Loopable pressure discussion

[jharris]

learn the strings and gaps

 

[DrManhattan]

You do not know the struggle of F2 if you wrote this.



Only plus cancel is stand 4 If I am remembering rightly at like +1 or 2 the rest are negative with F3 being a just frame -6. Also Jax's pressure is good but you have options at all times. So you can simply full combo punish me for RC'ing and pressing a button. Jax is at most plus 2 on block so you can always low poke my high starter attempts or wait out my quicker b1 mid and accept the pushback.

i like your post and I 100% agree with you. u do have options vs his pressure. however, the meter nurned loopable strings u do not.

 

[DrManhattan]

Cages f3 the best footsies tool in the game ? It's -8 and might as well be -1,000,000 on whiff. Jax f21 may be able to be low profile bit I think it's WAAAYAY better.

on block cancel it and you are nearly +10. on hit... do the same exact thing and you combo off it for >34% and a corner carry. make someone block a f3 and they are jailed until stamina is gone if you have the execution. even then he can do a string and cancel to mb fireball and be +4 and get his stamina back.

lui kang would be just as crazy if he had the dizzy knee or d4 that cage does

 

[DrManhattan]

Why do idiots who have no idea what they're talking about try and suggest major changes to the game?

can you give a specific example or some information that may be wrong?

 

[M2Dave]

Why was this thread closed initially? Not surprisingly, rush down fools want simple offense.

I have to address the following, though.

Quan Chi - summoner
- The most lop sided character in my life of playing video games. The best zoning I have ever seen with a sinestro like bat that can make zoning unpredictable and a MB rune that is more than +14. He has a standing reset that has more depth than sinestro or batgirl and can be made safe. BUT he has dhalsim like defense and can easily be drained of all his life. Luckily, the game has rounds...
- Do you guys realize the best quan chi's out there touch you one time and you have to block until he is out of meter. He can cancel everything into MB rune and be +14. He can loop an exotic amount of mix ups.
- I recommend making meter burn rune +4 or 5 and giving him a viable wakeup armor move.
- OR do not allow quan chi to activate a bat while an opponent is in trance and give him a viable armor wakeup move.

Stop being a fool. The design may be unappealing, but it is functional. Who would have thought that a character with the least defensive options in an absurdly offensive game could be viable? Quan Chi's gameplay design works.

Cages f3 the best footsies tool in the game ? It's -8 and might as well be -1,000,000 on whiff.

Just not in A-List when f+3 is properly canceled from a shadow kick. Another f+3 may in fact be uninterruptible on block.

 

[DrManhattan]

learn the strings and gaps

vs shinnok and quan, there are ways to make no gaps, jacqui's (when done right) has no gap. shinnok if he has 2.5 bars gets ~30 % (someone in a previous post said 10% but they are just wrong). he also corner carries u

 

[Scott The Scot]

Why do idiots who have no idea what they're talking about try and suggest major changes to the game?

Because they think they know what they're talking about, of course

 

[Undeadjim]

i like your post and I 100% agree with you. u do have options vs his pressure. however, the meter nurned loopable strings u do not.

Jax has no meterburned loopable pressure, the best 'loopable' pressure he gets is 11.

Care to explain what you think is loopable?

 

[DrManhattan]

Because they think they know what they're talking about, of course

can u give a specific example?

 

[DrManhattan]

Jax has no meterburned loopable pressure, the best 'loopable' pressure he gets is 11.

Care to explain what you think is loopable?

i was referring to shinnok or like characters. jax does not have loopable pressure. he does have very good frame traps though. and a command grap to sneak in here and there.

 

[Undeadjim]

i was referring to shinnok or like characters. jax does not have loopable pressure. he does have very good frame traps though. and a command grap to sneak in here and there.

Gotcha (no pun intended) just wanted to clear this up. Although Jax is a beast when he gets in his pressure is entirely read based.

 

[Scott The Scot]

can u give a specific example?

Example? I probably could, but I won't.

 

[DrManhattan]

Why was this thread closed initially? Not surprisingly, rush down fools want simple offense.

I have to address the following, though.



Stop being a fool. The design may be unappealing, but it is functional. Who would have thought that a character with the least defensive options in an absurdly offensive game could be viable? Quan Chi's gameplay design works.



Just not in A-List when f+3 is properly canceled from a shadow kick. Another f+3 may in fact be uninterruptible on block.

that is a very good question.. why was it closed in the first place

if you take the loopable pressure from everyone... quan doesn't get to keep it. if quan chi makes u block something or hits a d3, you have to block 5-10 mix ups before he is out of bar. specially when staggering the mix ups

 

[ando1184]

To be honest idk why you guys are blowing up @DrManhattan, even if numbers are off by a little the point is still being made. These characters have drastically better offensive options than half the cast, (more than half if you include every variation). We all remember mk9 kabal right? He had this stuff and literally made the game no more fun to watch imo. If a character has strengths that out weigh their weaknesses and vice versa, that screams unbalanced. I think the point of this thread is to bring awareness and ask for a balanced game. What's so unreasonable about that? There's no denying that Shinnok is one of the best overall characters in the game and there's no denying that characters like Quan Chi, D'Vorah, or LK can keep you blocking or guessing for days. I've been ok with 50/50's and vortex characters to an extent, but characters that can have safe 50/50's that lead to high damage combos on top of ending the combo in a vortex is where people have to draw the line. Then there's pseudo infinite block pressure, guys we are going from one busted mechanic to the next. There needs to be balance and it can be attained if we actually discuss instead of blowing someone up for posting an "out of the box" idea, just saying.

