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L

Lil Majin

Raiden Enthusiast
@DDutchguy allow me to break it down.

1) f12b2
Displacer: f12b2, f12b2, f12b2, bf3 is 32%
ThunderGod: f12b2, b14, LRC, 214, bf3 is 25%

2) 34
Displacer: 34, f2,2+4, f12b2, bf3 is 32%
ThunderGod: 34, b14, LRC, 214, bf3 is 30%

3) f1 as an anti-air
Displacer: AA f1, f12b2, f12b2, bf3 is 26%
ThunderGod: AA f1, b14, LRC, 214, bf3 is 25%

4) f2
Displacer: f22+4, f12b2, f12b2, bf3 is 33%
ThunderGod: f24, LRC, 213, NJP, f2, f2, b14, bf3 is 28%

5) b2
Displacer: b2, f12b2, f12b2, bf3 is 32%
ThunderGod: b2, b14, LRC, f12b2 (hold), bf3 is 28%

6) 213
Displacer: 213, f2, f22+4, db2~LRC, f12b2, bf3 is 31%
ThunderGod: 213, NJP, f2, b14, LRC, 214, bf3 is 30%

------------------------------------------------------------

1) b3
ThunderGod: b32, b14, LRC, 214, bf3 is 25%
Displacer: b34 bf3 is 17%

2) b11
ThunderGod: b11, LRC, 213, NJP, f2, f2, b14, bf3 is 28%
Displacer: b11 df2 is 14%

3) 11
ThunderGod: same combo as b1 for 28%
Displacer: 112 is 12%

Outside of the corner, Displacer out damages ThunderGod in more ways.

In the corner, Displacer doesn't do significantly less as he can get 39% meterless from b2 and restand is 37%.
 
N00B

N00B

Noob
I disagree with almost everything except maybe deffense and antizoning, in displacer deffense and antizoning is good no doubt, but its still very hard too play neutral with him, he just doesnt have tools in neutral too deal against characters who has superior neutral and i think you too much overrate him man.
I not played mkx like 2 month and still Raiden is looks same for me, even in displacer, bad neutral is a huge deal for character like Raiden imo.

