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Breakthrough - Hish-Qu-Ten frame data on laser cancels

jokey77

jokey77

Character Loyalist
ESP-_BLACK said:
32 +9
f12+7
12+9
122+6
b22+4
21+4
b31+2
b311+2
f2+8
f21+8
4+17
Click to expand...
How did you get these numbers, if I may ask?

My personal impression from playing alone is:

- I highly doubt that b31 and b311 are the same.
- I never had the Impression that I was plus after 122.
- I think that 21 and 32 offer the best cancel advantage among the faster strings.
- b22 might be slightly plus, but not as much as 21.

Thus I doubt these numbers are correct.

Then again I am not totally convinced by my numbers in the other thread either... They were:



Note: In my calculation you can subtract another ~4 frames, if you do an "ideal" cancel.
 
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stamatis

stamatis

Όσα δε φτάνει η αλεπού. ........
He has so many +,and he doesn't need to use them to win,that KP1 except Jason was broken as hell!
 
jokey77

jokey77

Character Loyalist
stamatis said:
He has so many +,and he doesn't need to use them to win,that KP1 except Jason was broken as hell!
Click to expand...
Kid... get out of here. You got no clue what you are talking about.

In fact his options after a cancel are quite limited. Most of the time only poke is guaranteed, while all his faster moves hit high and thus get counterpoked.
 
RM NoBrows

RM NoBrows

Supah hawt fiyah
There's no way in hell b22 caster cancel is +4. 90% of the time, i get blown up by good players using that and that's why I stopped doing it.
 
jokey77

jokey77

Character Loyalist
it seems slightly plus though. b22 is one of the main reasons why i came up with my numbers. I think it usually is +1, even though it might be more plus after a "perfect" cancel.
 
ESP-_BLACK

ESP-_BLACK

best proclaimed hellfire scorpion
jokey77 said:
How did you get these numbers, if I may ask?

My personal impression from playing alone is:

- I highly doubt that b31 and b311 are the same.
- I never had the Impression that I was plus after 122.
- I think that 21 and 32 offer the best cancel advantage among the faster strings.
- b22 might be slightly plus, but not as much as 21.

Thus I doubt these numbers are correct.

Then again I am not totally convinced by my numbers in the other thread either... They were:



Note: In my calculation you can subtract another ~4 frames, if you do an "ideal" cancel.
Click to expand...
honestly they're' rough guesses. but i assure you these are very close to accurate i did various test on different characters reversals to see what move i can follow up with. If i can jail with d3,then its alest +7, next i feel for the 'ease' on how often i can get a move to jail. if it feels like theres no room for error i leave it at whatever the move frame is I could jail with.For the ones that less than +7 i had to test by recording pred doing "perfect" cancels and try to poke or reversal out with different characters.I believe my data is really good. If what you have in the circle is in the laser cancels, alot of them are wrong IMO
 
N-Zalo

N-Zalo

Noob
jokey77 said:
In fact his options after a cancel are quite limited. Most of the time only poke is guaranteed, while all his faster moves hit high and thus get counterpoked.
Click to expand...
Hqt is a zoning character, is not strange that you will start your offense with full stamina.
If that's the case you can 3,2/1,2 pcc on block and use your 12 frame mid 2,1,pcc f1,2,ExSs for hitconfirmable full combo punish.
If not, you can use 14 frames b3,1,1 for another hitconfirmable string that in almost all cases will win any poking attempt.
 
jokey77

jokey77

Character Loyalist
N-Zalo said:
Hqt is a zoning character, is not strange that you will start your offense with full stamina.
If that's the case you can 3,2/1,2 pcc on block and use your 12 frame mid 2,1,pcc f1,2,ExSs for hitconfirmable full combo punish.
If not, you can use 14 frames b3,1,1 for another hitconfirmable string that in almost all cases will win any poking attempt.
Click to expand...
In fact the follow-up after a lowplasma is quite an important topic. It is like "the missing link" in making my predator game complete. Thus I am gonna even start a new thread on it.

However it is not as simple as you say: The problem of low plasma is the stagger on hit. The opponent moves backwards. As a result most moves will simply miss.

