Question What characters do you believe have a variation with no bad match ups?

[TheArrow]

Question: you said character, did you mean variation?

My bad, yes that is what i meant. What characters have one variation that doesn't get 6/4'd by anyone *

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

def Hattrick is in that spot!

 

[chrisisnice]

Yes there is. In a set of 100, you'd win 55 and lose 45. Carry the zero.

0.5 changes in MUs have always been around. It signifies a part of the match-up that usually cannot come into play barring a situation the opponent willingly puts themselves in.
For example, Bane on Player 1 side would stagger out of Superman's MB flying punch. That would signify a 0.5 shift in MU because its not something that can be utilized by a player unless the Superman player happens to do it on their own. It won't affect the number otherwise, but it is prevalent enough to affect some option of the opponent, albeit indirectly.

The numbers indicate advantage in a matchup. If one has an advantage over another, it is a 6... if it is fairly even it is 5. The traditional scale is:


0 Impossible to Win

1 Close to unwinable

2 Extreme Disadvantage

3 Large disadvantage

4 Some disadvantage

5 Relatively Even

6 Some advantage

7 Large advantage

8 Extreme advantage

9 Close to unlosable

10 Definite win


5.5 would indicate a minute / insignificant win. The advantage is negligible and pretty much non-existent. By not committing to whole numbers, you are leaving it open to debate and are not committing to a win or loss. Does one of them have some advantage? Well that is a 6. Is it negligible/debatable? It is 5. Using 0.5 indicates a lack of commitment to a winning matchup and just muddies the waters.

 

[MsMiharo]

Cutthroat Kano

I feel piercing mileena, bs shinnok and ronin Takeda have his number though.

 

[jackempty0]

The numbers indicate advantage in a matchup. If one has an advantage over another, it is a 6... if it is fairly even it is 5. The traditional scale is:


0 Impossible to Win

1 Close to unwinable

2 Extreme Disadvantage

3 Large disadvantage

4 Some disadvantage

5 Relatively Even

6 Some advantage

7 Large advantage

8 Extreme advantage

9 Close to unlosable

10 Definite win


5.5 would indicate a minute / insignificant win. The advantage is negligible and pretty much non-existent. By not committing to whole numbers, you are leaving it open to debate and are not committing to a win or loss. Does one of them have some advantage? Well that is a 6. Is it negligible/debatable? It is 5. Using 0.5 indicates a lack of commitment to a winning matchup and just muddies the waters.

I can't agree with this more

 

[Angryteaspoon]

But jax can still be safe using gotcha grab.. alien has no way of remaining safe against KL, after u punish his flip once or twice... hes gonna start using low tail move.. which u can punish meterless.

In not 100% sure how this matchup could work at the very high lvl but i have a feeling Kung Lao would win it.

One point is not enough. Lao has punished dash punch with spin since release, yet he loses to Jax now and it has been one of his harder match ups since release.

 

[TyCarter35]

Uh doesn't ninjutsu give Mileena Piercing some fits and potentially one of her losing matchups? Ninjutsu can clearly out footsie Mileena which correct me if I'm wrong is suppose to be one of her main strengths. You can't zone Scorpion out as he can teleport on reaction 9 timea out of ten and he has an option againot mpst of her tools. It'd prob be a 5.5-4.5 matchup

 

[WakeUp DP]

Shaolin struggles against heavy pressure chars, his armor isn't fast enough and it always gets stuffed.

 

[WakeUp DP]

I think a-list might have shaolin slightly. 5.5-4.5. I'm not trying to start a-list beef so please don't derail the thread in your responses...

Non delayed shaolin drop gives a-list his f3 pressure...

Delayed shaolin drop and raw upkick w/o drop can be OS'd by ex nut punch...

Shaolin's safe armor can be broken with 11 and a-list does 11 all the time...

A-list beats shaolin in full screen zoning because shaolin can't low profile and the arc of forceball makes it difficult to upkick and divekick...

Not complaining about a-list or downplaying shaolin but as a shaolin main I think a-list counters his strengths.

Agreed 100%.

 

[WakeUp DP]

Alien loses to Kung Lao ... since he punishes his flip with ex spin.

lol.

 

[Doombawkz]

The numbers indicate advantage in a matchup. If one has an advantage over another, it is a 6... if it is fairly even it is 5. The traditional scale is:


0 Impossible to Win

1 Close to unwinable

2 Extreme Disadvantage

3 Large disadvantage

4 Some disadvantage

5 Relatively Even

6 Some advantage

7 Large advantage

8 Extreme advantage

9 Close to unlosable

10 Definite win


5.5 would indicate a minute / insignificant win. The advantage is negligible and pretty much non-existent. By not committing to whole numbers, you are leaving it open to debate and are not committing to a win or loss. Does one of them have some advantage? Well that is a 6. Is it negligible/debatable? It is 5. Using 0.5 indicates a lack of commitment to a winning matchup and just muddies the waters.

