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Match-Up Discussion - Ermac Ermac Match-up Discussion (On-going)

This is why you save the first 3-4 posts in a thread like this =P
You can try to send me the images in a PM and I can see what I can do
omg that actually makes so much sense come to think of it.
i was wondering why everyone does that on this forum LOL i get it now.
 
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Afumba

Noob
omg that actually makes so much sense come to think of it.
i was wondering why everyone does that on this forum LOL i get it now.
You could create a new thread & reserve yourself several posts. Should be easy copy pasta to get the information from this thread into the new one. :)
 

Geoffmeister

PS4/EU Ermac main
Kung Lao (Tempest) 6-4:

- Always Block high, reaction-block Lows. (KL's sweep can now combo if he has a Orbiting Hat around him, requires specific range and set-up, don't respect it too much but know it's there, especially when being cornered)

- use D2 as anti-air instead of D4, B1, 1, 2 (Kung's JiP2 has great priority, so trading with D2 and potentially extending the combo with a lift is your best AA option)

- Teleport = d1 into combo on reaction (this includes after blocking a JiP into Teleport, I could swear this wasn't interruptable before, anyone know if its been stealth nerfed?)

- f23-Hat Spin(mid, low, -3 on block): can be backdashed after f2 and after f23. Poking after a blocked hat-spin is usually the best option, however if KL is baiting your d1 to regain pressure, go for f4 or b3. You can Soul Blast after f2 as well, if KL commited to EX Orbiting Hat, he will lose the trade and the meter.

- EX Orbiting hat is now +12, doesn't change much, keep blocking (sometimes you can Armor right after blocking, but f23 will catch you if you're pressing buttons)

- Ermac's AIR Teleport will beat KL's Cyclone and Tornado during animation (on reaction, not in neutral!

- Prioritize meter for Vortex combos (destroy his wake-up, reversal game), and Soul Blast. In my opinion, armored starters are the strongest tool in the game, if you can make KL spend his meter on breakers and not his Armored Cyclone, you're winning the game.

Tanya (Kobu Jutsu) 6-4 edit: video/TYM thread here
- Block Low, reaction-block High, block low again. Tanya only has one overhead starter (f3) and she'll never use it in Kobu Jutsu (b1 is just too good), also this overhead starter only launches when fully charged, keep in mind it's cancellable, react to this and when you see her using b1 (9 frame mid into overhead). She can EX Low Spin Kick for a combo starter, although her options in KJ are better, respect it and keep blocking low again.

- The Tonfa Combos:
ok, so this is tricky, I'm not sure if everyone is aware (and whether it's intended or not) that she can make her rekkas safe when she delays the second or third rekka (meterless). The only drawback for this is that she creates a gap between the rekkas whenever she delays, it's risky to poke and costly to Soul Blast, jumping any direction doesn't work, OS'ing Special Reversals during block sometimes trades, not worth it.

Solution?

If Tanya delays:
Block the full rekka, let her gain half a bar (...) but don't let her pressure you after this, Ermac can deal with her at short-medium, medium & full-screen range, NOT up close.
If Tanya does not delay:
if she ends with the second rekka, the pressure is yours: d1/3 guaranteed or throw,
if she's pressing buttons after second rekka: f4 punish.
if she ends with the third rekka, she's eating a full punish (F4 or 222)

If Tanya EXes the first rekka, all the next rekkas will be safe, second is -4, the third is -23
If Tanya EXes the third rekka, she's safe.

- Her teleporting:
she can't get free pressure anymore for a TP-JIP but she's still safe (and able to jump) after a blocked JIP/JIK. So because you're not able to even pressure off a blocked TP-JIP, I prefer not letting her getting in at all, but if you can't react then just block high into poke, throw or NJP.
D2's don't work well against her TP-JiP1, use d4 after a whiffed TPJIP, alternatively use NJP: jump neutral when she jumps, NJP when she teleports. Tanya is really bad with anti-airs or converting off air attacks, jump a bit more neutral than you're used to, it'll pay off.

