is just completely useless. It feels more like a joke move than anything else. Like it only exists to troll Harley players. Perhaps others here can enlighten me, but what exactly is the purpose of Harley's pop pop move?

 

[Cursa]

Perhaps others here can enlighten me, but what exactly is the purpose of Harley's pop pop move?

memes basically.

or if you really like using meter for combo's rather than an advancing meterlessly launching low

 

[Second Saint]

The best thing about Pop Pop is what you can do with it in the corner. The mb version becomes a ridiculously plus combo starter that can be looped, which allows for interesting setups along with even higher damage than Harley normally gets. It should basically only be used off of a jump in, imo, so it can become a strong part of a throw/ bait game. Say you land a b2~gunshot in the corner? You're +27 so walk forward to fake a throw and neutral jump 2, 3~db2 mb, instant nj2, f13 for a ~30% damage +35 restand, or spend another bar and do your normal b22 bnb after the second nj2 and take 50%. Want a bigger reset? Keep cashing out for more Pop Pops. Want to do 800 damage? More pop pops.

The problem is that the move has 35f of startup, the interesting portion of being able to hold it into an unblockable can punish you for attempting it, there are no setups that allow you to safely get it out, and people low profile it. Without meter, it's unsafe on block and HIT up close. Seriously, it's -9 on hit if you're right up close to her.

So it's not very good from range, and it's too slow to be used as an up close tool because people with mash out of it on block, armor through it, or just jump in over it and full combo you.

It's kinda like they tried to make a move that functions like Batman's mb up batarang and Fate's Displacer Orb, while failing to fulfill either role.

And it's pretty much been exactly like this since I:GAU. So many of the problems she has have been apparent since I:GAU, and it's very frustrating.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

I dont know Harley well enough to say whether the changes here are "right" for her or not, but I do know she deserves to be a viable character (everyone does) that sees more use. Her design is one of my favorites in the the entire game, I love her kit and how it (in theory) comes together. They did a great job with her design, and I hope she sees the gameplay buffs/changes/fixes/whatever to shine.

I want her to be strong personally, but that's my personal balance philosophy - everyone should be A/A+ tier at least lol.

Random thought, and I literally have no idea how this would effect her, but I could see it being fun.. Given that Pop Pop is so slow, if it were fixed to always hit mid like it's supposed to, what about a cancel option? Letting her fake the move and create some mindgames out of it? Shrug. I dont know anything about her minutia, so this may be useless, or stupidly OP, but the ability to threaten a cancel tends to give to-slow-to-normally-be-used moves some relevance.

I have added nothing. i like like Harley and want to see more of her.

 

[Second Saint]

I dont know Harley well enough to say whether the changes here are "right" for her or not, but I do know she deserves to be a viable character (everyone does) that sees more use. Her design is one of my favorites in the the entire game, I love her kit and how it (in theory) comes together. They did a great job with her design, and I hope she sees the gameplay buffs/changes/fixes/whatever to shine.

I want her to be strong personally, but that's my personal balance philosophy - everyone should be A/A+ tier at least lol.

Random thought, and I literally have no idea how this would effect her, but I could see it being fun.. Given that Pop Pop is so slow, if it were fixed to always hit mid like it's supposed to, what about a cancel option? Letting her fake the move and create some mindgames out of it? Shrug. I dont know anything about her minutia, so this may be useless, or stupidly OP, but the ability to threaten a cancel tends to give to-slow-to-normally-be-used moves some relevance.

I have added nothing. i like like Harley and want to see more of her.

It can be dash canceled. I've tried to make pressure out of threatening mb pop pop and dashing in/ away, but because armor/jump beats all of that, there's not much that works.

And I'd like to say that a big part of her problems is literally just everyone else. She has a good kit with a lot of obvious strengths. Unfortunately, many other characters simply counter or limit those strengths, not even including the whiffing issues. She just doesn't fit in the meta, and we've had a lot of talented players try to make it work. Even KP is dropping her last I heard.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

It can be dash canceled. I've tried to make pressure out of threatening mb pop pop and dashing in/ away, but because armor/jump beats all of that, there's not much that works.

And I'd like to say that a big part of her problems is literally just everyone else. She has a good kit with a lot of obvious strengths. Unfortunately, many other characters simply counter or limit those strengths, not even including the whiffing issues. She just doesn't fit in the meta, and we've had a lot of talented players try to make it work. Even KP is dropping her last I heard.

Ah gotcha.

Yeah she seems to have a lot of cool shit, but it just doesnt *quite* fit together.

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

It can be dash canceled. I've tried to make pressure out of threatening mb pop pop and dashing in/ away, but because armor/jump beats all of that, there's not much that works.

