Idea for variations in future NRS games

[Goat-City]

Variations are a great addition to MKX as it is, but I wish they had their own functionality to them that made them more valuable to learn and use over entirely different characters. Variations should be used to balance counter picking, but since tournament matches are both character and variation locked if you win, (which I have no problem with) there's no real reason to switch to a different variation after you lose instead of just switching to an entirely different character.

With that said, here's my idea for how they should be done in the future -- if you lose a round, you should have the option to spend a bar of meter to switch to a different variation before the start of the next round. This way, even if you win a match and get counter picked, you can potentially switch to a better match up if you lose a round. It shouldn't be free though. It has to cost a bar of meter, or even a bit of health, so it doesn't just become a game of I counter pick you, you counter pick me over and over. There would be no question of whether or not to switch if there's no cost, but with this, even if you have the option to counter pick your opponent mid-match, the fact that it costs a bar of meter could easily persuade you not to.

One problem with this idea though is the unique variation accessories. They would most likely have to be gotten rid of since they would have to create individual animations for every variation in the game. For example, if you picked Royal Storm Kitana and decided to switch to Mournful before the start of the second round, then they'd have to create an animation of Kitana putting her mask on and pulling the staff thing out and more. It would be impossible to do, so I suggest that in future games they no longer have variation specific accessories, but they should just create a bunch of accessories that can be unlocked in the Krypt and equipped to your character just for the aesthetics of it.

So basically, this idea would just give variations an extra utility that makes them different from just being separate characters. It would give an additional reason to learn multiple variations for different match ups rather than just learning separate characters. Thoughts?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Hell no think about the fuckery Quan would get away with. You end a round with summoner in the corner so he switches to warlock and rapes you. Counterpicking is a thing in fighting games in general.

 

[BillStickers]

Remove variations and focus more on gameplay and balance.

 

[Gamer68]

Hell no think about the fuckery Quan would get away with. You end a round with summoner in the corner so he switches to warlock and rapes you. Counterpicking is a thing in fighting games in general.

This.

On one hand it buffs weaker characters, makes fights more interesting, and encourages you to learn all variations. But on the other hand, one character's variations are bound to be godlike while another's variations are terrible. For an example: Quan Chi (godlike variations) and Reptile (terrible variations).

Having this in the game would buff characters that are similar to Quan Chi, while it wouldn't do much at all for characters like Reptile. So in the long run: It's a cool idea on paper, but would just end up being un-balanced, broken, and annoying.

 

[Goat-City]

Hell no think about the fuckery Quan would get away with. You end a round with summoner in the corner so he switches to warlock and rapes you. Counterpicking is a thing in fighting games in general.

He has to spend a bar of meter though, so it's fair, and if the opponent loses then he has the option to counter pick him back. It's balanced that way. Counter picking would still exist, if not be even more prevalent. The only difference is that the variation system could make it more fair by giving both players the option to do it for a cost.

 

[Goat-City]

This.

On one hand it buffs weaker characters, makes fights more interesting, and encourages you to learn all variations. But on the other hand, one character's variations are bound to be godlike while another's variations are terrible. For an example: Quan Chi (godlike variations) and Reptile (terrible variations).

Having this in the game would buff characters that are similar to Quan Chi, while it wouldn't do much at all for characters like Reptile. So in the long run: It's a cool idea on paper, but would just end up being un-balanced, broken, and annoying.

If it costs a bar of meter then it doesn't make much difference. Even if a character has 3 S+ tier variations that each cover each other's bad match-ups, in order to switch between them mid-match they still have to spend a bar. They could even make it cost 2 bars if they thought it was necessary. Besides, that would only mean that that character would need to be nerfed and characters without equally viable variations would need to be buffed, just like they do now.

 

[Gamer68]

Remove variations and focus more on gameplay and balance.

I actually like variations, and I would like them to do more with them in the future. I wouldn't mind seeing it in Injustice 2, to be honest:

• Only 2 variations per character: One variation that is based off of the 1 of the 2 worlds in Injustice. For an example: Superman variation 1 would be normal Superman (from the normal world) with all his normal stuff, while variation 2 would be Evil Superman (from the alternate world) and would replace some of his moves with Zod-style moves.
• Variations would be more fleshed out, and would continued to be handled as separate characters (no switching between rounds, or anything like that).
• No crap variations like Reptile's, and no story-less variations like Ethereal Mileena -- all variations would have a place in the story and purpose in gameplay.

