Strategy - Balanced Kenshi Vs The World

[Juanchaaa]

Not really sure if there is a MU Thread for Kenshi, so I decided to make one just to learn what most Kenshi players feel are the hardest and not so hard MU. This can vary from any of his variations, so lets not limit our imagination to just Balanced.

In this case, I don't feel that Sub Zero is a hard match up for Kenshi, since he has some pretty decent holes in his game that Kenshi can punish. The video lacks in the department of diferent combo strings, sin it only uses B3, 3 & it

• Also wanted to point out that if everything goes well, I will be posting future "Tech" against any character

It's a video showing of some strategies when you go up against a sub zero. Let's say it's some Anti Sub Zero Tech, this "Tech" can be new and/or old; but nevertheless is still some decent "tech". The theory behind it is all based on the frame data on start up and/or on block.

• I used an Excell Sheet that presents the "Real" frame data and not the in game one.

I will do my best to go over the video and write what I was trying to showcase in it.

From 00:00 to 00:20

It ilustrates the "Gap" that exist in between ZB combo strings and special canceling moves. The combo string used in the vid is one that most players use, B3, 3 ~ (Any Special Move). If you run up against a player who doesn't practice his hit confirming, they will almost always cancel the combo into a special move. Kenshi can work around this by throwing his armored EX special moves on reversal (Atleast on balanced) I used Rising Karma since it gives the option to take them full screen with a combo punish or sacrifice that full screen to get them into the corner.

• This works on:
  • Ice Burst 23 frames on start up & -10 on block
  • Ice Ball 31 frames on start up & -18 on block
    • Neutral duck the ice ball & punish accordingly

• • • Block it and use the frames to your advantage
  • Ice Blast 21 frames on start up & -8 on block
  • Frost Hammer 31 frames on start up & -9 on block
  • Crushing Hammer 28 frames on start up & -9 on block

From 00:20 to 00:26

It ilustrates a punish to SZ B2 with Kenshi using B3, 2. It works at mid screen and in the corner; now to be fair this punish is a 1 frame link.

• B2 17 frames on start up & -13 on block
  • B3, 2 for that 1 frame link

Not ilustrated in the video, but wanted to mention it:

• If SZ hits his B2 from max range, you cannot punish him with what the video is showing, since smart players know how to make B2 safe.

• You also have other options when you block the B2; this works when you block his B2 may it be mid screen or in the corner:
  • You can D1
  • Standing 4
    • Linking it into 4, 2, 1 (The benefit here is that this combo string leaves you +2, so in you don't punish him you have that to your advantage)
      • If you do punish it, you can full combo it

• When he does B2 really close to you, you can also punish him with:
  • D2
  • Standing 3
    • Linking it into 3, 2 (The benefit here is that this combo string leaves you -5, so it leaves you "Safe" on block)

Just trying to show multiple options


From 00:26 to 00:57

It ilustrates his options when B3,3 ~ Ice Clone is blocked in the corner. Of course this is not the best/nor the optimal way to use ice clone, I used B3,3 as an example.

• Both B3 & B3, 3 ~ Ice Clone in the corner (Specifically when you block the combo string)
  • Can be punished with:
    • Rising Karma (DB1) on Reversal
      • This type of punish only works in the corner
    • Spirit Push (BF2)
    • Tele-Flurry (BF3)
    • X Ray
      • When not in the corner, any of the mentioned moves can punish it; except Rising Karma

This part is not shown in the video, but was pointed out to me by @RM Ree to mention that some normals and/or combo strings can't be punished and even make SZ safe. So I decided to go thru every single Normal and combo string to have a reference as to what you can punish and how to go about it.

If SZ uses any normal and/or combo string into EX Ice Clone you cannot punish it with any of Kenshi's special moves on reversal. EX Ice Clone against Kenshi is extreamely safe, so you will have to respect it

Whenever Sub Zero's special cancels into his normal Ice Clone using any of the following normals and/or combo strings; and you block the combo string it. You can punish it with Rising Karma, tele flurry and tele-push on Reversal.