You keep saying his neutral is good but in reality he has only short range 8 f mid, long range d4 but its 13 fr and Shinnok, Johnny says whats up, 15 fr not true mid f2 with decent range, 6 fr s1 thats tools not good enough too fight neutral against Johnny, Shinock, Jax, takeda, mileena, cassie, dvora e.t.c.
8 fr b1 its not even neutral tool, its good for up close but not for neutral, for game like mkx when most of the cast has fast advancing mids or specials moves that covers bad neutral or good zoning that cover bad neutral, jailing loopable pressure, absolutely safe 50/50 with meterless vortex e.t.c.. Ppl who knows match up will interrupt your b1, b11 everytime in neutral, not up close, but even up close its can be interrupted but its not really big deal, because its fast enough for up close game, b1 its too short and desighned for up close game its good for up close but not for neutral.
15 fr advancing not true mid its too slow for neutral, and if its would ve be true mid its would be still slow, if its would ve be like 10-11 its would be very good for neutral, but now its slow advancing 15 fr not true mid, for example Jax s f2 is good for neutral its 13 fr advancing true mid, Lao s f2 is good for neutral too its 11 fr adavancing not true mid normal, cassie s b1 is good for neutral too its 11 fr adavancing true mid e.t.c., but Raiden s 15 fr adavncing not true mid f2 is garbage comparing them.
13 fr d4 with long range its not even decent poke, its too slow for being decent, if its would ve be 11 fr no doubt, i would say d4 is a decent long range poke very good for neutral game but now its trash compared too again Jax s d3, Johnny s d4, Shinnok s d4 e.t.c.
6 fr f1 is good for punish and f1, f12 its good for up close game but for neutral its not that good because f1 is high, second Raiden big problem is he can be eeasylly be low profiled and doesnt have anything legit to deal whit it.
Its MKX, for being good neutral, character like Raiden should has fast advancing mid and long range poke.
And again teleport is not good in neutral withough a 10-11 fr advancing mid, its good for antizoning but not for neutral.
And you say he has a safe 50/50 lol, man b2 is very unsafe, OS is gone, b2 only can be safe when you cancel it into shocker but its like 10% damage so its should be safe, low risk, low reward so its fair and not forgot when you cancel b2 into reg shocker there is a gap, b2 LBC cancel its not safe at all. B2 only can be trully safe only for meter canceling into ex VB or ex teleport but its for meter. B3 only safe in thunder god withought cancelling but i forgot about how negative lightnings on block, i guess its punishable but all lightnings can be safe when they cancelled into shocker but again there is a gap tho, and again yea b3 can be safe for meter or not, i just forgot, i guess you cant cancel b3 lightnings or b3 into EX VB, only B2 if im not wrong. So Raiden has a safe 50/50 only with meter only .
His offense is good but again withought good neutral its not helps for character like Raiden. You cant win against good players who use complete and strong characters like Jax, Johnny, mileena e.t.c. against characters who has very good neutral and good up close game and plus who can low profile Raiden to the death.
His deffense in thunder god is kinda weak, armor get easylly blown up. In displacer his deffense is good but all that doesnt cover his weak neutral, he is not good enough for wining the big tournaments or making top 8 thats all.
I feel like ppl love overrating, propaganda or how that shit called, that shit was with Lao when most ppl keep saying he is best in the game, needs nerfs, doesnt needs buffs, broken, OP blah bla blah e.t.c. but in the reality he was not that good, and Raiden in reality not that good, he even worse.
Im not downplayer, im a realist. Im still waiting when a good Raiden player, Raiden specialist wins a big American tournament or place top 8, only using Raiden. I wanna see how a very good Raiden players will fight against a very good Johnny, Jax, dvora, jacqui, kung jin, Liu Kang, Kano, mileena, Sonya, Shinok, Ferra/Torr players and other characters who beat Raiden. Wining a tournaments or constistanly placing top 8 its only matters to the prove that character is not garbage.
When someone good Raiden player wins a big tournaments or make top 8 at big tournaments in America, i maybe change my opinion. Raiden players can win only if nobody doesnt know match up, doesnt punish b2 or dont know framedata on his moves, dont know where is a gaps e.t.c. but he cant win legit. Soon everybody will know all matchups and Raiden cant survive. Nivek make top 8 at some EU tournament, yes, Nivek is a great player and Raiden specialist no doubt but tbh most ppl in that tournament doesnt knows Raiden match up, except maybe that jacqui player, becaus he plays Raiden too and jacqui is a very bad match up for Raiden, its even worse for thunder god like 7-3 . So if a good player knows match up against Raiden and plays a character that beat Raiden, its death and its like more than half of the cast beats Raiden in mkx, he has too many bad match ups.
Raiden has good up close game, decent offense, good deffense and antizoning only in displacer, but he has a shitty neutral, he doesnt have a good tools for playing footsies, for playing neutral, and he also can be low profiled to the death and he has too many bad match ups. And again having a good neutral is very important for type of the character like Raiden, type of characters like Raiden, Lao, Jax, Johnny e.t.c who designed to be rushdown character should has both good neutral and good up close game at least for doing good in this game, but Raiden withough a good tools for being good in neutral stays a kinda weak.
 
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L

Lil Majin

Raiden Enthusiast
@N00B you said a mouthful and you have a good point saying that Raiden hasn't won nor gotten top 8 in any U.S. major. It's true, and that is SOLEY because there aren't any top nor even above decent Americans using him in tournaments anymore outside of Digit and maybe myself.

During your rant, you said some things that were just wrong:

1) There is no gap in b2, df2 on block
2) b34 into far teleport is safe
3) There IS a gap between b32 in ThunderGod but no armor nor backdash in the game can stop it besides MAYBE punchwalk, counters, and XRays.
4) I never said b1 was good in neutral lol
5) Raiden is safe without meter especially in Displacer.
6) f4, d1, d3, d4, mb db3 all deal with low profile
7) Teleport IS INDEED a neutral tool because it can teleport through attacks as well as projectiles. He can land more throws and whiff punishes because of teleport.
8) Raiden has a 50/50, it doesn't matter if you know the matchup.....
 
