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Match-Up Discussion - Ermac Ermac Match-up Discussion (On-going)

insignis

Noob
I don't have much exp vs D'vorra. You cannot jump on her, you cannot cross her up. You cannot punish swamp after f1 string unless you are in the corner (trade with it with d2).
I didn't figure this mu. BlindDucky and Pimpimjim destroyed me with no chance.
 
@FOREVER EL1TE
What exactly are you doing in the neutral ? are you baiting d'vorrah players with certain tools ?
I dont see how he can win, if he just sits there and lets her do her thing.
The problem you just said about pressure is what all characters have to deal with. You have a 6 frame d1, which is all you need. And a back dash. But to answer your questions

In the neutral I just walk back a lot,to bait her into using her slow specials then punishing her for it.

I usually grab more in this mu to make them more impatient.

I usually play patient and rarely aggressive. I'll try to record a set today or some time this week with a dvorah
 
Playing patient, baiting your opponent and punishing mistakes feels to me like its what players do to deal with a bad match-up. At that time its you outplaying your opponent, not really the result of the match-up.
I could be wrong on this, but I can't see a character winning a match-up by giving the other space and time to control the pace of the match and do anything he wants.
 

zaf

professor
The problem you just said about pressure is what all characters have to deal with. You have a 6 frame d1, which is all you need. And a back dash. But to answer your questions

In the neutral I just walk back a lot,to bait her into using her slow specials then punishing her for it.

I usually grab more in this mu to make them more impatient.

I usually play patient and rarely aggressive. I'll try to record a set today or some time this week with a dvorah
A lot of chars have to deal with dvorrah because that's what she is. That's also why she is one of the better characters. She forces her game on you.

I'm telling you. Good dvorrahs don't use puddle or bugs in the neutral against ermac. It's a free punish for him. The good players only use her normals (f1 and f2 ) in the neutral into bug cancel mix ups.

If you record a set it has to be with a dvirrah that does this. Playing with a dvorrah that uses her specials isn't relevant. They are playing the match up wrong.
 
A lot of chars have to deal with dvorrah because that's what she is. That's also why she is one of the better characters. She forces her game on you.

I'm telling you. Good dvorrahs don't use puddle or bugs in the neutral against ermac. It's a free punish for him. The good players only use her normals (f1 and f2 ) in the neutral into bug cancel mix ups.

If you record a set it has to be with a dvirrah that does this. Playing with a dvorrah that uses her specials isn't relevant. They are playing the match up wrong.
I mean, I can't play honeybee. I only can play skeezer or killagthug and they're both good dvorah players
 

14K

Noob
@zaf havent read the full post cause i dont have much time right now, but ill cut ahead a bit just to give my opinion, i have very mixed feelings about this MU, Because at range i feel i can deal with her just fine, with some elaborate dodging and some IA Soul balls, i see myself winning the Mu quite easily, the problem comes when she finally gets in on me and then im in trouble, Im usually quite good at blocking her mixups considering i used to play her and i do understand what Dvorah players want to go for, but lets be honest tho, you can only block for so long on a very good Dvorah.... usually i can reestablish ranged game when during a mixup they try to go for a puddle, thats usually my opening to run away, with some good reactions theres a couple things one can do to leave pressure...

With all that being said i play MOS, and i think MOS suffers with that match up, thats why we "shouldv" had a better buff on Mystic, because i feel Mystic is the Answer for her, in theory, if NRS implemented the buffs that where discussed here ,for Mystic, Multiple times, it would easily be a 5/5 MU in my opinion.... But since we have no such luck, i think keeping her at bay with IA stuff is the only way to actually play this MU reliably without putting yourself into Sh***ty situations...

EDIT: when i read the full post ill coment futher on it ;)
 

zaf

professor
@14K Mid screen D'Vorrah can go under iasb with her F2 string. Her string has an animation that makes her body crouch under them.
This is one of the 2 most used strings mid screen. F2 and F1.
 

14K

Noob
@14K Mid screen D'Vorrah can go under iasb with her F2 string. Her string has an animation that makes her body crouch under them.
This is one of the 2 most used strings mid screen. F2 and F1.
Yeah i know, the thing is, other than what i mentioned, there is little Ermac can do... its not a play by your strenghts and youll be fine kinda situation, because Ermac has no Strenghts in this particular MU in my opinion. I still think a buffed Mystic would be the way to go, but we dont have a buffed Mystic sooooo.... i dunno lol One could always try to scam the match and play Spectral and just try running away picking her off little by little, but even then She does have pretty decent air control, so a lot of running would be involved and even then it would probably not pay off... But i gotta say tho, my prediction was a bit off... i did say i thought Ermac would became more effecient as ppl figured out new strats and ways to approuch difficult Mus, but thats complitely off... Other characters are managing harder Mus a bit better on a player strenghts basis while Ermac seems to be having a harder and harder time staying anywhere near relevant in high lvl.... I dunno what they intent to do with this game, it hasnt received that much attention of late, and even tho DLC will come next year, by then i dont think it will matter that much considering Paulo had more than enouth opportunities to listen to the Ermac Community (which might i add is literally the most polite and well versed Subforum/Character Community iv have ever seen when it comes to asking for well pondered buffs that in on way would make the character broke, but would instead fix him to a place he needs to be...) and provide him with proper buffs, i doubt he will do so in the future considering his words... So i guess we just have to take it like it is...
 