(This works Mid-Screen and in the Corner)

• Example of all of the normals/combos this works on:
  • 1
  • B1
  • F1
  • D1
  • 2
  • D4
  • 1, 2
  • 1, 2, 3
  • B1, 2
  • 2, 4
  • B3, 3
    • If it's done mid screen you cannot punish it with Rising Karma
  • F3, 3
  • F4, 2
    • If it's done mid screen you cannot punish it with Rising Karma

Some normals and/or combo strings canceled into normal Ice Clone cannot be punished by Rising Karma and/or Tele-Push (Specificaly in the Balanced Variation) when this occurs it's best to use Tele-Flurry instead

• Example of all of the normal/combos this works on:

• • 3
  • 4
  • 1, 1

There is only one normal that when it is canceled into normal Ice Clone you cannot punish it with any of Kenshi's special moves on reversal

• Example of the normal:
  • F4

Hope this is usefull for you guys.

From 00:57 to 01:02

It's just a normal ice slide punish, both normal and meter versions of this move is -22 on block; so that means you have all the time in the world to punish it.

• Ice Slide (BF4) 9 frames on start up & -22 frames on block
  • Can be punished with:
    • B3, 2
    • D2
    • D1
    • 1, 1, 1
    • Normal Throw
    • Rising Karma
    • Spirit Push
    • Tele-Flurry
    • YOU NAME IT, if it starts faster that 22 frames go for it

From 01:02 to 01:19

If you block SZ F4, 2, 1+3 you can also punish it. The reason for showing this particular combo string is that, in my expirience; I used to block it completely and never really noticed it was punishable

• F4, 2, 1+3 is -11 on block
  • Can be punished with:
    • Normal Throw on reversal (Safest Option)
    • D2 comes out in 8 Frames
    • D1 comes out in 8 frames also
    • Standing 1 comes out in 9 frames

I'm completely aware that smart Sub Zero Players won't throw this combo string out there unless its mid combo or they believe that it will hit the opponent.

From 01:19 to 01:52

Sub Zero's hammer can be overwhelming if you don't know its weakness, since it also has a "Gap" when players cancel their normals and/or combo strings into his Normal Hammer. Now the punishes will vary depending on what version of the hammer they use.

• Frost Hammer (DB2) 31 frames on start up & -9 on block
  • Can be punished with:
    • Jumping Foward and Backwards (It works mid-screen and in the corner)
      • Theoretically speaking this can be done with all characters
    • You can Backdash from mid-screen or in the corner, but not on reversal (Not really a punish, but its still an option)
      • Theoretically speaking this can be done with all characters
        • Just in case here is a Vid Showcasing this peticular tactic

• • • Standing 1 Comes out in 9 frames
    • 1, 1
    • 1, 1, 1
      • Just in case here is a vid showcasing this peticular punish

• • • D1 Comes out in 8 frames
    • D2 (It can trade) Comes out in 8 frames
    • EX Rising Karma (Its amor trades with the hammers 1 hit)
    • EX Spirit Push (Its amor trades with the hammers 1 hit)
    • X-Ray

When dealing with the metter burn version of SZ Hammer, you cannot jump it, it has armor and it can lead to some heavy damage if it connects; so time the reversal accordingly.

• Crushing Hammer (DB2 MB) 28 frames on start up & -9 on block. Since its an armored special move its gonna trade if you try to punish it with a normal.
  • Can be punished with:
    • Backdash from mid-screen or in the corner (Not really a punish, but its still an option)
      • Theoretically speaking this can be done with all characters
    • EX Rising Karma
    • EX Spirit-Push
    • X-Ray

Some of SZ Normals make Kenshis Rising Karma act differently

• 1 ~ Crushing Hammer
• 2 ~ Crushing Hammer
• B3 ~ Crushing Hammer

Some of SZ normals and/or combo strings blow up Kenshi's Amored Reversal special moves (Atleast in Balanced)

• 1, 2, 3 ~ Crushing Hammer
• F3, 3 ~ Crushing Hammer
• D1 ~ Crushing Hammer (This doesn't Combo)
• D3 ~ Crushing Hammer (This doesn't Combo)
• D4 ~ Crushing Hammer (This doesn't Combo)

From 01:52 to 02:28
This section covers SZ "Unbreakable" Barrior of Frost special move. It follows the same instruction as the ice clone section. Not that hard, just wait and punish accordingly.

• Barrior of Frost (This includes both the normal and metered versions of this special move)
  • Can be punished with:
    • Rising Karma
    • Spirit Push
    • Tele-Flurry
    • X-Ray
  • If you wait until the move hits the recovery frame section of the attack, you can punish it with whaterver makes you happy.

That would be all I have for now, your feedback (May it be positive or negative) will be well recieved; hope this can be usefull for everyone.