EDIT: I wouldn't mind if it made it in the game or not, though. I'm fine either way.

EDIT: One more thing: Maybe variations could change character traits?

 

[The Celebrity]

I brought up awhile back that tournaments should be open to "Character Lock, No Variation Lock", and I feel like the discussion was pretty mediocre about it. I think if the variation system should change, it should be on the competitive side.

This just sounds a bit crazy, like a different game altogether. Almost like a tag-team without a teammate. I mean some variations are COMPLETELY different and this would be a huge buff to them. Someone like Takeda could literally completely change playstyles in between rounds. For example, I personally think its very easy to steal a round as Ronin early and put your opponent on tilt for them not blocking the Overhead -> Low, then you can swap to SR or Lasher or something and use that tilt to your advantage with spacing. It'd be a different game for sure, but I don't like this idea personally.

 

[NoobHunter420]

Variations are great, let's not mess with them.
they give the same so much variety.
Traits don't fit into MK, that's injustice and injustice only.

 

[SM StarGazer]

King Jin would be a problem. Burn a bar to take a bar, now they can switch or force being left with one, two, or no bars.

 

[Gamer68]

If it costs a bar of meter then it doesn't make much difference. Even if a character has 3 S+ tier variations that each cover each other's bad match-ups, in order to switch between them mid-match they still have to spend a bar. They could even make it cost 2 bars if they thought it was necessary.

Actually, I don't think that would make much of a difference. The meta would just evolve into: Choose a top tier, stock up on a bar of meter, change to something that would benefit you more in the next Round -- depending on what situation you are in. If it was 2 meters I could see that being a little more balanced, but still not by much. Why? Some characters have better meter-build capabilities than others. Character A would be able to gain meter more quickly then the rest of the roster, while Character B would have more trouble gaining meter than the rest of the roster. Imagine a top tier character with great meter-build capabilities changing variations between Rounds to further aid him, then just gain the meter back quickly during the Round start. That's stuff of nightmares...

Besides, that would only mean that that character would need to be nerfed and characters without equally viable variations would need to be buffed, just like they do now.

That's true, but you have to wait for that -- a patch to potentially fix an issue. It could only be a week, or it could be a couple months. Either way, during that "wait time" there would be a character (or characters) that are broken and would abuse this option and make them even more broken. And let's be honest, in the end for a fighting game, there's always those couple of characters that better than everyone (most of the time, anyway). So when the devs stop patching the game, there's always going to be a couple characters that's better than everyone else + plus uses this new option more effectively (which makes the case of "This character is never going to be patched, and they are broken" more annoying since they are even better with this option).

Lastly, I think it would be a PAIN for NetherRealm to not only have to balance Characters and Variations, but also All of that AND Character Variation Switching. I think it's best for NetherRealm to either:

1. Keep variations the same in future games.
2. Limit the amount of variations but flesh them out more (say, drop from 3 to 2).
3. Completely remove variations from future games, and do something new.

I personally I like variations (I mentioned how Option 2 would be great for Injustice 2), but I do feel like Option 3 would be the best in general. I believe that NRS needs to focus on trying new things and fixing the mistakes they did in the past. I also feel like they need to keep drastically changing the gameplay "elements" between games (Injustice was traits, interactables, and transitions. Mortal Kombat X was variations and tweaked interactables. Injustice 2 should try to do it's on thing as well). I don't think they could do that if they had to worry about variations again and/or if variations was a standard in their games.

 

[Afk Skinny]

Sub zero- Noob
Subby becomes Noob along with 3 subset variations for him

 

[Dankster Morgan]

He has to spend a bar of meter though, so it's fair, and if the opponent loses then he has the option to counter pick him back. It's balanced that way. Counter picking would still exist, if not be even more prevalent. The only difference is that the variation system could make it more fair by giving both players the option to do it for a cost.

Which characters would it be worth spending the bar mid match other than a handful? Most characters have a clear cut best variation for a matchup so it would just make Quan Chi better.