DDutchguy

DDutchguy

Stand 4'ing airplanes out of the sky
Lil Majin said:
@DDutchguy allow me to break it down.

1) f12b2
Displacer: f12b2, f12b2, f12b2, bf3 is 32%
ThunderGod: f12b2, b14, LRC, 214, bf3 is 25%

2) 34
Displacer: 34, f2,2+4, f12b2, bf3 is 32%
ThunderGod: 34, b14, LRC, 214, bf3 is 30%

3) f1 as an anti-air
Displacer: AA f1, f12b2, f12b2, bf3 is 26%
ThunderGod: AA f1, b14, LRC, 214, bf3 is 25%

4) f2
Displacer: f22+4, f12b2, f12b2, bf3 is 33%
ThunderGod: f24, LRC, 213, NJP, f2, f2, b14, bf3 is 28%

5) b2
Displacer: b2, f12b2, f12b2, bf3 is 32%
ThunderGod: b2, b14, LRC, f12b2 (hold), bf3 is 28%

6) 213
Displacer: 213, f2, f22+4, db2~LRC, f12b2, bf3 is 31%
ThunderGod: 213, NJP, f2, b14, LRC, 214, bf3 is 30%

------------------------------------------------------------

1) b3
ThunderGod: b32, b14, LRC, 214, bf3 is 25%
Displacer: b34 bf3 is 17%

2) b11
ThunderGod: b11, LRC, 213, NJP, f2, f2, b14, bf3 is 28%
Displacer: b11 df2 is 14%

3) 11
ThunderGod: same combo as b1 for 28%
Displacer: 112 is 12%

Outside of the corner, Displacer out damages ThunderGod in more ways.

In the corner, Displacer doesn't do significantly less as he can get 39% meterless from b2 and restand is 37%.
Click to expand...
Well never mind then, sounds like the difference isn't as big as I thought. I still prefer TG for the meter building and because I use B11 a lot.
 
DDutchguy

DDutchguy

Stand 4'ing airplanes out of the sky
Lil Majin said:

@DDutchguy
@Derptile
@Tweedy
@GetEmStretch
@jdghost
these are the max damage corner combos in Displacer/MOS.

Also, @N00B and anyone else who wants to see some of my Displacer fights vs good players, check my YouTube channel.

http://youtube.com/user/lilmajin
Click to expand...
Well well, consider me impressed. I didn't know this kind of damage existed for Displacer and MoS. Great stuff Majin!

Also hot damn those crispy vicinity burst cancels. How you can get them out so fast is beyond me.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
The combo I usually use off of B2 is B2, B2, 213, B14~ender. How much damage is that meterless? I usually continue with a bar so I don't know what it does meterless :p
 
Aqueous_Echo

Aqueous_Echo

Kombatant
I dont see the use in arguing over which variation is best overall. They all have their uses and a lot of it comes down to player. Displacer eliminates the Worry about zoning, safe mixups, harder confirms. TG has easier confirms, meter build, and is less effective vs zoning. I prefer TG over displacer just due to poke mashers. Even MB tele can be poked. Much like Ethereal. Some people may have an easier time playing displacer, but i have more fun with TG and the mind games it creates. Displacer has awesome mind games on its own as well.

Its good to see some raiden talk here. Imo people sleep on Raiden to this day and im ok with that.
 
L

Lil Majin

Raiden Enthusiast
Youphemism said:
The combo I usually use off of B2 is B2, B2, 213, B14~ender. How much damage is that meterless? I usually continue with a bar so I don't know what it does meterless :p
Click to expand...
The damage from that is either 34% or 35%.

@DDutchguy it takes a lot of practice and consistently playing matches to get those vb cancels down. Honestly, I usually just go for the 30% restand from f12b2, 25% restand from b34, and the non restand 39% from b2 in the corner.