 

[BoromiRofGeo]

i just came here to say i give you props and salute you for even trying...

 

[Juanchaaa]

i just came here to say i give you props and salute you for even trying...

In all honesty, I end up learning so much that it winds up being good for me. Most of the things can be aplied by every other character. Hope it was helpful in anyway shape or form.

 

[Diego de Souza Costa]

When fighting against annoying ass Liu Kang, who do u think, would do less worse against him ?! Balanced or Kenjutsu, cuz i don't think Possessed can't even start doing something.... lol

 

[Redux]

i don't think Possessed can't even start doing something.... lel

fixed that for you bud.

 

[Lokheit]

Just wanted to point out, using only B33 as an example of how to counter Subbie's cancels don't really cover the matchup. F4 has really good reach and literally everything a jail (the only exception being Iceball or both Bursts if you're too far from the opponent and only the tip of your boot hits him, if you're just a bit closer, everything is safe).

 

[Juanchaaa]

When fighting against annoying ass Liu Kang, who do u think, would do less worse against him ?! Balanced or Kenjutsu, cuz i don't think Possessed can't even start doing something.... lol

It depends on the variation, since I spar with the best players in Puerto Rico; one of them uses Liu Kang (Flame Fist) and the most important thing I feel is to learn that he has no overhead starter apart from B2

Just wanted to point out, using only B33 as an example of how to counter Subbie's cancels don't really cover the matchup. F4 has really good reach and literally everything a jail (the only exception being Iceball or both Bursts if you're too far from the opponent and only the tip of your boot hits him, if you're just a bit closer, everything is safe).

Indeed, it is more complex than the video and/or text makes it out to be. What I really wanted was to point out that since it has so much start up you can react to it coming out. I mean there really is no point in doing B3, 3 ~ DB1 unless you have the ice clone out. SZ has alot of mind games, so it really is up to the player.

Thank you for the insight.

 

[ismael4790]

Balanced Kenshi has some matchups that qualify from a nightmare to ridiculously absurd.

Examples: Inferno Scorpion. He can easily punish every single whiffed teleflurry from any distance with low minion into full combo+vortex. Absurd. This means going for a 9% space control move can potentially cost you the whole lifebar.Things like this are demanding a teleflurry recovery frames reduction NOW.

Piercing Mileena. She nullifies Kenshi's zoning with low sai, teleport, and low profiling launcher. She wins up close and at long distance. Things like this are demanding a faster startup for blade reflect...

And much more...

 

[Juanchaaa]

When fighting against annoying ass Liu Kang, who do u think, would do less worse against him ?! Balanced or Kenjutsu, cuz i don't think Possessed can't even start doing something.... lol

I guess it depends on the variation he uses, cause in my experience; I spar with the best players in Puerto Rico & one of them uses Liu Kang (Flame Fist).

as for Possessed, don't discard him; Kenshi has to be played across all variations.

When it comes to the Zone war, Liu Kang can low profile Kenshi's BF3 in the Balanced variation with his Low Fire Ball and even if you try to parry it, it gives liu kang enough time to throw out another low fire ball, Possessed has better mobility options since he has a teleport.

• Note Worthy
  • Liu Kang has no Overhead starters, so always block low.
    • The only overhead he has are
      • B2 14 frames on start up & -11 on block
        • It's an 7% hit
      • He can do 1, 1, 3 (In this situation you can block high in the third hit)
  • When he does his Normal Windmill punches and cancels it into any other special move, you can wait until the last hit of the windmill punch and the start up of the canceled special move to use an EX armored move. Of course this would mean that you need to block accordingly and have the meter to spend it.
    • (Balanced)
      • You can EX Rising Karma
      • You can EX Spirit Push
      • X-Ray
    • (Possessed)
      • You can EX Rising Karma
      • You can EX Spirit Push
      • You can EX Teleport
      • X-Ray
    • (Kenjutsu)
      • You can EX Rising Karma
      • You can EX Rising Karma
      • You can EX Spirit Push
      • You can EX Spinning Blade (BF1 MB)
      • You can EX Tele-Slam (DB4 MB)

• • If he uses his EX Windmill Punches, then everything changes; cause you're gonna have to wait until the very last hit of the string; since there is no "Gap" and even then it doesn't work on every special cancel he does.
  • (This section has more options, you can reversal a lot of things on block) Experiment in training mode
    
    • (Balanced)
      • If he cancels his EX Windmill Punches to any of these special moves, you can punish them with EX Rising Karma:

• • • • • Low Fire Ball (BF3)
        • Fire Ball (BF1)
        • Flying Dragon Kick (BF2)
        • Dragon's Roar (DB2)
          • You can punish the normal and meter burn version of this move
      • Now you cannot punish this with a reversal EX Rising Karma if he ends the windmill with:
        • EX Fire Ball (BF1 MB)
        • EX Flying Dragon Kick (BF2 MB)
    • (Possessed)
      • If he cancels his EX Windmill Punches to any of these special moves, you can punish them with EX Rising Karma:
        
        • Low Fire Ball (BF3)
        • Fire Ball (BF1)
        • Dragon's Roar (DB2)
          • You can punish the normal and meter burn version of this move
      • Now you cannot punish this with a reversal EX Rising Karma if he ends the windmill with:
        • EX Fire Ball (BF1 MB)
        • Flying Dragon Kick (BF2 or BF2 MB)
          • You can punish it with Possessed BF2 MB (Not sure if its worth it, but it's an option)
          • You can EX Teleport out of there, but again (Not sure if its worth it, but it's an option)
    • (Kenjutsu)
      • If he cancels his EX Windmill Punches to any of these special move you can reversal punish them on block:
        
      • Fire Ball
        • You can Punish with a reversal:
          • Rising Karma (Normal and Meter Burned versions)
          • Spinning Blade (Normal and Meter Burned versions)
          • Tele-Slam (Normal and Meter Burned versions)
          • Tele-Push (Normal and Meter Burned versions)
          • Tele-Toss (Normal and Meter Burned versions)
          • X-Ray
      • Low Fire Ball
        • You can Punish with a reversal:
          • Rising Karma (Normal and Meter Burned versions)
          • Spinning Blade (Normal and Meter Burned versions)
          • Tele-Slam (Normal and Meter Burned versions)
          • Tele-Push (Normal and Meter Burned versions)
          • Tele-Toss (Normal and Meter Burned versions)
          • X-Ray
      • Flying Dragon's Kick (Normal & Meter Burned Versions)
        • You can Punish with a reversal:
          • Tele-Push (Normal and Meter Burned versions)
          • Spinning Blade (Normal and Meter Burned versions)
      • Dragons Roar (Normal & Meter Burned Versions)
        • *You can Punish this in between the end of the windmill punches and the start of this one*
          • EX Rising Karma
          • EX Spinning Blade
          • EX Tele-Slam
          • EX Tele-Push
      • Now you cannot punish this on block with a reversal when he ends the windmill punch with
        
        • EX Fire Ball

There is alot of things you can do; but for now try out those options and experiment

Hope it helps, if not; I can do a Short vid demonstrating the "Gap" & by all means doing reversals in this game is pretty intimidating, but once you get the timing down you'll be alright. Now if you where hoping for some Dragons Fire knowledge, then I haven't been in the lab with that one.​

 

[Juanchaaa]

Balanced Kenshi has some matchups that qualify from a nightmare to ridiculously absurd.

Examples: Inferno Scorpion. He can easily punish every single whiffed teleflurry from any distance with low minion into full combo+vortex. Absurd. This means going for a 9% space control move can potentially cost you the whole lifebar.Things like this are demanding a teleflurry recovery frames reduction NOW.

Piercing Mileena. She nullifies Kenshi's zoning with low sai, teleport, and low profiling launcher. She wins up close and at long distance. Things like this are demanding a faster startup for blade reflect...

And much more...

Pretty Much, When it comes to either of those characters I would prefer Possessed; but it's still overwhelming. Let's se what happens in KP2.

But would you say that the MU is imposible? Cause if it's online then of course I would agree 100%, but in an offline scenario it would be alot better in comparison.

 

[ismael4790]

Pretty Much, When it comes to either of those characters I would prefer Possessed; but it's still overwhelming. Let's se what happens in KP2.

But would you say that the MU is imposible? Cause if it's online then of course I would agree 100%, but in an offline scenario it would be alot better in comparison.

Of course nothing is impossible. But if both players have the same skill level and knowledge of the matchup, Inferno Scorpion takes it. And offline it is probably worse for Kenshi because there's no way to miss the teleflurry punish xD

Kenshi just can't teleflurry because the Scorpion player only needs to neutral crouch fullscreen and punish with minion (or teleport), there is A LOT of time to do it, it is a full combo + vortex guaranteed just because Kenshi failed a 9% move. Also, the overhead slice is very easy to react and block, or even teleport out, because it's slow ass. So there's no reason for the Scorpion player not to remain in crouch block for the most part of the match.

