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Is it possible to have a perfectly balanced fighter?

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
I put "I think" and "is/was" because the last time I really played was CS2 and I never heard about a character sucking so bad no one could use it or character being so good there was no point in fighting them. Maybe I should specify which BB i'm talking about.
 

podizzler3000

http://streamable.com/ti5z
i think its possible. everyone is the same speed with same speed moves just different looking animations and skins
 

HellblazerHawkman

Confused Thanagarian
There arent really special moves, supers, X-rays etc. It is mainly normals and throws. The reason you've never heard of it is because 99% of the FGC finds it super boring BECAUSE it is more balanced than most. Which comes back to Haketh's point about how most people dont actually want a balanced fighting game.



Not going to lie I forgot about Jeffry. Point taken.
People still go nuts for UMVC3 and that game is horribly unbalanced. But we'd all be liars if we said it didn't look cool as hell to watch
 
D

Deleted member 9158

Guest
The new killer instinct I'd pretty damn close last I checked. Things may have changed tho
 

haketh

Champion
I put "I think" and "is/was" because the last time I really played was CS2 and I never heard about a character sucking so bad no one could use it or character being so good there was no point in fighting them. Maybe I should specify which BB i'm talking about.
Dude their were a TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON of shit characters in CS2 & CS2 Valk/Makoto existed. Even now in BBCPEX which is pretty balanced compared to previous entries theirs still characters that are just shit like Terumi, Lambda, Celica.
 

Lumpymoomilk

Online Punching Bag
You really would have to look at it from a perspective of strengths, If some had high damage, but bad mobility/normals ect, some had mobility and speed but low damage, good normal and specials (good options to open people up but lacking in mobility or high damage)

The main issue with NRS games is they give some characters the speed, the damage, the dirt whereas others only get some of them. Making a big gap in character quality.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
People still go nuts for UMVC3 and that game is horribly unbalanced. But we'd all be liars if we said it didn't look cool as hell to watch
There is barely a time I now when I find Marvel more fun to watch than other fighters. The best stuff got figured out so quickly and the best stuff is so simple looking to me I just lose interest.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
Dude their were a TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON of shit characters in CS2 & CS2 Valk/Makoto existed. Even now in BBCPEX which is pretty balanced compared to previous entries theirs still characters that are just shit like Terumi, Lambda, Celica.
IDK about Valk, but Makoto was def not a shit a character. But I don't want to get into that in this thread.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Guys, I really am going ahead with this. I'm too excited not to do it. I love the challenge.

MK started really small and look what it is now...

All I know is it won't be cell animation, it will be scifi, it will have awesome netcode and it will be awesome. Even if it's terrible.
Not to be a downer but trying to create a fighting game entirely by yourself is commendable but not attainable. If you are really serious about making a FG you should look around and see who exactly you would have to hire and how much money it would actually cost.

Either way good luck to you.
 

LucaTheRipper

RULES OF NATURE!
I think it is, KoF XIII was pretty balanced tho
Matter of fact there will always be ''bottom 5'' and people claiming their characters sucks...
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
I'm probably going to get burned at the stake for this but the first ever Season 1 Killer Instinct, without spinal, fulgore and sadira, was the most ballanced one yet.
 

Peckapowa

Champion
character a = ryu character b= ryu

if character b has slightly more range on crouching medium kick, games no longer perfectly balanced.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Honest question, why do you say it is not attainable?

I am a semi-decent programmer and I don't think it will take me too long to start developing for the PS4. Sony have really made an effort to support indie games, and it is easier than ever before. There is at least one open source fighting game I can look at for reference, at least for ides for some things. I make good money and have savings (or credit) to contract out the art and graphics, rendering, audio aspects and anything else I need to. AS well as the many engines available to be licensed (very affordable to me as an indie developer) with extensive documentation and tutorials...I really don't think it is unattainable at all.