@Aqueous_Echo that's the thing about people. People LOVE debating and lists. Everyone already knows that @Nivek is the highest placing Thunder God/Raiden player period after Dizzy dropped him and Digit succumbed to the nerfs at majors. However, there is now a window of doubt because of an influx of underused variations across the cast being used in tournaments and other platforms and doing well.

I personally love lists and variation debates. From my personal experience, all 3 variations are EQUAL. I've been able edge out good players in tournaments using MOS. Of course, "on paper," MOS is obviously his "worst" variation but you can bet your last dollar that 99% of the MKX community doesn't know the matchup and will lose to a good MOS. Even if you "know the matchup," you can still lose it.

@GetEmStretch thanks, I'm trying my best to contribute any and all of my findings to the Raiden community.
 
L

Lil Majin

Raiden Enthusiast
Nivek said:
You can also do b34 vbrc 213 b14 bd1 for 25% if i am correct..
Click to expand...
You are definitely correct. If you look at any of my sets you'll see that's the b34 corner restand combo that I use. I just omitted it from my video because I figured that it was difficult and 1% less damage than the one on the vid.
 
ganondeurf

ganondeurf

Noob
Lil Majin said:
@DDutchguy allow me to break it down.

1) f12b2
Displacer: f12b2, f12b2, f12b2, bf3 is 32%
ThunderGod: f12b2, b14, LRC, 214, bf3 is 25%

2) 34
Displacer: 34, f2,2+4, f12b2, bf3 is 32%
ThunderGod: 34, b14, LRC, 214, bf3 is 30%

3) f1 as an anti-air
Displacer: AA f1, f12b2, f12b2, bf3 is 26%
ThunderGod: AA f1, b14, LRC, 214, bf3 is 25%

4) f2
Displacer: f22+4, f12b2, f12b2, bf3 is 33%
ThunderGod: f24, LRC, 213, NJP, f2, f2, b14, bf3 is 28%

5) b2
Displacer: b2, f12b2, f12b2, bf3 is 32%
ThunderGod: b2, b14, LRC, f12b2 (hold), bf3 is 28%

6) 213
Displacer: 213, f2, f22+4, db2~LRC, f12b2, bf3 is 31%
ThunderGod: 213, NJP, f2, b14, LRC, 214, bf3 is 30%

------------------------------------------------------------

1) b3
ThunderGod: b32, b14, LRC, 214, bf3 is 25%
Displacer: b34 bf3 is 17%

2) b11
ThunderGod: b11, LRC, 213, NJP, f2, f2, b14, bf3 is 28%
Displacer: b11 df2 is 14%

3) 11
ThunderGod: same combo as b1 for 28%
Displacer: 112 is 12%

Outside of the corner, Displacer out damages ThunderGod in more ways.

In the corner, Displacer doesn't do significantly less as he can get 39% meterless from b2 and restand is 37%.
Click to expand...
Well, this is taken in account you can do consistently all combos, for example 3x f12b2 is quite harsh and can be punished by tech roll if you whiff only one.

Also let's not forget that TG has a setup anti armor (any characters except parry) with b32.
In some situations, b32 can also break some Xrays.
Also, with only f12b2 df2, TG gets 5% chip dmg and 1/2 bar (what has displacer ? I can't compare since I'm not in a position to launch my ps4). It means with conditioning, there is possibility to get f12b2 LRC f12b2 (LRC f12b2 but let's not bet on doing twice an LRC negative on block) df2.
What has the TG variation in more are easiest mindfucks on block. LRC which are +2 on block are really quick on screen if you grab opponent. Also they can do cross up ji2, leading to a good blockstring or 50/50 from a +2 on block. Displacer has indeed some blockstring with TP EX, which costs 1 bar. Without bar how many has it ? (Max) I think it's +2 but I need you guys to confirm that.
There is also the orb EX to talk, but we may get out of topic.

Both variations have strength, but I want to point out, even though Displacer has better raw dmg than TG on midscreen, those combos (some) aren't reliable/consistent. That's why we never see the combo b2 you mentionned, since it's easier to drop the b14, we prefer doing b2 bf3. To my opinion, reliability is also a strong point of the character's strength.