 

[Goat-City]

Actually, I don't think that would make much of a difference. The meta would just evolve into: Choose a top tier, stock up on a bar of meter, change to something that would benefit you more in the next Round -- depending on what situation you are in. If it was 2 meters I could see that being a little more balanced, but still not by much. Why? Some characters have better meter-build capabilities than others. Character A would be able to gain meter more quickly then the rest of the roster, while Character B would have more trouble gaining meter than the rest of the roster. Imagine a top tier character with great meter-build capabilities changing variations between Rounds to further aid him, then just gain the meter back quickly during the Round start. That's stuff of nightmares...


That's true, but you have to wait for that -- a patch to potentially fix an issue. It could only be a week, or it could be a couple months. Either way, during that "wait time" there would be a character (or characters) that are broken and would abuse this option and make them even more broken. And let's be honest, in the end for a fighting game, there's always those couple of characters that better than everyone (most of the time, anyway). So when the devs stop patching the game, there's always going to be a couple characters that's better than everyone else + plus uses this new option more effectively (which makes the case of "This character is never going to be patched, and they are broken" more annoying since they are even better with this option).

Lastly, I think it would be a PAIN for NetherRealm to not only have to balance Characters and Variations, but also All of that AND Character Variation Switching. I think it's best for NetherRealm to either:

1. Keep variations the same in future games.
2. Limit the amount of variations but flesh them out more (say, drop from 3 to 2).
3. Completely remove variations from future games, and do something new.

I personally I like variations (I mentioned how Option 2 would be great for Injustice 2), but I do feel like Option 3 would be the best in general. I believe that NRS needs to focus on trying new things and fixing the mistakes they did in the past. I also feel like they need to keep drastically changing the gameplay "elements" between games (Injustice was traits, interactables, and transitions. Mortal Kombat X was variations and tweaked interactables. Injustice 2 should try to do it's on thing as well). I don't think they could do that if they had to worry about variations again and/or if variations was a standard in their games.

But you have to lose the round in order to be able to switch. If you win the round there is no option. So if you pick a top tier and win, it's exactly the same thing as it is now except the losing player has an option to pick a different variation to deal with that top tier character for a bar of meter. If the top tier loses, well, he lost, so yeah he may be able to switch to another variation but he was top tier already before and still lost. If he wins the next round then the opponent can now counter pick him back, and he only needs one round to win so the player who won the first round always has the advantage.

It really doesn't matter if some characters have better meter building abilities because that just means they need to be balanced around that. I see what you're saying about waiting for patches, but I think the paranoia that it would be sooooooo much harder to balance than just having variations without the ability to switch between them between rounds is unwarranted with the reasons I've given. It would make the game significantly better and the increase in difficulty of balancing it would be minimal at best.

 

[Goat-City]

Which characters would it be worth spending the bar mid match other than a handful? Most characters have a clear cut best variation for a matchup so it would just make Quan Chi better.

Tournament matches are character and variation locked. If two players pick characters that are a 5-5 match up with each other, then the losing player now has the option to counter pick the winning player. So now the player who won the first match gets counter picked and loses the first round, but now that same player who lost the first round can spend a bar to reverse the counter pick or at least switch to a variation that goes 5-5 again with their opponent's character. It would be a great option for any character in the game, not just Quan. It would not make Quan Chi much better, if at all. The Quan Chi player would have to lose an entire round in order to counter pick, so if the other player lost the second round due to that counter pick, then they now have the option to counter pick the Quan player. If the non-Quan Chi player wins then the match is over and the Quan player has no option to counter pick again, so the player who wins the first round always has the advantage. Quan Chi needs to be nerfed anyway. Whether or not you can switch variations between rounds doesn't change that fact.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Tournament matches are character and variation lock. If two players pick characters that are a 5-5 match up with each other, then the losing player now has the option to counter the winning player. So now player who won the first match gets counter picked and loses the first round, but now that same player who lost the first round can spend a bar to reverse the counter pick or at least switch to a variation that goes 5-5 again with their opponent's character. It would be a great option for any character in the game, not just Quan. It would not make Quan Chi much better, if at all. The Quan Chi player would have to lose an entire round in order to counter pick, so if the other player lost the second round due to that counter pick, then they now have the option to counter pick the Quan player. If the non-Quan Chi player wins then the match is over and the Quan player has no option to counter pick again, so the player who wins the first round always has the advantage. Quan Chi needs to be nerfed anyway. Whether or not you can switch variations between rounds doesn't change that fact.

