Question - Kung Lao Honest Question

[6ixty9]

Let me start by saying that this post is about self-improvement and I am not looking for nerfs or having a cry.

Online where i am sucks so this is all strictly offline talk. I basically only ever play against 1 friend - in my local area there is no FGC etc. As you can guess, my friend plays Kung Lao - and he's good!

When i first started playing i played Takeda and it was fun... however as my friend got better - the weaknesses of Takeda became more and more evident. Naturally i swapped it up and went to Raiden. I was back in the glory seat. Then came the raiden nerfs. At this point i decided i wouldnt play a character just because it was 'top tier' at the time and decided to start learning a variety of characters so that vsing each other wouldnt get stale.

Fast Forward 3 months and I can play 10 or so characters at an average to above average skill level and 1 (kitana) better than all the others. It keeps things fresh. My friend still only play Lao. 500hrs of training mode and vs etc later and hes godlike (never drops a combo and seems to be able to convert any poke or pressure into 40%+ with ease)

So now on to my questions... (thank you for sticking with me so far!!!)

1) What do Lao players find to be his biggest weakness? My friend rarely loses so he has trouble answering this question. Im lucky to steal around let alone a match.

2) What characters are just plan bad matchups? Ive played a lot and to me I find Lao is too good (but my knowledge of those characters are lesser - hence the self-improvement needed)

3) Where exactly in your pressure are you most vulnerable? Being on the receiving end of a beating it feels like all his pressure strings are safe (or safe options), there's very few gaps that leave you open to a full meterless combo punish, really strong air to air (i jump too much apparently!), excellent wake-up and did i mention strong pokes that seem to be able to be converted into full combos or just more block pressure?.... So many rounds i have lost that just felt free. Im honestly wanting to improve. I realise im doing things wrong I just dont know where to improve and my friend doesnt have the knowledge to help.

4) What opponent strategies give you the hardest time? I've tried palying super defensive and trying to block all the mix-ups (and im getting VERY good at it but eventually ill guess wrong or react too slow and eat 40% for my troubles because i can never find the opening to attack back). I've tried playing full rushdown. Ive tried mashing. I've tried my hardest to be smart and unpredictable but it never works =/. Like i said, occasionally i play smarter and make all the right predictions and do all the right mix-ups and i win a round. But the next round it goes to poo, i get caught pushing a button and half my health is gone in 1 combo

5) Any other general advice? Im open to learning new characters (i'll probably learn them all eventually). Anything like "wait for XXXX then full punish" etc. Not really sure - feel free


Thanks for helping me out. Im not looking to give my friend a beating... i just want to make things competitive again. I feel like he's reached the potential of Lao and I can barely challenge it. I want to be on the same level and be competitive at that level so that we go even and it actually comes down to mind games and predictions and footsies etc like in high level tourney's.


List of characters i play(ed): Takeda, Kitana, Jax, Scorpion, Mileena, Kotal Kahn, F/T, Raiden, Predator, Kenshi, Quan Chi, Johnny Cage --- (just in case this info is useful)

 

[The_Tile]

You say you use Kitana, go watch the Evo finals where Sonic uses Kitana vs Foxy's Lao. That will pretty much show you how to play that matchup. I don't think it's in her favor but it could easily be a 5-5, which is good considering Lao apparently has no bad matchups. Kitana just needs to play patient and zone him with fans, it limits his mobility due to the massive damage she can get off each projectile.

I can give you a couple of tips for Quan too, D3xxTrance is one of the best counters for Lao's teleports imo. I'm starting to be able to anti air on reaction online now, so after practice you should be able to consistently hit him out of teleports which really limits his mobility. This is where you can set up your nasty zoning game. In Summoner you can start to zone with Puggles and try to bait out teleports. After he realises this he might start going for divekicks and you can anti air those with Puggle's B+Lt. If you're in Sorceror the same thing applies except the divekicks are a little more troublesome if you dont have your armor out, but you can still bait those out too with normal runes and skulls it's just a bit more difficult.