- Tonfa Toss (projectile):
TP on reaction, practice to get a feel of the timing, it's decent
EX Tonfa Toss: same thing, even if the Tonfacomes back (which is not always the case): Tanya is knocked down OR you dodge it with d1-Soul ball and continue your combo (while the crowd goes wild)
If you're forced to block this, then she's got a lot of plus, go back to blocking low until she's done with her pressure

- don't levitate too much, even if you do, cancelling it into a teleport or vanish is usually a good idea (Tanya closes the distance so fast, she couldn't care less about Ermac's levitate stomps)
- Instant Air Soul Balls are very convenient in this match-up, destroy her gap-closing teleport tool
- prioritize meter mostly for Vortex combo's (reason for this is that Tanya's EX Tonfa Strike eats (all?) Armored Special in the game, Soul Blast included)


Raiden (Thunder God) 6-4

- Block low/high into blocking low again (know that jumping after a low block takes more frames, know his strings)

- Like Kung Lao it's very dependent on who's using EX meter more efficiently. which is tough because Raiden can get safe mixups in that grant a lot of meter-gain on block.

- Raiden is an extremely fast character and one that won't let your blocked d1/d3 go unpunished, being patient (baiting EX shocker, EX vicinity blast) and having a good neutral game helps a lot.

- Raiden's got good options when you jump in on him, be smart about it though as corpse-walks and cross-ups are annoying for him (especially when used in hard knockdown), if he jumps in on you: d4 into combo should beat anything he has.
- Levitate stomps open him up to Electric fly in the air, which pays off for him given the wall-carry it provides, I like backjumping into levitate stomps (as it's more concealed), using levitate cancels or just jumping backward could make him whiff Electric Fly which should lead into a full punish

- When you're cornered yourself,: don't try and jump out, his NJP is very good. I believe it's best to block low with him and being aware of his b2 range (double overhead) (if he whiffs the first overhead - for example by delaying your wake-up - BLOCK THE SECOND for an easy punish)

- Prioritize meter for Soul Blast, Vortex combo's and tech

- normal shocker is -7, only his EX Shocker is punishable

- don't reaction teleport his projectile


Kitana (Royal Storm) 6-4
Mileena (Ravenous/Piercing) 6-4
Sub-Zero (Grandmaster) 5-5 (slightly in Ermacs favor)


I'm not confident talking about the Mileena MU, haven't played her at a high level yet.
Kitana is a near mystery to me (after 2 days of labbing against her) and I think Sub-Zero is an MU worth talking about, I consider it 3-7 Midscreen and 6-4 when being cornered
 
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Frostbarrier

I Protect The Fridge!
Are we talking about Mystic or MoS here? ... I mean u need to also specify Ermac variation not just the opponents'
 

beepboop

Noob
What's the best way to deal with Thunder God Raiden as MoS Ermac? Played a few games against a buddy last night and the matchup felt absolutely atrocious. (granted I'm relatively new to Ermac, but I was at a total loss)
 

Geoffmeister

PS4/EU Ermac main
What's the best way to deal with Thunder God Raiden as MoS Ermac? Played a few games against a buddy last night and the matchup felt absolutely atrocious. (granted I'm relatively new to Ermac, but I was at a total loss)
- Block low/high into blocking low again (know that jumping after a low block takes more frames, know his strings)
- Like Kung Lao it's very dependent on who's using EX meter more efficiently. which is tough because Raiden can get safe mixups in that grant a lot of meter-gain on block.
- Raiden is an extremely fast character and one that won't let your blocked d1/d3 go unpunished, being patient (baiting EX shocker, EX vicinity blast)
and having a good neutral game helps a lot.
- Raiden's got good options when you jump in on him, be smart about it though as corpse-walks and cross-ups are annoying for him (especially when used in hard knockdown), if he jumps in on you: d4 into combo should beat anything he has.
- Levitate stomps open him up to Electric fly in the air, which pays off for him given the wall-carry it provides, I like backjumping into levitate stomps (as it's more concealed), using levitate cancels or just jumping backward could make him whiff Electric Fly which should lead into a full punish
- When you're cornered yourself,: don't try and jump out, his NJP is very good. I believe it's best to block low with him and being aware of his b2 range (double overhead) (if he whiffs the first overhead - for example by delaying your wake-up - BLOCK THE SECOND for an easy punish)
- Prioritize meter for Soul Blast, Vortex combo's and tech
- normal shocker is -7, only his EX Shocker is punishable
- don't reaction teleport his projectile
 
can somebody teach me how to fight tanya?
i have extremely hard time getting out of her pressure, most of the time i lose flawless against her.
she does her 112 into cancel which is plus, then continues again 112 into another cancel, second one already, then 112 into her ex boomerang, and while boomerang is doing full circle she refills her stamina, then she resets her whole string and goes into another 112 cancel, then 112 cancel, and by this time she already accumulated full bar of meter so she throws another boomerang, which basically launches 3rd circle of this nonsense.
Am i missing something or is this technically block infinite? I mean, i can't seem to find a way out of this loop.
 