I dunno man, there are some situational things that happen in these games. It's hard to say if something provides a true advantage or not. Like if it DOES by shutting down an option, but if it DOESN'T because that option isn't necessary to a match, then what do you judge it as? They technically have an advantage because its one less tool to deal with, moreso if its standard faire, but if the opponent can work around it at minor inconvenience, then how does one decide if that is or isn't an advantage?

As a more recent ideal: Ferra/Torr is full of inconsistent things. One of the more interesting things is their ability to combo after Boss Toss if it trades with a move. They can get some absurd damage after it, provided the move they trade with is:

1) Not a knockdown
2) Low-advantage (like pokes or projectiles)
3) close enough to convert off of after recovering from the hit

Against someone like Kotal or Johnny, this would let us trade with their strong low-profile moves. However, those moves aren't entirely necessary to beat Vicious with those two characters.

It technically shuts down their best poke tool, but its a tool they can work around, albeit with some difficulty. So what does that count as... An advantage for Ferra/Torr, or not?

 

[JesterSMX]

Shaolin struggles against heavy pressure chars, his armor isn't fast enough and it always gets stuffed.

He struggles yes but it's only some of the time during most matchups. He can normally find a good spot to be in by getting in close on zoners and staying away from pressure characters. With a-list I don't want to get in or stay away. I just hope he guesses wrong 3-4 times during the round and I keep my turn.

 

[JesterSMX]

My bad, yes that is what i meant. What characters have one variation that doesn't get 6/4'd by anyone *

What about Hellfire? Good pressure, vortex, aura counters a lot, and he can't be zoned. Can any scorp players comment on this?

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

I honestly full heartedly believe that lasher takeda has no bad match ups, just a fuck load of even match ups. I think he has maybe 2 or 3 match ups in his favor and the rest are dead even.

 

[chrisisnice]

I dunno man, there are some situational things that happen in these games. It's hard to say if something provides a true advantage or not. Like if it DOES by shutting down an option, but if it DOESN'T because that option isn't necessary to a match, then what do you judge it as? They technically have an advantage because its one less tool to deal with, moreso if its standard faire, but if the opponent can work around it at minor inconvenience, then how does one decide if that is or isn't an advantage?

As a more recent ideal: Ferra/Torr is full of inconsistent things. One of the more interesting things is their ability to combo after Boss Toss if it trades with a move. They can get some absurd damage after it, provided the move they trade with is:

1) Not a knockdown
2) Low-advantage (like pokes or projectiles)
3) close enough to convert off of after recovering from the hit

Against someone like Kotal or Johnny, this would let us trade with their strong low-profile moves. However, those moves aren't entirely necessary to beat Vicious with those two characters.

It technically shuts down their best poke tool, but its a tool they can work around, albeit with some difficulty. So what does that count as... An advantage for Ferra/Torr, or not?

As far as your first question, If you shut down something that is not needed in the matchup, it means nothing and you just judge the match up on what is left

As for the second... If she is generally at advantage due to the situation you outlined, it is 6/4. If it is a random/freak event and it is your only deciding factor on the match numbers, it is 5/5 as it is negligible/non-existant.

 

[Tweedy]

I honestly full heartedly believe that lasher takeda has no bad match ups, just a fuck load of even match ups. I think he has maybe 2 or 3 match ups in his favor and the rest are dead even.

Lasher gets annihilated by War God imo. It's just overall a tough MU for Takeda I think, outside of Ronin.

Kotal shuts down the whips with EX overhead sword(can be done on reaction), his great backdash, probably the fastest forward movement in the game + his advancing mids for whiff punishing.

He can punish low whip easily with B1. I feel like Lasher shines in match ups where low whip cannot be punished. Not the case here, at all.

Takeda cannot do anything, like backdash, NJP, poke, etc, after low kunai on block, because of the speed and range on Kotal's B1 and B122. He either has to block or armor, every time.

Takeda is overall slower than Kotal. Slower pokes, slower mids, worse backdash, slower movement overall besides his speed when walking backwards.

 

[stamatis]

Just like I think a-list counters shaolin... I think shaolin counters Mileena.

Low projectile protects against roll and telekick-sai can be punished with d1 divekick if you neutral duck sai.