It does nothing for most characters. It for sure makes Quan better because if you start with summoner and your cheesy bullshit doesn't work, you can switch to warlock for utility. If you desperately need your wake up you can get it. A lot of the characters don't have the utility in their variations to actually make a difference mid match. It would do nothing for Reptile, Sub-Zero, Liu Kang, D'Vorah, Kung Lao, Predator, Tanya, etc...

 

[Goat-City]

It does nothing for most characters. It for sure makes Quan better because if you start with summoner and your cheesy bullshit doesn't work, you can switch to warlock for utility. If you desperately need your wake up you can get it. A lot of the characters don't have the utility in their variations to actually make a difference mid match. It would do nothing for Reptile, Sub-Zero, Liu Kang, D'Vorah, Kung Lao, Predator, Tanya, etc...

But you have to lose with Summoner first before you can switch, then if you win with Warlock the match up should have been even so there's nothing to complain about, and if the match up was in Warlock's favor then the opponent can spend a bar of meter to go to a better variation for the match up and then win. I already said Summoner needs to be nerfed regardless. If it helps him out more than other characters then they would have to just balance around that as well, so it makes no difference. The argument that this feature or that feature shouldn't be implemented because it would make this character or that character even better is a useless argument. It simply changes how they should be balanced. It creates no extra work for the developers to balance them, just potentially different work.

As for the characters you listed, if they don't need to switch then they don't need to switch. Some of them though actually would have variations that would be better for certain match ups if they were balanced. If Unbreakable was as good as it should be then you could go from Grandmaster to Unbreakable for the Tremor match up. Even if your character has variations that cover its own match ups better than others, you still have to spend a bar to switch, so that doesn't change anyway. All it does is leave an option there for players to use if they want to, and creates a unique utility for variations as a game mechanic.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

But you have to lose with Summoner first before you can switch, then if you win with Warlock the match up should have been even so there's nothing to complain about, and if the match up was in Warlock's favor then the opponent can spend a bar of meter to go to a better variation for the match up and then win. I already said Summoner needs to be nerfed regardless. If it helps him out more than other characters then they would have to just balance around that as well, so it makes no difference. The argument that this feature or that feature shouldn't be implemented because it would make this character or that character even better is a useless argument. It simply changes how they should be balanced. It creates no extra work for the developers to balance them, just potentially different work.

As for the characters you listed, if they don't need to switch then they don't need to switch. Some of them though actually would have variations that would be better for certain variations if they were balanced. If Unbreakable was as good as it should be then you could go from Grandmaster to Unbreakable for the Tremor match up. Even if your character has variations that cover its own match ups better than others, you still have to spend a bar to switch, so that doesn't change anyway. All it does is leave an option there for players to use if they want to, and creates a unique utility for variations as a game mechanic.

I understand what you meant man. It's a decent idea in an ideal situation. But in the reality of MKX it wouldn't work. Maybe it would work better in INJ 2 or MK11. I know what you mean and your logic is sound, but idk how it would work for this particular game.

 

[-Blinky-]

Variations are good for 1 game, but for MK11 they should just do no variations, but get a bigger roster, and work on balancing.

 

[Goat-City]

I understand what you meant man. It's a decent idea in an ideal situation. But in the reality of MKX it wouldn't work. Maybe it would work better in INJ 2 or MK11. I know what you mean and your logic is sound, but idk how it would work for this particular game.