Another problem is that pokes low-profile the first attack of the 122- and the 32-string. F212 has horrible start-up frames. Only these three strings contain overhead-attacks though. Thus only these offer real mix-up options.

21~PCC is fine every now and then, but hardly hitconfirmable nor a mixup.
 
omooba

omooba

fear the moobs
jokey77 said:
Kid... get out of here. You got no clue what you are talking about.

In fact his options after a cancel are quite limited. Most of the time only poke is guaranteed, while all his faster moves hit high and thus get counterpoked.
Click to expand...
R u attempting to down play this broke ass character
 
jokey77

jokey77

Character Loyalist
omooba said:
R u attempting to down play this broke ass character
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You must be a Takeda main?

However I don't downplay Predator at all. I think he has only like four bad MUs:

Kung Lao
Quan Chi
Tanya (debatable)
Jacqui (debatable)

None of them is worse than 6-4 though.

Besides Predator has plenty of winning MUs too.

The thing is that he is quite a complex character who doesn't have braindead "one-answer-for-everything"-moves like spin or ex-kunais (after any knockdown). Yet I do think that he has an answer for pretty much everything.

This makes him Top 5 material. As long as we have Kung Lao and Tanya staying the same, he is not number 1 for sure. I'd pick any of these for rank 3 to 5: Shinnok, Jax, Liu Kang, Cassie, Quan, Pred. So I'd put Predator somewhere from 3 to 8.
 
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omooba

omooba

fear the moobs
jokey77 said:
You must be a Takeda main?

However I don't downplay Predator at all. I think he has only like four bad MUs:

Kung Lao
Quan Chi
Tanya (debatable)
Jacqui (debatable)

None of them is worse than 6-4 though.

Besides Predator has plenty of winning MUs too.

The thing is that he is quite a complex character who doesn't have braindead "one-answer-for-everything"-moves like spin or ex-kunais (after any knockdown). Yet I do think that he has an answer for pretty much everything.

This makes him Top 5 material. As long as we have Kung Lao and Tanya staying the same, he is not number 1 for sure. I'd pick any of these for rank 3 to 5: Shinnok, Jax, Liu Kang, Cassie, Quan, Pred. So I'd put Predator somewhere from 3 to 8.
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i disagree on the brain dead aspect cus lazers but braindead isn't really easy to justify so i won't even go there.
 
ATP2014

ATP2014

The best mediocre Batman
Trying to learn Predator and I want to know are these numbers still accurate? Or is the other thread correct?
 
Dizzy

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
Sorry I don't have the time to do his cancels frame data with recording equipment but just through manual testing I know at least some of these are off. For example, f12 must be at least +9. f12 xx plasma cancel, f12 xx plasma cancel, f12 xx low shot is a true blockstring.
 
ATP2014

ATP2014

The best mediocre Batman
What about d4 laser cancel? I know it's not plus, but I saw it was safe. Anybody know the frames on that?
 
jokey77

jokey77

Character Loyalist
GGA Dizzy said:
Sorry I don't have the time to do his cancels frame data with recording equipment but just through manual testing I know at least some of these are off. For example, f12 must be at least +9. f12 xx plasma cancel, f12 xx plasma cancel, f12 xx low shot is a true blockstring.
Click to expand...
I have been trying this yesterday. Maybe my execution is just bad. Actually it is for sure. That's why I bought a Hitbox for easier cancels. Still... I can't do the true blockstring that you talk about.

I tried with Kung Lao in practise mode (switched him to "always block"; "punish with cyclone"). I once managed to hit KL out of the spin animation, which propably means that my f1 hit him during the first two frames (no armor) of his ex-spin?! No jailing true blocksting though.

I highly doubt that there are any practical cancels that actually jail apart from maybe 4~plasmacancel.

32~plasmacancel, F12 doesnt work for me either.

When it comes to strings that can only be armored out (gap of less than 5 frames), then my personal experience would be, that these work when executed especially well:

21-pcc-21
32-pcc-21
4-pcc-21 and b311

Generally 21 is the string that I use, when I just want to extend my string. I can't remember having gotten poked out of it ever.

Again this is just my personal expercience, playing Predator almost exclusivly though.
 
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