Geoffmeister

PS4/EU Ermac main
can somebody teach me how to fight tanya?
i have extremely hard time getting out of her pressure, most of the time i lose flawless against her.
she does her 112 into cancel which is plus, then continues again 112 into another cancel, second one already, then 112 into her ex boomerang, and while boomerang is doing full circle she refills her stamina, then she resets her whole string and goes into another 112 cancel, then 112 cancel, and by this time she already accumulated full bar of meter so she throws another boomerang, which basically launches 3rd circle of this nonsense.
Am i missing something or is this technically block infinite? I mean, i can't seem to find a way out of this loop.
There's gaps everywhere in her pressure. In your situation, you could've poked (because she starts with a high), backdashed or armored everytime she does a cancel (especially if she only uses 112 for telecancels... b1-telecancel is also plus and often a better option), she gets about 3/4th of a meter back just from doing one Tonfa Toss strings, you don't want to block these obviously, use Soul Blast to get out of pressure:
112 <gap> Tonfa Toss there's no gap here, my bad
b12+4 <gap> Tonfa Toss
b31 <gap> Tonfa Toss
(also during delayed rekka's and anything on block that's not plus).

Her stuff that IS plus with telecancel:
112
f2 (mid, advancing)
b1 (mid,overhead) (slightly plus or neutral)

Her stuff that is plus without possibility to telecancel:
Fully delayed rekka
b312 (low starter)
321 (starts with a high kick)
243 (ends in overhead)

She destroys Ermac up close, her weaknesses are reversal Armored Starters and mid/full-screen pressure. Control the space, control the air, stay away from her, bait by neutral jumping.
 
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112 <gap> Tonfa Toss
so as i understand there is a gap in almost all her strings BEFORE her tonfa comes out.
also, i dont get it, u say armor through but i cant armor through 112 cancel. god, i gotta lab her out, hard playing without knowing her frame data. she is one of the few whom against natural intuition wont help. u gotta lab her out.
mk9 skarlett was exactly same. hated her.
 

Geoffmeister

PS4/EU Ermac main
Yeah, problem is that she can just go for rekka's instead (or even Ex tonfa strike to eat anyones armor).., so you need to practice OS'ing Armored specials.
Do it for each potential gap, each rekka, do it for everytime YOU want pressure, just pay attention to her plus strings. Definitely need to lab her.
 

Geoffmeister

PS4/EU Ermac main
how do i do that>
You input your Soul Blast at any moment Tanya COULD leave a gap. Keep holding block. There's little (to no) risk involved. Tanya's damage output during rekka's is very low unless she meterburns it (which is usually a good thing, considering her amazing armored options).
This is why she gets blown up has difficulties with Kung Lao, Cassie, Johnny, Kotal (/any character with high damage armored starter).
I'll make a detailed video about this tomorrow (edit: probably better if I make it post-patch), just with Ermac.
edit: just noticed 112 into special does not have a gap.
 
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zaf

professor
So I figured we could get the discussion going on the sub forums again with some match up discussion.

Specifically wanted to go over D'Vorrah.

@14K @xRagnarökx @Big D @GGA N1k0lasss @insignis @Afumba @SpecialOne88 @FOREVER EL1TE

Do any of you get to play this match up often ? I find this to be one of his more worse match ups. With his lack of range and slow movement I find D'vorrah easily occupies a lot of room on screen and usually ends up meaning that you are left blocking most of the time and having to react to what D'vorrah is doing. It isn't always the best idea to just run at her and try to get in. Her D3 and D4 can usually check you trying to do this and it is not easy to jump at her with how good her D2 is.

Lift can be pretty good on whiff punishing but your spacing has to be perfect for this to not get hit out in time and not be blocked either.Specifically against Brood Mother, if she does a bug cancel and dashes backwards to get out safely... This is a good spot to make a read at using lift. Will catch her out of the back dash.

I find her stamina dictates what she will do a lot of the time on block. If she is running low on stamina, you can usually expect the block pressure to turn into stagger with her shoulder ( F1). This is so she can pressure you and wait for the stamina to fill back up. If it doesn't go to stagger you can usually expect a bug cancel into backdash or even a string into puddle. Grabs are also what you can come to expect after a bug cancel and she is running low on stamina. The long animation gives her enough time to get all the stamina back.