Does any of that change your opinion? If not, what am I underestimating?
My point was you have to think about what exactly it takes to make a FG, but since you seem to have started doing that already you seem to be in good shape. It'll definitely be tough but as I said before I wish you the best of luck.
 

PPJ

()
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
@GGA pimpimjim you know what link to paste here.
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-504#post-18792817

Time to flip a table and do some game design school.

Balance is a subtractive design element; in other words, balance is the absence of certain things. Specifically, balance is the absence of factors that degenerate asymmetry.

Balance is the absence of:
  1. Unfairness
  2. Polarization
  3. Homogenization
Unfairness is the strict superiority of options. Melee Fox, Brawl Meta Knight, and Smash 4 Diddy are unfair, which means they are simply better than the other characters on average. Unfairness is the simplest and easiest to identify problem, but it is only only element of balance.

Polarization is certain specific characters beating certain other specific character, regardless of average balance. (aka "counters") Melee Sheik, Brawl DDD, and Smash 4 Little Mac are very polarized characters. Polarization takes more time to identify, and is harder to address.

Homogenization is the absence of asymmetry in the first place. This is the most subjective and difficult to quantify element, but it just as (if not more) important, because it defeats the point of pursuing everything else.


Any two elements can be easily addressed by sacrificing the other, but none of these are acceptable:
  • You can trivially depolarize any game while preserving character diversity if you just accept blatant unfairness.
  • You can trivially solve any unfairness in any game while preserving character diversity if you just make a ring of pure counters.
  • You can trivially remove all unfairness and polarization by making everyone the same character.
None of these games are balanced. If we insist that any of these cases are semantically "balanced", then we have forfeited all meaningful function of the word so the point as moot. At best we could say these cases are "trivially balanced", like the trivial "solution" of a math problem that isn't actually a useful solution at all.


There is perceptually the most confusion from amateur game designers about polarization. Some go so far as to put polarization on a pedestal, actually making imbalance a design goal. Hard facts:
  • Rock-paper-scissors is a terrible game.
  • Rock-paper-scissors is not a balanced game. (As described above)
  • True counters are bad for a game.
  • Hard counters are bad for a game.
  • Soft counters are bad for a game.
  • All the deepest matchups in virtually any competitive game are 5:5.
  • Ideal balance is a matchup chart of entirely 5:5.
  • Yes, this (absolute zero polarization) is impossible, just like absolute zero unfairness is impossible.
  • But this is still the only correct goal.
If any StarCraft matchup exceeds 55:45, that represents a huge balance problem to the game. Blizzard cannot turn Starcraft into rock-paper-scissors and call it a competitive game. 0% of competitive games should be won at the character select screen. They should not even be 10% won at the character select screen.

Blizzard and Riot have the biggest balance design teams in the world. The vast majority of their time and resources goes towards fighting polarization. David Sirlin obsessively balances his games, and spends the vast majority of that time on polarization. When we made BBrawl, probably 90% of our time was dealing with polarization factors.

Unfairness is, in comparison, quite easy.


Final note: The word "counter" is overloaded. We have been talking about top-level, out-of-game-selected elements--like characters in a fighting game, or races in an RTS.

This does not apply at all to local components, such as a fighting game move, a card game card, or an RTS unit. It's okay for ZSS paralyzer to "counter" or "answer" certain moves. (While it's bad for ZSS to have a 9:1 against Fox, or even a 6:4.)

Team-composition games are tricky (Pokemon, LoL, TF2), since characters are only components of your actual team, just like ZSS paralyzer is just a component of her full character. This means they are somewhere in between, resulting in some weird non-zero target of polarization. Some games target more polarization (Pokemon) and some less (LoL), but either way it is a separate and unrelated topic.


tl;dr - Polarization is a component of balance and strictly bad regarding top-level elements of competitive games. It is neither good nor the lesser of any evils. Stop wishing that your intricate and deep competitive games get turned into character select screen rock-paper-scissors.