 

[TakeAChance]

I'm just happy Mileena's Gimmicky loopable Ethereal pressure is off this list lol

 

[WidowPuppy]

Jacqui - full auto
- not well known and surely not very well know to the Yomi guys. Jacqui can cancel f12 to MB uprocket and be +30ish. She gets a free run up overhead/low that leads to 44%. Mind you, there were purposeful option selects built into her b33 and b2. Only moves in the game that do not cancel on block... ever. Even if you screw up the time.
- she is able to loop f12 mb up rocket mid screen or in the corner. it is her only saving grace right now in addition to her walk speed.
- Jacui is plagued by her horrendous normals. Shinnok can do f41d2plasma and it leaves jacqui at a range were d1 and d3 whiff and will get whiffed punished by a follow up d1 or f4. Jaqui's only pokes that will erach Shinnok in this scenario are f1 and d4... both start up in more that 14 frames. So Shinnock is -3 off plasma and has a 6 frame d1 and a 7 frame f4. He has a 10 frame window to hit you before Jacqui's only pokes can reach him. Shinnok does that to ALOT OF CHARACTERS AND DOES NOT REQUIRE METER TO LOOP PEOPLE.
- I recommend Jacqui MB up rocket be +4 or 5. If jacqui gets an 8 frame d4 she will get her turn back just like shinnok and be a beast.

F12 to MB Up Rocket loopable, lol.

 

[lm Tweakk]

Cassies B1 is -7 and has the same range and it's regarded as one of the best footsie tools. F3 is a solid footsie tool and is one of the best in the game for sure.

The full string is plus on block though. I mean yeah you can armor It , but that's just more mind games. And don't forget you have EX flipkick to make it always safe. Also barely any whiff recovery. Cassies b1 is better in my opinion.

 

[Scott The Scot]

The full string is plus on block though. I mean yeah you can armor It , but that's just more mind games. And don't forget you have EX flipkick to make it always safe. Also barely any whiff recovery. Cassies b1 is better in my opinion.

In my opinion they're practically the same move except one uses a knee and one uses an elbow. Both amazing for whiff punishing and putting some fear into the opponents at that range.

 

[QUAN-FUSION]

So you want every character in the game to play the same way?

Quans gameplay is unique. He doesn't have the same defensive options as the rest of the cast so in turn is given awesome offensive options.
Do you know how your proposed changes would affect his other variations?
If he was +5 on MB rune he would be poked out of all follow up mixups
His normals are slow af
And you not only affect his pressure but his zoning capabilities too..

 

[Laos_boy]

Yesterday you said Kitanas Glaive pressure was uninterruptable. But it is.

 

[DrManhattan]

you are pointing out a minority.

F12 to MB Up Rocket loopable, lol.

u are pointing out a minoritt. thank you. for the small box/strange hit box characters like reptile/mileena et cetera u just do f1 mb uprocket instead. leaves u at ~+20-30 depending if duck or stand blocking

 

[DrManhattan]

I'm just happy Mileena's Gimmicky loopable Ethereal pressure is off this list lol

does she have it? im not aware. i do not think i have ever seen the character played.

 

[DrManhattan]

The full string is plus on block though. I mean yeah you can armor It , but that's just more mind games. And don't forget you have EX flipkick to make it always safe. Also barely any whiff recovery. Cassies b1 is better in my opinion.

easily interrupted be for the last hit of the string. cage cannot be low profiled and you are almost +10 on cancel

 

[TakeAChance]

does she have it? im not aware. i do not think i have ever seen the character played.

If she has 3 bars she can get a guaranteed 14%

I mean, it's not much, but it's funny to win matches with lol

 

[DrManhattan]

So you want every character in the game to play the same way?

Quans gameplay is unique. He doesn't have the same defensive options as the rest of the cast so in turn is given awesome offensive options.
Do you know how your proposed changes would affect his other variations?
If he was +5 on MB rune he would be poked out of all follow up mixups
His normals are slow af
And you not only affect his pressure but his zoning capabilities too..

plus 5 would allow him a free d3 check with is -1 or +1... i forget.

as for playing the same? no. but letting a character get his turn back and keep it for days... without consequences? does not belong in a fighting game.

let me be clear. i am dr manhattan. i can see the future. i can see things so slow that you would have never even thought they happened.

i am giving you guys a glimpse into the future (seriously though). unless things change you will be limited to ~5 or so viable characters at the highest level of play. among other things... this type of pressure is why they will crap on people.