I recently picked up Lao myself and tbh, I can't see no weaknesses. One thing that comes to mind is that you can armor inbetween his F23 string but there aren't any real weaknesses to his overall game imo. I also got hit out of non-ExOrbitingHat the other day after a blockstring by an ordinary Mileena roll, this might be nice to note if you ever want to interrupt his safe hatspin.

 

[6ixty9]

Thank you for your reply.

Ive watched the evo fight many times and to be honest, Sonic Fox is just on another level. I firmly believe he can make any character look good. Not saying Kitana isnt good - she definitely is, those buffs helped her out a butt load. She's in a good spot right now. And like you said, you have to zone. I guess my problem is eventually he gets off a teleport, gets some real good damage off it and then he's in and im back to square 1. I'll try make my fan spam less predictable to bait out the teleport i guess. Sometimes when i do that though he just walks in. Again, this is just more gaps in my own play - nothing Lao specific.

I guess i also need to look into being able to convert any fans i do land into bigger damage. I know how to do the unbreakable fan combos (fanspam i like to call it) but i guess i should be looking for more. Maybe force him to spend meter breaking my combos for a change. Lack of an overhead does make the matchup harder when Lao dictates the pace. Its that "never ending" pressure that frustrates me the most. I've gotten good at converting an EX reversal into ~30% damage so at least thats a threat now and gives me some breathing room on wake up.

Any other answers to the questions / advice / feedback more than welcome

 

[DrFolmer]

Kung Lao's weakness is Kung Lao.

Seriously though, zoning seems to be somewhat a weakness for him - at least when you look at how SonicFox played it. Kung Lao's teleport is still somewhat risky in MKX but you still can't mindlessly zone. It just seems like he takes more of a risk with his teleport than you do with projectiles (kitana's case). But even in this situation it's about reads. If he reads the projectile and teleports you're fucked. Kung Lao is just cancer. Just seems to be a skill matchup.

Can we have a MK game without having a super tuned Kung Lao pls

 

[TheGoldenJew]

only true weakness imo is lack of low starters (F23)…If your opponent attempts to use 44 on block that string can be armored through on the 2nd 4.

 

[MK_Al]

I'll try to break some things down from my personal point of view. There are som many options on what KL can do and what you can do it's impossible to list them all. I'll try to give my impression on what works most of the time, and you have to see if this works for you.
First off, you kind of play a lot of chars. I play all kinds of KL but still I feel there's much to improve and much left to learn for me. Playing (or having tried) 11 chars would in my case mean that I would play them all pretty basic and therefore not win a thing. But maybe thats just me. Also, when your friend converts everything and you don't then it's no wonder he wins, thats not KL specific; it's rather the ability to anticipate the situation and know your options (though he has really good damage). If I where you, I'd stick with 1 or 2 chars and try to take them to the highest possible level.
If you can record your matches, analyze them, find your bad habits and learn from your mistakes. You could even upload some vids to TYM to get some better help, because right now I don't know on what level you (or your friend) are.
KL has no 50/50ies and besides f23 no low combo starters, so you need to focus on blocking high (If you see the f2 coming, always block low afterwards unless you make a read. f14 has a low on second hit as well, but you have enough time to recognice the f1 and full combo punish after the 4). Outside of poke (d3) range there is no reason to ever block low.
It is in my opinion crucial to learn the ranges from where he can jump or b2 / f2. Be alert when he crosses those distances and act accordingly (challenge him, retreat or be ready to block). If you get hit by b2 / f2 your spacing and footsies need some polish. If you get hit by jumpins you need to get you AAs down (or backdash and whiffpunish or NJP).
His hat spin is -3 on block. KL is not allowed to push buttons afterwards, unless you respect it (for no reason). Also you can meter burn every hat toss and orbiting hat and start your combo. Except for f23 xx DB1 you can always backdash the hat (again KL is safe, but it is your turn to start your offence). If you don't backdash or meter burn, and he cancels into orbiting hat, you have to respect his +12f advantage.
His 1 and 11 are +1 and his 44 is +2. So, if I haven't forgotten something, you can at least poke after any string besides those and orbiting hat. Mind he can cancel into spin after most strings and convert your counterpoke attempt into good damage - so you have to know his habits as well. Canceling into spin after a blocked string is a high risk for KL.
You can backdash f2*3, 4*4, 1121*2 (some chars, when blocked crouching) and 11212*4. You can armor through f2*3, 4*4 and 11212*4.
Don't miss to punish blocked spins, DKs (when the DK whiffs in front of you KL still has some recovery frames) and TPs. They are all punishable.

