Match-Up Discussion - Johnny Cage BS shinnock matchup

[Wigy]

Hello, i know theres a mstchup discussion thread but its rather huge and cluttered now, and this is probably johnnys worst matchup so was wondering if anybody had an approach for it.

I think this might be a SD matchup which is annoying as i use a list.

His zoning is rediculous and up close he has a 7frame low and 6 frame poke, both way faster than anything Johnny has, he can bait any projectile or clone toss with that armoured 3/4 scythe thing, for a full combo, its impossible to get in and when you do he can get you off him without too much of an issue.

Jesus, this matchup horrible.. I thought he might have holes on his 7f start string, cause its seemed insane, but no.. it has no holes.. and yes it is safe...

anyone throw me a bone here.. i've got the point i change to takeda for this matchup..... takeda... let that sink in.

(most of my MU experience is online where its too laggy to reversal SK those douchesparks)

 

[Name v.5.0]

Hello, i know theres a mstchup discussion thread but its rather huge and cluttered now, and this is probably johnnys worst matchup so was wondering if anybody had an approach for it.

I think this might be a SD matchup which is annoying as i use a list.

His zoning is rediculous and up close he has a 7frame low and 6 frame poke, both way faster than anything Johnny has, he can bait any projectile or clone toss with that armoured 3/4 scythe thing, for a full combo, its impossible to get in and when you do he can get you off him without too much of an issue.

Jesus, this matchup horrible.. I thought he might have holes on his 7f start string, cause its seemed insane, but no.. it has no holes.. and yes it is safe...

anyone throw me a bone here.. i've got the point i change to takeda for this matchup..... takeda... let that sink in.

(most of my MU experience is online where its too laggy to reversal SK those douchesparks)

I just saw this. Let me tell you...Stunt Double doesnt do any better. You cant safely get out a mimic EVER. Bone Shaper is incredibly bad.

 

[Wigy]

Its annoying how hes also annoyingly braindead.

Kitana matchup is almost just as bad with her endless buffs.

Really praying for buffs or something cause shnnock is at least a 7-3

 

[Amplified$hotz]

You spelt Shinnok wrong in purpose, write?

 

[RM slacked]

and this is probably johnnys worst matchup

You forgot about Kotal.

 

[Wigy]

You forgot about Kotal.

How so?

 

[Dja_Homies]

I just saw this. Let me tell you...Stunt Double doesnt do any better. You cant safely get out a mimic EVER. Bone Shaper is incredibly bad.

You can get a safe reload on shinnok since his reversals are so slow lmao. S4 into mimic is safe against all his reversal options. The thing is you have to safely wait instead of sending the clone out. If they try reversaling you get the punish. Other than that I think the mu is 5-5 at best or a light 6-4 for shinnok at worst. Just have to play the mu patiently and play your pressure right instead of unwisely and unsafely.

 

[Name v.5.0]

You can get a safe reload on shinnok since his reversals are so slow lmao. S4 into mimic is safe against all his reversal options. The thing is you have to safely wait instead of sending the clone out. If they try reversaling you get the punish. Other than that I think the mu is 5-5 at best or a light 6-4 for shinnok at worst. Just have to play the mu patiently and play your pressure right instead of unwisely and unsafely.

All versions of Shinnok can punish a clone call (with no mimic shadow kick) with F4~combo. Try it. Especially dangerous to allow Bone Shaper to do F4,1 (D2 or DF2). I dont wanna call mimics just to be put into a mixup....I guess wrong a lot.

Best case scenario you create a mind game and he armors through you into combo, or you mimic shadow kick him when he goes for F4. All in all that's in Shinnok's advantage.

I cant find any reason to call Bone Shaper better than 3-7 and Imposter 4-6.

 

[Dja_Homies]

All versions of Shinnok can punish a clone call (with no mimic shadow kick) with F4~combo. Try it. Especially dangerous to allow Bone Shaper to do F4,1 (D2 or DF2). I dont wanna call mimics just to be put into a mixup....I guess wrong a lot.

Best case scenario you create a mind game and he armors through you into combo, or you mimic shadow kick him when he goes for F4. All in all that's in Shinnok's advantage.

I cant find any reason to call Bone Shaper better than 3-7 and Imposter 4-6.