Edit : Well I didn't noticed that 31st page...
I wanted to add, I still think no one can fully use Raiden's tools.
Just talking about defense. Usually no one can jump on Raiden (except shitty TP like Mileena...). If there is a jump (either in, back or neutral) we should do instant jump bf3.
Considering it may be wrong to do that against a jump in at close distance (because of some characters that may convert to a combo, such as Kotal Khan...), the answer would be df2 (meterless). But if I remember well, some jump in may have priority on that move, it is because the character's jump in's range is long, so in this situation, we should have done the instant air bf3 because we had time to react. If there is a trade, there is at least no conversion from opponent.

That is only about air defense, there is a lot to say about other tools (db3 ex...) to undo some imba zoning (Jacqui...).
This is not Raiden is bad about defense, this is because we still can't react quick enough to use them and in MKX, only one hit landed lead to a 30% combo, so some may say those tools aren't good for defending because they all have a flaw in situations we shouldn't use them (you don't use db2 EX in every situation where you think there is a gap for example...)
 
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L

Lil Majin

Raiden Enthusiast
ganondeurf said:
Well, this is taken in account you can do consistently all combos, for example 3x f12b2 is quite harsh and can be punished by tech roll if you whiff only one.

Also let's not forget that TG has a setup anti armor (any characters except parry) with b32.
In some situations, b32 can also break some Xrays.
Also, with only f12b2 df2, TG gets 5% chip dmg and 1/2 bar (what has displacer ? I can't compare since I'm not in a position to launch my ps4). It means with conditioning, there is possibility to get f12b2 LRC f12b2 (LRC f12b2 but let's not bet on doing twice an LRC negative on block) df2.
What has the TG variation in more are easiest mindfucks on block. LRC which are +2 on block are really quick on screen if you grab opponent. Also they can do cross up ji2, leading to a good blockstring or 50/50 from a +2 on block. Displacer has indeed some blockstring with TP EX, which costs 1 bar. Without bar how many has it ? (Max) I think it's +2 but I need you guys to confirm that.
There is also the orb EX to talk, but we may get out of topic.

Both variations have strength, but I want to point out, even though Displacer has better raw dmg than TG on midscreen, those combos (some) aren't reliable/consistent. That's why we never see the combo b2 you mentionned, since it's easier to drop the b14, we prefer doing b2 bf3. To my opinion, reliability is also a strong point of the character's strength.

Edit : Well I didn't noticed that 31st page...
I wanted to add, I still think no one can fully use Raiden's tools.
Just talking about defense. Usually no one can jump on Raiden (except shitty TP like Mileena...). If there is a jump (either in, back or neutral) we should do instant jump bf3.
Considering it may be wrong to do that against a jump in at close distance (because of some characters that may convert to a combo, such as Kotal Khan...), the answer would be df2 (meterless). But if I remember well, some jump in may have priority on that move, it is because the character's jump in's range is long, so in this situation, we should have done the instant air bf3 because we had time to react. If there is a trade, there is at least no conversion from opponent.

That is only about air defense, there is a lot to say about other tools (db3 ex...) to undo some imba zoning (Jacqui...).
This is not Raiden is bad about defense, this is because we still can't react quick enough to use them and in MKX, only one hit landed lead to a 30% combo, so some may say those tools aren't good for defending because they all have a flaw in situations we shouldn't use them (you don't use db2 EX in every situation where you think there is a gap for example...)
Click to expand...
I play all 3 variations and I can consistently do combos. Nevertheless, whether or not the player can consistently execute has no barring on the said character's capabilities. In simpler terms, "easy to use" isn't a basis on rating a character. For example, Mishimas are the S+ tier characters in Tekken Tag Tournament 2.....but they require VAST execution. Furthermore, Zato-1 in Guilty Gear Xrd is the best character on the game.....yet he is the hardest character to master. Alpha Patrokolos on Soul Calibur is also S+ yet is EXTREMELY difficult to use. Displacer Raiden's combos are difficult, but he is capable of doing them....and that's what matters in the end.