And I'd like to say that a big part of her problems is literally just everyone else. She has a good kit with a lot of obvious strengths. Unfortunately, many other characters simply counter or limit those strengths, not even including the whiffing issues. She just doesn't fit in the meta, and we've had a lot of talented players try to make it work. Even KP is dropping her last I heard.

See, I didn't really want to say much about her not fitting in with the meta even though it's very true. Because at this stage I think if NRS release a new patch, they won't be looking to make big shifts in the meta and would just be patching out character bugs etc.

I have a full laundry list of changes harley needs, but if they're only going to be patching out bugs, these are the 2 in dire need of fixing.

 

[TarkatanDentist]

Hitbox inconsistencies aside, I think one key buff that would help Harley a lot would be for a couple of her mids to have slightly less start-up. Specifically, I think that b1 should go from 19 frame start-up to 15 frames, and s2 should go from 15 frames to 11 frames.

A big part of me wonders why they took out her Silly Slide from Injustice 1 - that would have proved quite beneficial for her as well.

 

[Second Saint]

Hitbox inconsistencies aside, I think one key buff that would help Harley a lot would be for a couple of her mids to have slightly less start-up. Specifically, I think that b1 should go from 19 frame start-up to 15 frames, and s2 should go from 15 frames to 11 frames.

A big part of me wonders why they took out her Silly Slide from Injustice 1 - that would have proved quite beneficial for her as well.

They wouldn't even let me have it as a gear move All I wanted was silly slide, but noooo, they spent actual money making confetti cannon and low cupcake, both of which somehow manage to be absolutely horrible AND not fun. Can't even let her be broke in the broke part of the game.

But seriously, buffing s2 and b1 would be huge for her up close game. As things stand, even after 33, which is +5, all she actually gets to check you with over being +2 is d2. There would be basically no difference if 33 was +2 or +6. You can't do anything different because she has no buttons in that range that become frame traps, or even hard to poke against.

I'm genuinely unsure if this would be the best direction though. The way I see it, to make Harley viable, either her zoning or rushdown need to be buffed. I think most of her problems would go away with the bug fixes and a 2% damage buff to gunshot/air gunshot. Then it wouldn't be suicide to trade with basically anyone. She'd be able to compete against other zoners better, and she'd get more out of zoning in general.

 

[Cursa]

I'd be more considerate of buffs if she didn't have meterless launchers but that's just me.

 

[dc1902]

Iv'e been looking at some recent tier list by pro players and for all intents and purposes harley is a mid tier character.

With all due respect,some of you people complaining about a character being under powered haven't even mastered basics like punishing, anti-airing, blocking,meter management,etc.

 

[Second Saint]

I'd be more considerate of buffs if she didn't have meterless launchers but that's just me.

I honest to god wish she didn't, because every time we have this conversation, her meterless launchers make her too scary to buff, and that's why she can't get what she needs.

It's kinda the opposite of what happened to Supergirl I think. She did really low damage and had some real issues. So they buffed her damage and gave her way too much stuff. Harley does too much damage and has real issues. Took 5 years and 2 games for b2 to not whiff.

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

The problem with her meterless launcher is that any option after tantrum is unsafe. Vs a good player the moment you go tantrum you're getting full combo'd no matter what you decide to do after. I understand it's her limitation because she get's meterless dmg, but tbqh, i'd rather she was meter dependent and safe than unsafe on every launcher.

Anyway, I fell she is in dire need of her bug fixes atleast... i won't push past that. She can be semi viable with those bug fixes, so it's something i can deal with since i love her as a character and will always play her.

 

[Cursa]

I honest to god wish she didn't, because every time we have this conversation, her meterless launchers make her too scary to buff, and that's why she can't get what she needs.

It's kinda the opposite of what happened to Supergirl I think. She did really low damage and had some real issues. So they buffed her damage and gave her way too much stuff. Harley does too much damage and has real issues. Took 5 years and 2 games for b2 to not whiff.

If they buff her they need to get rid of her meterless launcher. Idc if it's unsafe or whatever, she's a character who can build meter pretty decently in a good chunk of MU's and is actually hard to get a decent punish against as a character like Bane who can basically get a BF2 punish unless you commit hard to a forward dash on a read of her doing a backroll.

Vs a good player the moment you go tantrum you're getting full combo'd no matter what you decide to do after.

Tbh I don't see this being a thing unless it's character specific. If you have bad footsies (i.e a good chunk of characters) then you have to commit to a hard read when punishing backroll.

Not to mention the fact you could just hit confirm it (not always possible I understand) which solves half that problem.