It's called conditioning. Not every thing in the game is meant to be free. His overhead is punishable overall so shinnok will go for a low more. Also from what I recall you love the mind games that stunt double brings it if you get in the shinnoks head you get a huge reward. Once you're in shinnok has a tough time on knockdown since his wakeups are quite punishable. If he tries to armor after you beat out his f4 once you can read it and get a 50% midscreen combo for 1 bar. The mu is all about conditioning and getting in by playing smartly and wisely. Being impatient will get you killed obviously but johnny does well when he's in. 7-3 is way too farfetched and imposter is easily 5-5. Also in terms ofthe f41 d2 or scoop. Most shinnoks will go for the d2 into gun. Scoop is super punishable and once again they'll eat 33%-50% if you block it. Plus I need further testing but that mixup might be fuzzyable from what I've tested so far.

 

[Wigy]

How is this anything but 6-4 or worse.

He has a 7 frame low and a 6 frame poke along with combo starting armour all of which gets you off him. He completely outzones the fuck of you and can barely get out clone. A list has little to no options.

He can literally use his low as a poking tool and u eat like 35% into a standing reset 50/50. Yeah the overhead is punishable but its very difficult.

His armour is punishable like pretty much all armour in this game, he can still punish SK Clone on read for full combo and sludge ball pretty much on reaction with it.

In no universe is this 5-5.

I must be missing some crucial matchup info or something. Nothing of what you've said has convinced me otherwise.

 

[bdizzle2700]

Isnt shadow kick a free get in move if he does gun? Not to mention its a high so walking in and getting into sparkles range and thats where the mind games start? If hes running in wouldnt it makes sense to like njp to counter his pokes? Im sure theres more options than what your saying. Just a friendly player trying to help.

 

[Red Reaper]

Shinnok sux. I'm picking up Kitana...

 

[Wigy]

Isnt shadow kick a free get in move if he does gun? Not to mention its a high so walking in and getting into sparkles range and thats where the mind games start? If hes running in wouldnt it makes sense to like njp to counter his pokes? Im sure theres more options than what your saying. Just a friendly player trying to help.

Nah there is obviously options, there is in any matchup, but shinnock holds his own up close and completely destroys jc in zoning battle. Jc can't use his tools as effectively as in other matches up close and far away its probably the worst he gets zoned.. Though im yet to play a good kitana

 

[Name v.5.0]

It's called conditioning. Not every thing in the game is meant to be free. His overhead is punishable overall so shinnok will go for a low more. Also from what I recall you love the mind games that stunt double brings it if you get in the shinnoks head you get a huge reward. Once you're in shinnok has a tough time on knockdown since his wakeups are quite punishable. If he tries to armor after you beat out his f4 once you can read it and get a 50% midscreen combo for 1 bar. The mu is all about conditioning and getting in by playing smartly and wisely. Being impatient will get you killed obviously but johnny does well when he's in. 7-3 is way too farfetched and imposter is easily 5-5. Also in terms ofthe f41 d2 or scoop. Most shinnoks will go for the d2 into gun. Scoop is super punishable and once again they'll eat 33%-50% if you block it. Plus I need further testing but that mixup might be fuzzyable from what I've tested so far.

Let me focus on Boneshaper because I feel we disagree more on that. I can see how with time, training and patience Imposter can turn into a 5-5 even if I dont believe it quite yet.

Johnny also cant wake up safely. Shinnok at least has the luxury of blocking a wakeup, or jumping if he reads nut punch wake up. If he reads delayed wakeup or wake up blocking, he at least has the luxury of a 50/50 even if one option is unsafe. HE can also condition ME. 2 way street.

SD Johnny's doesnt pressure as well against a character with a 6 frame D1. I dont see how he does well when he's in. SD Johnny has no mixups inside, so if the opponent understands how to block, Johnny has to win with D4, throw, and chip. I just dont understand how that = does well inside. Not to mention Bone Shaper is a fantastic zoning character.

I practiced long and hard on fuzzying that F4,1, D2/ F4,1,DF2...It can be blocked if you block low, then high on the second hit, then quickly tap down and then release it. The scoop comes out about 9 frames faster than the overhead. Hard to do in the heat of the match, especially with the threat of B3 starter.

We may have to agree to disagree, but I'll never see the Bonershaper/Stunt Double matchup as even, and have a hard time believing at the highest level anyone will do 4-6 or better.

 

[oNe87_Kentucky]

How is this anything but 6-4 or worse.

He has a 7 frame low and a 6 frame poke along with combo starting armour all of which gets you off him. He completely outzones the fuck of you and can barely get out clone. A list has little to no options.

He can literally use his low as a poking tool and u eat like 35% into a standing reset 50/50. Yeah the overhead is punishable but its very difficult.