Right now i'm running out of time, but I hope it's a good starting point. Good luck.

 

[Amazing Muzzy Wallace]

I'll try to break some things down from my personal point of view. There are som many options on what KL can do and what you can do it's impossible to list them all. I'll try to give my impression on what works most of the time, and you have to see if this works for you.
First off, you kind of play a lot of chars. I play all kinds of KL but still I feel there's much to improve and much left to learn for me. Playing (or having tried) 11 chars would in my case mean that I would play them all pretty basic and therefore not win a thing. But maybe thats just me. Also, when your friend converts everything and you don't then it's no wonder he wins, thats not KL specific; it's rather the ability to anticipate the situation and know your options (though he has really good damage). If I where you, I'd stick with 1 or 2 chars and try to take them to the highest possible level.
If you can record your matches, analyze them, find your bad habits and learn from your mistakes. You could even upload some vids to TYM to get some better help, because right now I don't know on what level you (or your friend) are.
KL has no 50/50ies and besides f23 no low combo starters, so you need to focus on blocking high (If you see the f2 coming, always block low afterwards unless you make a read. f14 has a low on second hit as well, but you have enough time to recognice the f1 and full combo punish after the 4). Outside of poke (d3) range there is no reason to ever block low.
It is in my opinion crucial to learn the ranges from where he can jump or b2 / f2. Be alert when he crosses those distances and act accordingly (challenge him, retreat or be ready to block). If you get hit by b2 / f2 your spacing and footsies need some polish. If you get hit by jumpins you need to get you AAs down (or backdash and whiffpunish or NJP).
His hat spin is -3 on block. KL is not allowed to push buttons afterwards, unless you respect it (for no reason). Also you can meter burn every hat toss and orbiting hat and start your combo. Except for f23 xx DB1 you can always backdash the hat (again KL is safe, but it is your turn to start your offence). If you don't backdash or meter burn, and he cancels into orbiting hat, you have to respect his +12f advantage.
His 1 and 11 are +1 and his 44 is +2. So, if I haven't forgotten something, you can at least poke after any string besides those and orbiting hat. Mind he can cancel into spin after most strings and convert your counterpoke attempt into good damage - so you have to know his habits as well. Canceling into spin after a blocked string is a high risk for KL.
You can backdash f2*3, 4*4, 1121*2 (some chars, when blocked crouching) and 11212*4. You can armor through f2*3, 4*4 and 11212*4.
Don't miss to punish blocked spins, DKs (when the DK whiffs in front of you KL still has some recovery frames) and TPs. They are all punishable.

Right now i'm running out of time, but I hope it's a good starting point. Good luck.

Yea this basically it in a nut shell. Especially if you play kitana, use fans from a distance. Eventually, he is gonna jump,tp,or divekick. Even you spot a string that you can armor thru then punish him. Also, let's say you have the knockdown on him, don't wait to close to him since he will have a ex spin. Instead get some space between y'all. Better yet on the safer side, back up even more to repeat the fan zoning process

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Kung lao is an interesting top tier character because for the most part he's actually a pretty fair character. J2 is kind of bullshit and his pressure is great but he isn't the kind of character that has one ridiculous tactic that you need to learn to deal with. He's just really solid at everything. What this means is that you really do just have to outplay your opponent which in some ways can be harder than normal but I would personally prefer. It can be harder because there is no obvious gameplan. Against quan for example, if you can get a knockdown, you can win. You can avoid his bullshit by exploiting a weakness. Against kung lao, that's not going to happen. You have to be able to fight him anywhere on screen. This requires a lot more knowledge so definitely listen to what other people here have said and get in the lab.

However, the good news and why I actually prefer it is you can beat kung lao anyway you can best take advantage of your opponent. You can beat him upclose if that's what will get you the win, you can zone him out if that's what will get you the win. You really have to beat the player, not the character. To do this, you need to work on your fundamentals. Which essentially means playing a lot and losing a lot. Try to stick to one character though, and figure out why you're losing so that you can fix it. Not just the exact thing he's beating you with (you said his pressure) but also how you are ending up in that situation where he can use that tactic.