How would it not work for this game? The fact that it costs a significant resource to use the feature and that only the losing player in a round can use it to begin with means that it could not possibly make much of a difference in the meta of the game. In order to even use it and have an unfair advantage, the match up would have to be at least 7-3 when you switch, but even then if you're spending a bar of meter just to do that, then the match up becomes more like a 6-4. Then the opponent has the option to do the same thing if they lose due to that 6-4 match up. So basically the balance between characters would stay the exact same as it is now. What would change would be the methods to balancing the characters individually and the way games play out. Counter picking would require more thought and there would now be potential counters to it. Quan would still be S tier and he would still need to be nerfed in the same ways he currently does. Balance wise there's practically no difference between characters with multiple viable variations that cover different match ups and characters with variations that don't, because it always will cost a bar of meter no matter what and you will always have to lose in order to make use of the feature.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

How would it not work for this game? The fact that it costs a significant resource to use the feature and that only the losing player in a round can use it to begin with means that it could not possibly make much of a difference in the meta of the game. In order to even use it and have an unfair advantage, the match up would have to be at least 7-3 when you switch, but even then if you're spending a bar of meter just to do that, then the match up becomes more like a 6-4. Then the opponent has the option to do the same thing if they lose due to that 6-4 match up. So basically the balance between characters would stay the exact same as it is now. What would change would be the methods to balancing the characters individually and the way games play out. Counter picking would require more thought and there would now be potential counters to it. Quan would still be S tier and he would still need to be nerfed in the same ways he currently does. Balance wise there's practically no difference between characters with multiple viable variations that cover different match ups and characters with variations that don't, because it always will cost a bar of meter no matter what and you will always have to lose in order to make use of the feature.

Because it only would benefit like 5 characters is how it wouldn't work currently. The game would be largely unchanged but those few characters would get way the hell better.

 

[Goat-City]

Because it only would benefit like 5 characters is how it wouldn't work currently. The game would be largely unchanged but those few characters would get way the hell better.

I've already explained how that wouldn't be the case though. And any characters who would benefit from it slightly more than others would still need to be nerfed just as much as they do now. I've already explained this. You can't just keep repeating the same argument ad nauseam while I've typed multiple paragraphs disputing it. In the game's current balance, this feature would not change the balance much at all. And in the game's ideal balance, the feature would work perfectly fine and would be a significant improvement to the game, so saying it wouldn't work in MKX is not true.

 

[zerosebaz]

I don't think this is a good idea.

The winner should be able to switch variation if the loser picks another character but not if the loser only switched variations.

I'm not sure why tournaments arent run like that.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I've already explained how that wouldn't be the case though. And any characters who would benefit from it slightly more than others would still need to be nerfed just as much as they do now. I've already explained this. You can't just keep repeating the same argument ad nauseam while I've typed multiple paragraphs disputing it. In the game's current balance, this feature would not change the balance much at all. And in the game's ideal balance, the feature would work perfectly fine and would be a significant improvement to the game, so saying it wouldn't work in MKX is not true.

The characters it would benefit don't necessarily need nerfed. It would help Kotal, Sonya, and Takeda and I don't think they need nerfed. It makes more sense to remain the way it is. The loser gets the chance to counter pick. Whoever wins the first match gets the advantage in the set because they can pick whoever they both want at the beginning of the set. The characters that benefit from it don't do it "slightly" more than the others. They straight up do or they don't. There are 29 characters currently and this only helps 5, most of which don't need any help as is. Adding a useless feature for the benefit of a mere handful of characters that don't even need it is a bad idea. The OP asked for opinions and these are mine.

 

[Goat-City]

The characters it would benefit don't necessarily need nerfed. It would help Kotal, Sonya, and Takeda and I don't think they need nerfed. It makes more sense to remain the way it is. The loser gets the chance to counter pick. Whoever wins the first match gets the advantage in the set because they can pick whoever they both want at the beginning of the set. The characters that benefit from it don't do it "slightly" more than the others. They straight up do or they don't. There are 29 characters currently and this only helps 5, most of which don't need any help as is. Adding a useless feature for the benefit of a mere handful of characters that don't even need it is a bad idea. The OP asked for opinions and these are mine.

If it would benefit them it would only be a slight benefit. Not necessarily enough for them to need to be nerfed. You haven't acknowledged my disputes of your argument but you're still saying the same thing. I asked for people's opinions so I could either debate with them or agree with them. You're saying they would benefit hugely from it but you haven't said why. I'm asking you to back up your opinions against my criticism. I've backed up mine so far, and if I stop being able to do that then I'll admit that I'm either wrong or I'm no longer sure. Again though, even if they did hugely benefit those characters, that would just change how they would need to be nerfed, so even THEN it could still easily work for MKX. That's beside the point though because I'm not asking for this change to be made to MKX. That would be ridiculous.