zaf

professor
But i gotta say tho, my prediction was a bit off... i did say i thought Ermac would became more effecient as ppl figured out new strats and ways to approuch difficult Mus, but thats complitely off... Other characters are managing harder Mus a bit better on a player strenghts basis while Ermac seems to be having a harder and harder time staying anywhere near relevant in high lvl.... I dunno what they intent to do with this game, it hasnt received that much attention of late, and even tho DLC will come next year, by then i dont think it will matter that much considering Paulo had more than enouth opportunities to listen to the Ermac Community (which might i add is literally the most polite and well versed Subforum/Character Community iv have ever seen when it comes to asking for well pondered buffs that in on way would make the character broke, but would instead fix him to a place he needs to be...) and provide him with proper buffs, i doubt he will do so in the future considering his words... So i guess we just have to take it like it is...
He just has to commmit a lot of the time when others don't need to commit to what they are doing. You can use F4~ Up Soul Burst to make your overhead -9 and a lot more safe. But on hit, this whiffs on females. Still looking for something lol
 

Geoffmeister

PS4/EU Ermac main
No way is Imposter 7-3 for Ermac:p
I read this a bit late, let me elaborate:

Shinnok's mixup options:
b3 = overhead, -11 on block
- Ermac has 1 frame to punish with 2(22)
f4, hellsparks = low, -22 (on third hellspark) on block
- Ermac can punish with a teleport on the second hellspark (if you can react to the third hellspark not hitting you or read that Shinnok doesn't enhance it)
- Ermac can punish with telelift on third hellspark, given it's not enhanced

We can establish here that Ermac is at risk by being defensive

Ermacs offensive options VS Shinnoks offensive options:
8 frame jump punch VS 6 frame jump punch
- don't jump at him
Levitate VS Teleport NJP
- don't Levitate, unless on a hard knockdown
d1/3/4 soul burst VS d1/3/4 hellsparks
- pokes are pretty similar, but Ermac needs to respect Shinnoks superior options, and the fact Shinnok can full combo punish his d1
Fastest move Ermac has is 9 frame high VS fastest Shinnok has is 7 frame low
- pretty important considering Ermac's b124 or f21d2 strings end in neutral, he's basically forced to block after everything he does, backdashing is probably a better option but can get caught with hellsparks/f2
advancing mids: b1 vs f2
- Ermacs will obviously beat this close range, but it doesn't cover as much distance as f22, Ermac is at too much risk baiting this move for whiff punishing, he's too slow and backdashing gets caught.
- Soul Ball / IASB VS Teleport
If Shinnok is in the air and reacts to this, he'll get a full combo punish or at least pressure. At worst Shinnok will block it and you lose all your full-screen pressure for 2-3 seconds. If Shinnok has Telelift, he can punish your Soul Ball on reversal mid-screen.
- d4/d2 anti air VS Teleport
Shinnok can bait out your antiairs for a full punish or pressure

We can establish Ermac is at risk by being offensive

Regarding damage:

Shinnoks damage buff combined with Ermacs special he gets off Mimicry gives him access to 34~% mid-screen combo's for one bar, which he builds safer than Ermac can. Throwing after mimicry is guaranteed, adding an extra 16%. So 2 guesses mid-screen and the game is over.

In summary:
Ermac is at risk everywhere by doing anything.
His mixups are very inferior to Shinnoks, he loses more tools than Shinnok.

The only thing not making this MU a 10-0 is that Shinnok does have to respect some things:
- Ermac can teleport after backdashing/baiting Hellsparks if he's far away enough. Hellsparks leaves Shinnok open for a long time, not many characters can capitalize off this
- Shinnok can't trade with Ermacs Soul Ball if it's charged
- If Ermac has a bar and is close enough, he can punish from the third Hellspark with EX-Telelift (Mystic would do better)

Your only safe zone is right outside Hellsparks full range, when you don't have the life lead you can't sit in this safe zone forever.
There's no mind-mixups Shinnok has to respect, he punishes anything Ermac can come up with, whereas Ermac relies on Shinnoks mistakes to win.



 

Saltea Moonspell

"Mind Over Matter" I dont mind, and X dont matter
Hey guys,

After watching closely Big B Spectral caught my eye. And here is my question: how dose he do against DeVorah , Kitana, Sub GM, Piercing and Tempest ? I am asking cause I am not doing so well against these characters/Variations.
 
I've always considered Dvorah one of the harder match ups. Maybe @Nausea can speak on Spectral's behalf.

Kitana I believe is tilted slightly in Ermac's favor.

Tempest I believe is even maybe slightly in Ermac's favor.

Piercing, Mileena in general I believe beats Ermac.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
As you may or may not know, Mystic is one of the best in the game and I'm just wondering, who does well against this guy? Pretty much all of my mains get crapped on by Push and Hover zoning (Except for maybe Pretty Lady, I haven't tried the matchup yet) So, who do you guys struggle against? Is there anyone he actually struggles against?
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
I indeed struggle against that thing as GM Sub Zero. Ice Klone is totally useless against him. The only way to punish him is to learn how to get closer to him.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
I indeed struggle against that thing as GM Sub Zero. Ice Klone is totally useless against him. The only way to punish him is to learn how to get closer to him.
That matchup is ASS for subby man. Push just answers clone in the neutral so well that it's basically you're playing variationless sub.