Thunder God ONLY has b11~LRC and raw f2 for +2 and everything else lrc'd is negative. You're definitely right in saying that LRC "mindfucks" opponents. It's part of TG's offense, which everyone knows is stronger than in Displacer/MOS. The same goes for TG's meter gain. That's all understood already.

Using instant air bf3 as an anti-air is feasible, but it is in no way better than f1, d2, and mb df2. Also, you can do regular bf3 and get the same results and be a LOT less punishable on whiff (although you will most likely get punished ). Moreover, db2 stops all teleports and jump ins, but it's a hard read. At least you can run cancel it.

Like I said before. Displacer deals with zoning, has better defense, more damage, better neutral, and more moves that leave him at plus.

Not saying either variation is the best. They all have their strengths and weaknesses as well as favorable and unfavorable match-ups.

If you main Raiden, then it doesn't hurt to use all 3 variations.
 
ILuvFightGames

ILuvFightGames

Noob
I don't understand how people say Raiden's LRC's are easier than the rest of the characters with fireball run cancels. I mean scorpions FRC to me seems easier since you can cancel immediately unlike Raiden which has a specific time frame of canceling, too slow and you'll drop the follow up combo, too fast and you'll throw the lightning.
 
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Aqueous_Echo

Aqueous_Echo

Kombatant
ILuvFightGames said:
I don't understand how people say Raiden's LRC's are easier than the rest of the characters with fireball run cancels. I mean scorpions FRC to me seems easier since you can cancel immediately unlike Raiden which has a specific time frame of canceling, too slow and you'll drop the follow up combo, too fast and you'll throw the lightning.
Click to expand...
Well remember, cancels have different properties on hit and on block. It really just takes playing a bit and being able to recognize the timing whether on hit or block in a game
 
ILuvFightGames

ILuvFightGames

Noob
Aqueous_Echo said:
Well remember, cancels have different properties on hit and on block. It really just takes playing a bit and being able to recognize the timing whether on hit or block in a game
Click to expand...
True but still I'd imagine that went for every character with a FRC. My point is that I've heard many members say stuff like "oh you think raiden's FRC is hard? Wait till you try scorpions,liu kangs,etc." And the thing is in my experience its been the opposite, I learned scorpions FRC like the first 5 times I tried and after months of doing Raiden's I still struggle sometimes, there's a huge difference in being able to run cancel immediately after you do a fireball motion than having to wait a little but not wait too long.
 
L

Lil Majin

Raiden Enthusiast
I don't think that this is too big of a find, so I'll post it in here.

Here are some meterless Displacer/MOS combos when you run out of stamina and land a starter.


They definitely come in handy after combo breakers. Forgive me for all of the 34 starters. Furthermore, I put in some combos that end with 112 for a hard knockdown and some that end in bf3 for wall carry that do the same damage.

EDIT: Yea I forgot to mention the ending combo of 112 reaching and jailing after b11 db1 midscreen. Of course, you must be frame perfect for that to work.

Enjoy.....
 
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Anor

Anor

I am truth and light
How long, impossible to do, two cancel in one combo, i mean VBRC and LRC? Previously, it was possible.
 
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DDutchguy

DDutchguy

Stand 4'ing airplanes out of the sky
Anor said:
How long, impossible to do, two cancel in one combo, i mean VBRC and LRC? Previously, it was possible.
Click to expand...
I don't even know whether it was ever possible or not, because only an insane genius would do Vicinity Burst cancels and LRCs in one combo.

COUGH @Lil Majin
 
L

Lil Majin

Raiden Enthusiast
DDutchguy said:
I don't even know whether it was ever possible or not, because only an insane genius would do Vicinity Burst cancels and LRCs in one combo.

COUGH @Lil Majin
Click to expand...
I've mained Raiden since the game released and I can confirm that he has never been able to cancel more than once of any kind in a combo. On block, he can cancel as long as he has stamina.
 
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