What is Net-Code and how can we help fix it?

[Skkra]

The long and short of it is:

1) Nothing, no matter what, will change for MKX. This game is baked, it's shipped, and they are 100% not going to rip the guts out of the engine and recode it. That would be a herculean effort that would require regression testing everything. It's not happening. The best we can do is make our voices heard for the next game.

2) It doesn't matter what the core issue is - it is NOT our problem. Clearly every other dev, 2D and 3D, has proven that they can make great netcode. The only way to make our voices heard is to stop buying the products. If a company makes a product and no one buys it because we know it is of inferior quality, that sends a very, very clear message.


That's pretty much it. No one should be making any excuses for NRS/WB whatsoever. I do high performance database tuning for a living... if I can't get these systems flying, do you think the company would say "aww, we know how hard it is. well, we'll just make sure we're hardwired and make the best of it!" No. I'd be fucking fired because I cannot deliver. They'd bring in someone who could do the job.

This is exactly why I refuse to waste another second of my valuable and limited playtime on MKX online. Why, when I have BlazBlue, Skullgirls, Tekken and Killer Instinct? I've fired NRS in that respect. I only play the game offline when drinking with friends now. Which is a real goddamn shame, because they've lost an evangelist for their product.

 

[trufenix]

What is your goal with constantly trying to dispute with people who have something negative to say? I get calling out some of the crazy things I've seen on this thread but you seem to be going after anything that shows disappointment with MKx.

Persistent negative shitposters (like mercure, zeph, grizzly, etc) get ignored so they can belly ache and pity party all they want. Others make flawed (but legitimate) statements / questions to which I respond. Free country, and all that. How explaining why MKX can never have GGPO is classified as constantly disputing, I can't say.

 

[trufenix]

Yep... thousands of unsatisfied customers, inside and outside of TYM, are making "insane insinuations" about their dissatisfaction with this product.

First; Where are you getting these numbers? Do you know a thousand people who bought the game? Do you even know one thousand people!?
Second: The insane insinuation is that instead of merely wanting to reach out to his customers (satisfied or not), Ed Boon went on Kombat Kast 11 to lie and do damage control for his corporate masters.

Think of this like the ol' Jackass theory:
If one person calls you a jackass, well that's fine, that's their opinion.
If a thousand people call you a jackass... then you might consider getting yourself a saddle.

What do you consider getting when a couple million call you a successful game designer?

Or better yet; What do you consider getting when you buy a game to play online without bothering to find out if its netplay even works?

 

[buyacushun]

Persistent negative shitposters (like mercure, zeph, grizzly, etc) get ignored so they can belly ache and pity party all they want. Others make flawed (but legitimate) statements / questions to which I respond. Free country, and all that. How explaining why MKX can never have GGPO is classified as constantly disputing, I can't say.

You do more than explain why GGPO can't be a part of MKx. Like asking where @Marbledecker got his numbers from. In cases like these I wouldn't be so much worried about the number but the point which is lots of people are not satisfied with MKx. Ed boon didn't reach out to anyone. He went on Kombat Kast to issue a statement. Instead of explaining anything (which he may or may not be able to do), he just says that it's going to be improved. No mention of how or anything. Just a "we're working on it" back in May . . .

I don't remember which Kast it was where they were saying that even between coworkers they went wired and it was perfect/fine/whatever they said to imply that's all that needs to be done isn't helping much. There are plenty of users who go wired and it still doesn't work right yet they'll play plenty of different games and it will work fine. It's July now and we can't even get an update on the netcode that they're apparently "slaving" over. But Ed Boon can sure hint at more DLC to buy. Which to me is the biggest problem. The fact that there is a problem and instead of communicating anything, it gets brushed to the side while they talk about anything and everything else. At least this time whoever is working on the PC port took extra time to make sure releasing Tremor didn't break anything. That's the first sign of improvement I've seen out of this whole thing.

 

[Marbledecker]

First; Where are you getting these numbers? Do you know a thousand people who bought the game? Do you even know one thousand people!?

Do I need to know 1,000 people personally to notice a massive public outcry of dissatisfaction? Nope.

Second: The insane insinuation is that instead of merely wanting to reach out to his customers (satisfied or not), Ed Boon went on Kombat Kast 11 to lie and do damage control for his corporate masters.

Gotcha, I misunderstood that portion of your post.

What do you consider getting when a couple million call you a successful game designer?

Success =/= quality. The fact that they're rolling in cash doesn't make their online experience good. By this measure, Ke$ha is a better musician than Guthrie Govan.

Or better yet; What do you consider getting when you buy a game to play online without bothering to find out if its netplay even works?

A lesson learned: never pre-order again. That's what *I* got, anyway...

 

[Skkra]

A lesson learned: never pre-order again. That's what *I* got, anyway...

For future NRS games, you nailed it 100%. I will not buy another one until testing the netcode somewhere else.

Other developers though? No problem. For instance, after how much enjoyment I've gotten out of SF4 over the last 6 years, and how good Capcom has been about the game, I preordered SFV so fast that it almost tore my hands off.

