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Is it possible to have a perfectly balanced fighter?

Briggs8417

Salt Proprietor of TYM
I don't think it's highly possible to have a perfectly balanced fighter due to a combination of factors. Character design, mechanics, bugs/glitches/exploits and other factors that you can't really account for kind of get in the way of this process. It's not to say that people shouldn't strive for it and do their best to mold their work into something perfect or close to it. Could be possible, I just couldn't see it.
 

enkil

Noob
One character with 30 different skins to make him/her look different and containing about 50 moves.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Virtua Fighter says hi.

NRS games are impossible to have perfect balance in because they tend to give everyone radically different tools and playstyles. Even with hundreds of patches you just cant have an NRS game without top tiers and bottom tiers.
 

haketh

Champion
Virtua Fighter says hi.

NRS games are impossible to have perfect balance in because they tend to give everyone radically different tools and playstyles. Even with hundreds of patches you just cant have an NRS game without top tiers and bottom tiers.
Alright all you guys saying VF have you ever actually played or watched high level VF? Cuz believe me MUs & tiers are a thing in that series.
 

bdizzle2700

gotta stay sharp!
I guess I just can't see that.

With all the different movesets available (zoning, grappling, mixup etc) as well as interactibles, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to have a perfectly balanced game while ensuring it was still diverse and fun.

I may well be completely wrong, but I would like to understand why I'm wrong if I am before I give up on this idea.

What is the key to a balance game? To me, it is simply ensuring that every character has an equal chance to beat every other character in the game. Or, that every character is equally viable against every other character.

I really don't think it would be impossible, but it would be a lot of work...
Well even like that. A zoner vs a rushdown. Give the zoner too much the other can never get in. Give rush down too much the zoner cant zone. So you give tbe zoner something to defend him self. Now the can defend and zone out the rush down.
 

haketh

Champion
Yes and yes. There are tiers but all the characters are viable, which is what I thought the OP was talking about.
Even that is extremely debatable with how VF4 & VF5 evolved. Yeah you'll see a Low tier every now & then but it aint that often & usually they're bodied cuz MUs suck.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
If you want to add complexity to the game, by having characters with significant differences, then you come up with a situation where people decide what differences they think are superior. It's easy to say combo x that does 12% is better then combo y that does 10%, but how does that combo fit with the character? Is it a low starter? Is it fast? Add in that the character has a quick teleport. How could you possibly determine on paper how balanced that is compared to another character? And maybe you do figure it out, and then when the game comes players do a million things you never expected them to do. It would have to be tested really hard after the character is conceived, which of course they do. You could make 2 characters with complex special moves, combos and movement. You could work solely on those two characters for years and still not have it perfectly balanced. You have to give characters moves to make them fun and unique, then you have to give them combos and balance out the damage as well as simply making it work. The more characters you add, the less balanced the game becomes as a result. If you wanted to make the game super simple, that task is a lot easier, but there's a reason that games people worked on for years end up having broken characters and unbalanced tiers. There's just far, far, far too many nuances to these types of games for them to perfectly balance it. And to my point, patch or no patch, watch how many random characters end up being a lot better then they were initially thought to be. Combos and strategies are discovered after months and years that change how "good" a character is. That just goes to show how difficult it is to truly balance something like this.
 

Espio

Kokomo
You don't need a perfectly balanced fighting game, perfection is not attainable by people, but what is possible is to make a roster where everyone can compete with each other reasonably well and a roster where everyone has a place in competitive play.

There is nothing wrong with losing match ups, winning match ups and what not, but there is something very wrong with characters having match ups that are so flawed that player skill ceases to truly matter, getting rid of match ups like that should be the goal.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
I would never use the word "perfectly" but you can get balance to a level where no one has much complaints about using a character. (Because there will always be something to complain about).

I think the best case is/was Blazblue. No one ever seemed to be limited by their character choice. There were tiers but a character was only better by a slight edge. It helps that the roster is around 20ish(?).

A larger scale fighter I believe has pretty good balance is Tekken. I think this stems from how the system benefits everyone. Everyone can sidestep to dodge things, everyone has a bound moves to combo, everyone can crush moves. Some characters are better than others in different aspects but that's bound to happen if you make a fun game.

So I think to get really close you'd need a system that doesn't favor one character over the other (SF4s FADC, MKx stamina system. When there are measures in place to help everyone more characters can be competitive. (KoF rolls and blowbacks, Tekken's system). Combine that with a small, manageable roster and I think you can get pretty close. The trick after that is to make sure whenever you add things it doesn't drastically tip the scales in one way. (Tanya's incredible movement compared to everyone else, Shaheen in Tekken has a safe hop kick.)
 
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TarkatanDentist

Kombatant
Answer to the OP depends entirely on what definition of 'perfectly balanced' you're going by.

If it means 'literally every character has an equal chance of winning as any other character at the highest level', then that's literally only possible if every character has exactly the same moves, move properties, miscellaneous other stuff like walk speed, hurtbox size etc.

If it just means 'any character can potentially beat any other character at the highest level', then yes, it's not only possible, but games of that calibre very much exist already.
 

C88 Zombieekiler

Up and coming sub zero
If you want a fun game with a lot of variety its not possible to have a completly balanced fighter but if you want a dull peice of shit 1 character fighter with no personality then yes its possible
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
I'm not familiar with Virtua Fighter. How tame are the tools and playstyles in VF compared to an NRS game?
There arent really special moves, supers, X-rays etc. It is mainly normals and throws. The reason you've never heard of it is because 99% of the FGC finds it super boring BECAUSE it is more balanced than most. Which comes back to Haketh's point about how most people dont actually want a balanced fighting game.

Even that is extremely debatable with how VF4 & VF5 evolved. Yeah you'll see a Low tier every now & then but it aint that often & usually they're bodied cuz MUs suck.
Not going to lie I forgot about Jeffry. Point taken.
 

HellblazerHawkman

Confused Thanagarian
I guess I just can't see that.

With all the different movesets available (zoning, grappling, mixup etc) as well as interactibles, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to have a perfectly balanced game while ensuring it was still diverse and fun.

I may well be completely wrong, but I would like to understand why I'm wrong if I am before I give up on this idea.

What is the key to a balance game? To me, it is simply ensuring that every character has an equal chance to beat every other character in the game. Or, that every character is equally viable against every other character.

I really don't think it would be impossible, but it would be a lot of work...
That's the right idea, and you are right, it would take a lot of work. In a game with 2 characters, you'd want to give both pro's and con's that don't make them worse than the other while still being distinctly different, right? That's not so hard. Add another, then you'd have to give the new guy tools to compete with the original 2, while giving them new tools to deal with the new character and also not becoming significantly better compared to the original. So on and so forth the more fighters you add. That's why Killer Instinct was really balanced when it came out (don't know how it stands now, haven't heard diddly about it in months) because it had like 8 guys. In this day and age, it comes down to whether or not you want a lot of cool fighters or not so many options, but more competitive options. And the casual consumer might not go for the latter when they can spend their $60 on the game that gives them more guys. The amount of time and effort going into balancing a game like MK: Armageddon isn't cost productive.