Shaolin MU against A-list is 4-6,there is a flaw in this variation....even if the up kick-down kick is -7,you do not have a chance when you land in front of a char that his f3 pressure can kill you even on block.
Also I would like to mention that when millena performs a sai after the tele kick,if you have a bar with shaolin you can wait until she lands and then easy punish her with 34.
Edit. I say if you have a bar because I,with Bojutsu can deal damage with no bar.
But Shaolin cannot.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Lasher gets annihilated by War God imo. It's just overall a tough MU for Takeda I think, outside of Ronin.

I honestly don't think so, I think all variations of kotal are actually in lashers favor, I have many many ways to keep you out with my normals

 

[Tweedy]

I honestly don't think so, I think all variations of kotal are actually in lashers favor, I have many many ways to keep you out with my normals

I expanded my post, sorry.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Everyone in this game has someone who struggle against, there are no characters without bad MU.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

I expanded my post, sorry.

That's fine lol, but I have ways to make you respect low slash. I really want to go more in depth but I don't because fuck I don't want to type forever lol, but I understand that on the surface, it looks bad for lasher, but with lashers tools set, I believe he can take down any foe. Even wargod kotal. I really wish that I could have an actual conversation about this in person or over Skype or something because this is a good topic

 

[Doombawkz]

As far as your first question, If you shut down something that is not needed in the matchup, it means nothing and you just judge the match up on what is left

As for the second... If she is generally at advantage due to the situation you outlined, it is 6/4. If it is a random/freak event and it is your only deciding factor on the match numbers, it is 5/5 as it is negligible/non-existant.

But then nothing is "needed" in a MU. That's the problem. You don't "need" Johnny's d.4 to fight Ferra/Torr. It makes it a heck of a lot easier if you could, but you can't. You have to work around losing a major tool, which is possible but inconvenient.

As for the second, its a read. If you read right, its a 45% or more meterless combo for free and full-screen advantage. If you read wrong, you're at -4 but you lose Ferra so you haven't got much defensive option.
So if it's a read, its not per se random or freak incident, but its certainly not guaranteed. What would you call that then? Advantage because its an option, or not advantage because its not an option you can always use?

Also what about Ruthless Torr? Do we deem something an advantage or disadvantage when the character can cleave off 79% off of a trade, or can clear out huge chunks of damage while maintaining advantage?
Do we assume he can or can't set up during the match? If we assume he can, do we assume he can get 3 stacks? 2 stacks? 1 stack?

What about Lackey and his variable blockstun situations where he can be anywhere from -5 to +5?

Or -3 to +15? Do we assume the opponent's options when its low or high blockstun?

What about when we are figuring how long it takes Ferra to return? Do we assume a standard time? Average time? Do we assume best/worst case scenario?

What about the opponent's ability to scoot block Ferra/Torr back during certain strings? Do we assume they know or don't know? Do we assume they do it? Do we assume the Ferra/Torr compensates?

A lot happens in the flow of a match. I'd like to know, specifically, if everything I listed would count as a 5-5 or a 6-4. No "if this, then that" because lets be honest, we can't decide amongst ourselves if character X would get hit by 50/50 Y and lose 79% of their health. We don't know if character Z would use poke A and trade with Boss Toss, eating 54% for one bar. We can't assume the opponent beats out move B when roll C's block stun can be altered by the controlling player.

So tell me, specifically, if those options I listed would count as an argument for a 5-5 or a 6-4 against the character.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Cutthroat kano mains sitting in their chairs sharpening their knives like:
Good thing people forgot cutthroat exists, with our guaranteed pressure and mixups which guarantee another mixup with guaranteed HKD buff setups and 50% corner bnbs which if blocked guarantees another mixup and ex knive pressure which jails into D4 and armor breaking setups which are totally not retarded...


And he also has air mixups, instant air ball, (overhead low) or instant air ball from some distances hits low.
Who the fuck thought that an unreactable 6 frame air ball becomes an overhead low was a great idea....
And we have zoning too.

 

[chrisisnice]

But then nothing is "needed" in a MU. That's the problem. You don't "need" Johnny's d.4 to fight Ferra/Torr. It makes it a heck of a lot easier if you could, but you can't. You have to work around losing a major tool, which is possible but inconvenient.

As for the second, its a read. If you read right, its a 45% or more meterless combo for free and full-screen advantage. If you read wrong, you're at -4 but you lose Ferra so you haven't got much defensive option.
So if it's a read, its not per se random or freak incident, but its certainly not guaranteed. What would you call that then? Advantage because its an option, or not advantage because its not an option you can always use?