So Kenshi is completely outzoned and he's forced to go close, which is totally absurd. Scorpion does not need to take any risks to win here, and Kenshi needs to take all risks, that's the very definition of bad matchup imo.

I'm very shocked that nrs allows this stupid situations to happen. For example, It pisses me off that Fisticuffs Cage got nerfed to the ground because he gave problems to some characters with his pressure (when it was escapable and fair) and at the same time situations like this one are completely ignored. Let's hope that KP2 patches bring some order here.

 

[Juanchaaa]

Of course nothing is impossible. But if both players have the same skill level, Inferno Scorpion takes it. And offline it is probably worse for Kenshi because there's no way to miss the teleflurry punish xD

Kenshi just can't teleflurry because the Scorpion player only needs to neutral crouch fullscreen and punish with minion (or teleport), there is A LOT of time to do it, it is a full combo + vortex guaranteed just because Kenshi failed a 9% move. Also, the overhead slice is very easy to react and block, or even teleport out. So there's no reason for the Scorpion player not to remain in crouch block for the most part of the match.

So Kenshi is completely outzoned and he's forced to go close, which is totally absurd. Scorpion does not need to take any risks to win here, and Kenshi needs to take all risks, that's the very definition of bad matchup imo.

I'm very shocked that nrs allows this stupid situations to happen. It pisses me off that Fisticuffs Cage got nerfed to the ground because he gave problems to some characters with his pressure (when it was escapable) and at the same time situations like this are completely ignored. Let's hope that KP2 patches bring some order here.

I get what you're saying, in this situation you have to be more patient, since you can Block low and react to either Overhead or Low Minion. Most scorpion players go ham, so its going to be a battle of who kills himself the fastest.

• Low Minion is -27 on block, if you block it; it garantees a Tele-Flurry Punish since you have more or less 13 frames to work with (14 if you do it on reversal)
• If he chooses to teleport and you block it, you can easily punish it with B3, 2
• Overhead I have yet to test it out

Overall the randomness of the player will play a huge factor in this MU, so don't get discouraged since it happens to me aswell

 

[ismael4790]

I get what you're saying, in this situation you have to be more patient, since you can Block low and react to either Overhead or Low Minion. Most scorpion players go ham, so its going to be a battle of who kills himself the fastest.

• Low Minion is -27 on block, if you block it; it garantees a Tele-Flurry Punish since you have more or less 13 frames to work with (14 if you do it on reversal)
• If he chooses to teleport and you block it, you can easily punish it with B3, 2
• Overhead I have yet to test it out

Overall the randomness of the player will play a huge factor in this MU, so don't get discouraged since it happens to me aswell

Yeah, of course Scorpion has moves that leave him vulnerable, if not it would be crazy xD

The problem comes when we compare their options. Blocked minion leads to 9% teleflurry punish (wow). Crouched teleflurry is full combo+vortex.
Smart scorpions are not going to abuse of teleport in this matchup, since they are giving you the big source of damage with it.

To win here Kenshi has to do 3 times better reads than the scorp player, and this is sad.

 

[Juanchaaa]

Yeah, of course Scorpion has moves that leave him vulnerable, if not it would be crazy xD

The problem comes when we compare their options. Blocked minion leads to 9% teleflurry punish (wow). Crouched teleflurry is full combo+vortex.
Smart scorpions are not going to abuse of teleport in this matchup, since they are giving you the big source of damage with it.

To win here Kenshi has to do 3 times better reads than the scorp player, and this is sad.

True, 9% does indeed suck, you have to become a Jedi Master in this case; it will only make you stronger if you level up those reads.

 

[Juanchaaa]

Just wanted to point out, using only B33 as an example of how to counter Subbie's cancels don't really cover the matchup. F4 has really good reach and literally everything a jail (the only exception being Iceball or both Bursts if you're too far from the opponent and only the tip of your boot hits him, if you're just a bit closer, everything is safe).

And you are right, the video as a hole doesn't give SZ justice; I Updated the ice clone, hammer, and B2 Section of this Thread.

Ex Ice clone can't be punished
and some normals and/or combo strings canceled into EX Hammer can't be reversal EX special by kenshi.

When it comes to zoning, Ice slide is a great tool for Sub against kenshi, etc...