It's like Flash's LK syndrome but not as stupid

Iv'e been looking at some recent tier list by pro players and for all intents and purposes harley is a mid tier character.

With all due respect,some of you people complaining about a character being under powered haven't even mastered basics like punishing, anti-airing, blocking,meter management,etc.

I think she could use changes. Like she has problems, but if people want them fixed then that meterless launcher has to go, or something has to give at least. She has above average zoning and can hit for like 350+ meterlessly, builds meter for free in a good chunk of MU's and wins clashes 100% of the time in those MU's because she'll forever have 4 bars, really good jump in (JI2 is probably one of the hardest JI's to anti-air in the game imo. and definetly the most underrated).

If any of y'all wanna start talking boofs then that meterless launcher is outtie

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

If they buff her they need to get rid of her meterless launcher. Idc if it's unsafe or whatever, she's a character who can build meter pretty decently in a good chunk of MU's and is actually hard to get a decent punish against as a character like Bane who can basically get a BF2 punish unless you commit hard to a forward dash on a read of her doing a backroll.


Tbh I don't see this being a thing unless it's character specific. If you have bad footsies (i.e a good chunk of characters) then you have to commit to a hard read when punishing backroll.

Not to mention the fact you could just hit confirm it (not always possible I understand) which solves half that problem.

It's like Flash's LK syndrome but not as stupid

I think she could use changes. Like she has problems, but if people want them fixed then that meterless launcher has to go, or something has to give at least. She has above average zoning and can hit for like 350+ meterlessly, builds meter for free in a good chunk of MU's and wins clashes 100% of the time in those MU's because she'll forever have 4 bars, really good jump in (JI2 is probably one of the hardest JI's to anti-air in the game imo. and definetly the most underrated).

If any of y'all wanna start talking boofs then that meterless launcher is outtie

I'm asking for bug fixes, but she does need real buffs aside from what i stated... things i won't bother listing because I know NRS are at the end of their cycle. I'll settle for bug fixes.

Her tantrum on block is punishable by every character on block it is never a read no matter what she does. And it sucks. Which is why i'd rather she used meter to make things safe, but it's not what i've asked for.

I know she will never be a viable character, we've all accepted this already, so we're asking NRS to fix her bugs. She's been dropped so much, no one wants anything to do with harley at high level, and it's understandable. I just want her to have some modicum of game play. Her meterless stance does quite little to help her unfortunately, i do wish it helped her more

 

[Cursa]

Her tantrum on block is punishable by every character on block it is never a read no matter what she does. And it sucks. Which is why i'd rather she used meter to make things safe, but it's not what i've asked for.

Is there actually an option to punish both her doing something on block as well as her cancelling into the backroll that is available from tantrum stance? I understand it's unsafe but the backroll is meant to be an option for her to use when the opponent is waiting for her to do one of her TS enders

Because as Bane all I can get is a BF2 punish or commit to a forward dash. That's it

 

[Cursa]

Not that it even matters. Tantrum stance could be -120000 for all I care, if it's meterless it shouldn't get that much damage or it shouldn't be meterless lol.

At least on a character like Harley. On someone like Bane it's kinda alright but still kinda BS considered literally everything Bane does it unsafe and he gets zoned out by like 75% of the cast

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

Is there actually an option to punish both her doing something on block as well as her cancelling into the backroll that is available from tantrum stance? I understand it's unsafe but the backroll is meant to be an option for her to use when the opponent is waiting for her to do one of her TS enders

Because as Bane all I can get is a BF2 punish or commit to a forward dash. That's it

There's always an option to punish tantrum, especially if she backrolls.

 

[Cursa]

There's always an option to punish tantrum, especially if she backrolls.

I get there is an option, but I still have to read which option she has to do in order to punish it.

i.e as Bane I either have to do BF2/forward dash to punish roll or I have to sit and block in order to punish anything else. I'm asking if there is one option that punishes both.

If there isn't, then it's a read.

 

[Mista_Snacks]

I get there is an option, but I still have to read which option she has to do in order to punish it.

i.e as Bane I either have to do BF2/forward dash to punish roll or I have to sit and block in order to punish anything else. I'm asking if there is one option that punishes both.

If there isn't, then it's a read.

as soon as you block tantrum you can literally press any button and full combo her, her roll doesnt get away unless you you dont press a button fast enough. the roll is like 66 frames too so you can kinda just walk up and do stuff

 

[Cursa]

as soon as you block tantrum you can literally press any button and full combo her, her roll doesnt get away unless you you dont press a button fast enough. the roll is like 66 frames too so you can kinda just walk up and do stuff

So there's a gap between her doing tantrum stance and her doing one of TS enders?