A good example of this, in mk9 I was playing Johnny Cage who was an insane pressure character. And one of my sparring partners just kept losing to me. We probably played 100 games straight and he was trying everything to get out of the pressure. Armor, pokes, jumping, anything he could. But nothing was working, even if he got out it wouldn't matter cuz I'd get right back in. Naturally, at the end of the set he was pretty upset and he basically was calling the character bullshit. But that was when I told him his mistake. He was so obsessed with finding a way out of the pressure that he wasn't focused on the rest of the game. If he had looked at the bigger picture he would have realized that I was starting my pressure with the same setup every time. If he had found a way to stop that, he wouldn't need to figure out his escape to the pressure because I wouldn't have gotten it started.

Anyway, enough rambling. Basically, first make sure you know the ins and outs of the matchup. Then work on leveling up your fundamentals so that you can beat him as a player. And finally, if something specific is beating you, don't get tunnel vision, look at the bigger picture and find out how you can keep yourself out of that bad situation.

 

[6ixty9]

Anyway, enough rambling. Basically, first make sure you know the ins and outs of the matchup. Then work on leveling up your fundamentals so that you can beat him as a player. And finally, if something specific is beating you, don't get tunnel vision, look at the bigger picture and find out how you can keep yourself out of that bad situation.

All good posts so far... i think this sums up my experience nicely. Thank you to whoever pointed out the gaps in the strings that i can backdash / armour through. I only knew of one of those and rarely got a chance to use it. The 4*4 is so easy to react to block for me now - i think i should be able to mix it up with a backdash or armour'd move. This might help to relieve some of the pressure.

The annoying thing is i dont know whether my friend knows these gaps and what is safe and what isnt and just wont tell me, or whether he honestly doesnt know. When ever i play a new character and destroy him, i tell him what is overhead and what is low and what is unsafe etc if he's like "WTF how do you block that - thats OP". Maybe im just a nice guy and should let him suffer a little and take the couple of wins while i can lol. Jokes aside - i should probably hit the lab more against a KL dummy and do some further testing myself. I wish i could just set up a recording of his pressure strings etc on random and then try react that way - the AI just doesnt cut it.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

All good posts so far... i think this sums up my experience nicely. Thank you to whoever pointed out the gaps in the strings that i can backdash / armour through. I only knew of one of those and rarely got a chance to use it. The 4*4 is so easy to react to block for me now - i think i should be able to mix it up with a backdash or armour'd move. This might help to relieve some of the pressure.

The annoying thing is i dont know whether my friend knows these gaps and what is safe and what isnt and just wont tell me, or whether he honestly doesnt know. When ever i play a new character and destroy him, i tell him what is overhead and what is low and what is unsafe etc if he's like "WTF how do you block that - thats OP". Maybe im just a nice guy and should let him suffer a little and take the couple of wins while i can lol. Jokes aside - i should probably hit the lab more against a KL dummy and do some further testing myself. I wish i could just set up a recording of his pressure strings etc on random and then try react that way - the AI just doesnt cut it.

I say let him figure it out himself! Haha. That is how me and my sparring partners leveled up in fighting games in general. We abused whatever worked and forced each other to do research and find solutions and just practice in general to keep up. We just naturally got better and better to the point where we got legitimately good at mk9 in particular. It may sound stupid to not just tell somebody in casuals "Oh this is how you escape this" or whatever but it promotes the mentality of leveling up. I wouldn't purposely not answer a question or give misinformation but keep using what works until it doesn't.

 

[TheGoldenJew]

Add me on psn: The_Golden_Jew1

 

[6ixty9]

Add me on psn: The_Golden_Jew1

I play on PC in australia - hence the lack of a local scene and mostly offline play

PS4 in australia good from what i've been told but i dont live in a city so lag my still be an issue...


My friend has only just caught on that i neutral jump punch twice in a row... that has worked for SOOOOOO long lol. now i can mix it up with 1 njp > land > throw or low so all good