His armour is punishable like pretty much all armour in this game, he can still punish SK Clone on read for full combo and sludge ball pretty much on reaction with it.

In no universe is this 5-5.

I must be missing some crucial matchup info or something. Nothing of what you've said has convinced me otherwise.

What is "sludge ball"?

 

[Asodimazze]

It is a bad matchup, Boneshaper is probably 3-7...Shinnok is better than Cage in everything

 

[Wigy]

What is "sludge ball"?

Green balls.

Old habit calling em that, don't bust my balls use some common sense

 

[CheapEddie]

The only place MU with BS is annoying is fullscreen bcz u cannot autofireball him like a retard. U have to get in while sometimes launching forceballs to have a trade and get some meter. Cage in A-list has a better midscreen: His d4 is taller than any of Shinnok pokes, because of that u can bait anything Shinnok will try to throw against u where ur d4 got blocked and whiffpunish it with F3. Upclose this is fucked for Shinnok: its very risky for him to armour in our pressure cause his scythe starts at 15frames, f3-cancel-12 will beat it everytime. Cage`s gameplan is not changed by a bit: throw the fucker to the corner and destroy him there.
When ur on defense against Bone Shaper after u block an amulet u have a guessing game: he can throw pokes which u can beat with d1 or d4 (depends from poke he will use), he can try f4, u can step it back and punish the followups. U can f3 him if he tries to backdash\step back to bait ur moves.
And dont forget about his ex-scythe.

Anyway, i think after Impostor`s nerf its probably 5-5 now against him, its 5-5 with BS too, imao.

 

[Asodimazze]

I also want to add that Boneshaper pressure not only is better than A List, it also doesn't require any execution. Is absolutely impossible to screw up anything with Shinnok, and in tournament this matters a lot.

He will probably get nerfed a bit, is way too powerful and braindead at the moment...20 minutes in practice is all that's needed

 

[gam224]

Shinnok sux. I'm picking up Kitana...

Get used to no 50/50s

 

[oNe87_Kentucky]

Green balls.

Old habit calling em that, don't bust my balls use some common sense

It was a legit question. No need to be a dick and tell me to use common sense. If common sense was being used then this thread wouldn't be a joke.

 

[Wigy]

It was a legit question. No need to be a dick and tell me to use common sense. If common sense was being used then this thread wouldn't be a joke.

I thought you were just asking to be pedantic. Duno what else u could think they were. This thread isn't a joke i was asking everybodies approach on this matchup that a lot of johnnys have issues with

 

[Wigy]

The only place MU with BS is annoying is fullscreen bcz u cannot autofireball him like a retard. U have to get in while sometimes launching forceballs to have a trade and get some meter. Cage in A-list has a better midscreen: His d4 is taller than any of Shinnok pokes, because of that u can bait anything Shinnok will try to throw against u where ur d4 got blocked and whiffpunish it with F3. Upclose this is fucked for Shinnok: its very risky for him to armour in our pressure cause his scythe starts at 15frames, f3-cancel-12 will beat it everytime. Cage`s gameplan is not changed by a bit: throw the fucker to the corner and destroy him there.
When ur on defense against Bone Shaper after u block an amulet u have a guessing game: he can throw pokes which u can beat with d1 or d4 (depends from poke he will use), he can try f4, u can step it back and punish the followups. U can f3 him if he tries to backdash\step back to bait ur moves.
And dont forget about his ex-scythe.

Anyway, i think after Impostor`s nerf its probably 5-5 now against him, its 5-5 with BS too, imao.

Any match footage.

No idea how this can be 5-5

He can poke out of jcs stuff better than most of the cast, and is better at zoning and if he has a bar u basically just can't play proper footsies cause those hellsparks

 

[CheapEddie]

@Wigy Hellsparks+blast is a threat only when he throws it at you at close range, his ex-scythe is a much more of a threat in neutral. In both ways u just need to bait it, thats all. If u have a bar, u punish Every Shinnok`s attempt of Hellsparks, blast wont help him, if he doesnt have any meter and still had enough bravery to do it while on midscreen, run and punish him (run f3-dash cancel-113-np). I dunno about poking out of Cage`s pressure, u definitely drop things if Shinnoks do it consistently. After F3(4)-rc, b3,4-scrk,1,2(1)-rc u have guaranteed f2, the only thing that stops it is armored reversal.

 

[Red Reaper]

Get used to no 50/50s

B2 yo...