I do prefer to end combos in B1D2 against her, since it leaves in her front of you with a hard knockdown. A cross up set up from here will beat her wake up and free pressure if they decide not to wake up. So I generally like to get that one touch and kind of loop this set up. Really pressure them to find a way out.

So more or less... What are you doing in the neutral to actually threaten her ?
 
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Temjiin

www.mkxframedata.com
HQT is unbelievably bad for Ermac. So very, very bad.

7-3 minimum IMO, worst MU I can think of.
 
I've found D'vorah to be one of the more annoying match ups for the character. Particularly Venomous and Swam Queen. I've only played against one Brood Mother who was good, the match up seemed to be the most mild of the three.
 

zaf

professor
HQT is unbelievably bad for Ermac. So very, very bad.
7-3 minimum IMO, worst MU I can think of.
- I dont think it is 7-3 anymore. 6-4 makes more sense.
- You just have to play extremely patient
- Never block a Predator F2. Always neutral crouch the first hit and full combo punish with S2.
- Dont jump. Just dont do it. You cant jump over lasers or discs. Just stay on the ground and play patient.
- D4 can be punished with lift. - If pred is doing D4 into low lasers, you need to force this to whiff and punish. If not, and you are close enough then you can armor in between d4 and a low laser.
- When pred does his laser run cancels, and is running out of stamina or just in general uses low lasers on block close up on you... you can start to press back. Predator has to armor, which you can start baiting out as well.

I've found D'vorah to be one of the more annoying match ups for the character. Particularly Venomous and Swam Queen. I've only played against one Brood Mother who was good, the match up seemed to be the most mild of the three.
It is more swarm queen that I find annoying.
 
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I believe that the person who made the write up for this meant 7-3 in the favor of shinnok.

Ermac beating D'Vorrah ? This you need to explain to me my man.
The only negatives in this mu is that her hurtbox is small. She can't jump at all because her jump is floaty, easy to anti air. She also gets out damaged. There's no reason to rush her, let her come to you. All of her wakeups can be stuffed with JKxxASB.
 
From my experience against D'Vorah, I find very difficult to have control in this mu, very hard to play the grounded game and jumping is a big no-no. My gameplan is to let her do her thing, try play solid on defense, catch something with lift, ball or tp and go ham on her weak wake up.

I wonder if this would be a good match up for mystic if the push was better (or similar to MK9). Could've been an interesting battle for positioning with two characters that like to play at a certain range. I guess we'll never know...
 

zaf

professor
The only negatives in this mu is that her hurtbox is small. She can't jump at all because her jump is floaty, easy to anti air. She also gets out damaged. There's no reason to rush her, let her come to you. All of her wakeups can be stuffed with JKxxASB.
Also any swamp can be punished with soul ball or tele port
She cant jump - Sure no problem.
She gets out damaged- yup I agree there.
No reason to rush her - More like.. You cant rush her. Her f1, d3 and d4 keep you out. There is no rushing her with ermac. He is just out ranged here. You cant jump at her either.
Her wake ups are bad against ermac and he can take advantage of this.

Let her come to you. I don't see how this makes the match up at all good for ermac. If you are saying to let her do her thing and you just need to find an opening... It isn't going to be a good match up.

You have to sit there and guess on her cancels.
You cant even press when she does cancels.
You have a better idea of what dvorrah will do when she is lower on stam. At that point she will try to end a string safely, into puddle or do the last cancel and back dash out.

I just don't see how the match up is good for ermac, or that he even wins when dvorrah is deciding what is happening.

From my experience against D'Vorah, I find very difficult to have control in this mu, very hard to play the grounded game and jumping is a big no-no. My gameplan is to let her do her thing, try play solid on defense, catch something with lift, ball or tp and go ham on her weak wake up.
I wonder if this would be a good match up for mystic if the push was better (or similar to MK9). Could've been an interesting battle for positioning with two characters that like to play at a certain range. I guess we'll never know...
Very hard to play the ground game IMO, since she can whiff punish any normal you use. She heavily out ranges ermac.
I pretty much play it the same as you.

Let her come at me, play defense and take my openings or reads when I can.
In the neutral, good d'vorrah players don't use the puddles. They dont need to.