Also what about Ruthless Torr? Do we deem something an advantage or disadvantage when the character can cleave off 79% off of a trade, or can clear out huge chunks of damage while maintaining advantage?
Do we assume he can or can't set up during the match? If we assume he can, do we assume he can get 3 stacks? 2 stacks? 1 stack?

What about Lackey and his variable blockstun situations where he can be anywhere from -5 to +5?

Or -3 to +15? Do we assume the opponent's options when its low or high blockstun?

What about when we are figuring how long it takes Ferra to return? Do we assume a standard time? Average time? Do we assume best/worst case scenario?

What about the opponent's ability to scoot block Ferra/Torr back during certain strings? Do we assume they know or don't know? Do we assume they do it? Do we assume the Ferra/Torr compensates?

A lot happens in the flow of a match. I'd like to know, specifically, if everything I listed would count as a 5-5 or a 6-4. No "if this, then that" because lets be honest, we can't decide amongst ourselves if character X would get hit by 50/50 Y and lose 79% of their health. We don't know if character Z would use poke A and trade with Boss Toss, eating 54% for one bar. We can't assume the opponent beats out move B when roll C's block stun can be altered by the controlling player.

So tell me, specifically, if those options I listed would count as an argument for a 5-5 or a 6-4 against the character.

I do not profess to know about the minutia of F/T. If you would like a well formed debate on this particular match-up and come to your final conclusion, I would encourage you to discuss it with the F/T community.

The very detailed / specific situation you describe is part of a match-up debate rather than simply providing you with the end result of a 0.5 match up. If you consider something 0.5, you have not come to a finalized conclusion and it needs further debate before finalising your numbers.

Do you think she is at any advantage in general when taking in to consideration the information you provided above??? If you feel yes, it is 6-4... if you feel no or it is insignificant / random... it is 5-5. There is no point in stating numbers at this time if you do not have a well formed and definitive opinion (it sounds like you are unsure).

I am not trying to be rude or obtuse, I just think it is a good idea to form a robust, decisive opinion when stating match up numbers rather than taking the easy way out and providing numbers that are non committal and are just muddying the waters. By debating with your (F/T) community, you will not only get a well formed opinion, but you will also get the bonus of learning more about the match up which will help you level up.

 

[Doombawkz]

I do not profess to know about the minutia of F/T. If you would like a well formed debate on this particular match-up and come to your final conclusion, I would encourage you to discuss it with the F/T community.

The very detailed / specific situation you describe is part of a match-up debate rather than simply providing you with the end result of a 0.5 match up. If you consider something 0.5, you have not come to a finalized conclusion and it needs further debate before finalising your numbers.

Do you think she is at any advantage in general when taking in to consideration the information you provided above??? If you feel yes, it is 6-4... if you feel no or it is insignificant / random... it is 5-5. There is no point in stating numbers at this time if you do not have a well formed and definitive opinion (it sounds like you are unsure).

I am not trying to be rude or obtuse, I just think it is a good idea to form a robust, decisive opinion when stating match up numbers rather than taking the easy way out and providing numbers that are non committal and are just muddying the waters. By debating with your (F/T) community, you will not only get a well formed opinion, but you will also get the bonus of learning more about the match up which will help you level up.

Thats the issue though, as I see it. There are things that cannot simply be defined as "is it advantage or not".

I understand you are not trying to be rude or obtuse, I'm simply stating that for a character like Ferra/Torr, there is so much to consider when you have the dynamic of both of them and things like variable blockstun.
I'd be lying if I said I was unsure of the impact that ripping 84% off of someone's lifebar can have on a match, but if you take that into account, then it's hard to say exactly what the numbers are.

So if you asked me what the MU was between Ferra/Torr and character X, I'd have to clarify questions like "Do they know about this" or "Can they deal with that" or "Can they comeback from 16%?"
If I felt something was advantageous to them, I would need to give credit to the opponent's possible options out of it. I wouldn't be able to just slather on a 6-4 sticker, especially if the MU changes based on something as player-dependent as a hard read for a trade. This is the issue I have with the point of saying "If yes, then this. If no, then that." It entirely discounts the players. On paper it may be one thing, but in practice it can't be so clear.

"Boss Toss can confirm for 48% when trading with a poke" is not the same as "Boss Toss has/hasn't traded with a poke for 48%". The possibility vs the reality of the situation can't be broken down in such a way.
If I won by 1% because of a lucky guess or a really hard read on the player's habits, then is that my character winning or is it me winning?
If a person pokes at me and eats 90% in a bad trade for them, is that my character's ability to do it, or is it my ability to get the situation to happen in the first place?
I don't think it gives enough to the aspect of the game actually being played. Full numbers are what theories are made of, in my opinion.