 

[KrazyJester252]

it might be too late for a netcode upgrade.
We might as well beg sonicfox to donate $50k to NRS to fix it

 

[DownfouralitY]

it might be too late for a netcode upgrade.
We might as well beg sonicfox to donate $50k to NRS to fix it

lol $50k is chump change to NRS. This is the best selling MK to date, they're rolling in cash and they don't give a fuck that the netcode is utter garbage. They have 0 incentive to fix it, and i'm pretty sure they're not going to for the next game either. Even if we got some petition or chant going at a tournament it wouldn't affect them in the slightest, they would just ignore it like they do with every other complaint. Xbox One users can barely even connect to the fucking servers, and the people at NRS are just now learning about this bug. The netcode will never change unless they start prioritizing the online mode over everything else which will never happen.

 

[mercureXI]

What do you consider getting when you buy a game to play online without bothering to find out if its netplay even works

----

And you dare talk about shitposters Go ahead and ignore me, you don't have anything to answer when it involves logic ...

----

Well, it seems we -only- have to do that, with NRS games nowadays. I can safely buy almost any online game in 2015, it will work as intended.


People believed Ed Boon that tried to "reach out to his customers" when he said that "Mortal Kombat X Has Much Better Netcode Than MK9".

Hell, this might be some "insane insinuation that instead of merely wanting to reach out to his customers", Ed Boon lied ... again !

He had people's trust. You blame people for believing the guy (his very words during an interview) ? And pre-ordering the game without waiting for online tests ?


Yet, you -also- blame people when they insinuate that he might be lying on a Kombat Kast.


What is it really ? Trust him or not ?

Gotta choose mate ... can't blame people for everything and defend NRS from everything too.

 

[WidowPuppy]

Does not matter if over 2,000 unsatisfied customers choose not to buy any future MK or NRS game when your marketing is so powerful and your game is an icon franchise that will gain 10 times maybe more than the amount of dissatisfied customers lost.

And that's sad, because it seems to be WB's strategy.

I myself who have never been able to enjoy any NRS game online am not going to spite myself by not purchasing the next title and missing out on my fun in the lab [oh brother], or offline.

If a couple THOUSAND even, decide not to purchase the game due to them being upset at previous titles launched by WB/NRS. Not gonna matter in the slightest. If you think about it... How would they even know with the numbers consistently rising with each title.

There is only one way to influence WB to refrain from their current strategy, and it it to use there own method against them. They provide the flashiest looking, nothing but positive trailers/hype/reviews to the masses.

Someone with an audience [IGN for example] needs to do the opposite. But, that is not going to happen. Not gonna make any "INSANE INSINUATIONS" as to why.

 

[Skkra]

They have 0 incentive to fix it, and i'm pretty sure they're not going to for the next game either

If they recycle this engine in its current state, then you're right, the netplay will again be joke-level. And this'll be in ~2017 at least. If its possible, it'll seem even worse in comparison to the games that will be out by that time haha.

 

[buyacushun]

If they recycle this engine in its current state, then you're right, the netplay will again be joke-level. And this'll be in ~2017 at least. If its possible, it'll seem even worse in comparison to the games that will be out by that time haha.

If online sucks for Injustice 2 and the community isn't in uproar, ESPECIALLY the players of "influence" I might be done with this "community". I can get past accepting character changing patches month 1 but not literally having the worst something in a genre. For consecutive releases and it's probably the single most important thing to keep people playing. TYM probably has to worry the most about gaining numbers in the FGC and probably the worst, yet best chances at it. I don't get how people are still accepting anything sub par anywhere.

 

[Evil Canadian]

impeach netcode

 

[mercureXI]

If online sucks for Injustice 2 and the community isn't in uproar, ESPECIALLY the players of "influence" I might be done with this "community". I can get past accepting character changing patches month 1 but not literally having the worst something in a genre. For consecutive releases and it's probably the single most important thing to keep people playing. TYM probably has to worry the most about gaining numbers in the FGC and probably the worst, yet best chances at it. I don't get how people are still accepting anything sub par anywhere.

3 games and still no uproar. Not sure 4 is the magic number.

Just release nice trailers, add some random song by System of a Down, hint at some horror movie DLCs ... and there you have it !

Another game that will sell well, no matter the netcode's efficiency ...

 

[trufenix]

Do I need to know 1,000 people personally to notice a massive public outcry of dissatisfaction? Nope.

Show me. I'm still waiting to see it.

You wanna know what massive public outcry I did see? Fucked PC players. And they rose up like the Kraken and tore HVS the fuck down. Your outcry bought the game, played the fuck out of it, and then called boon a liar for saying a lot of people are enjoying the game.

Success =/= quality. The fact that they're rolling in cash doesn't make their online experience good. By this measure, Ke$ha is a better musician than Guthrie Govan.

I don't. . . what? MKX is more than just netplay. Metaphors aren't your strong suit.

A lesson learned: never pre-order again. That's what *I* got, anyway...

I don't know why this is such an insane gap of logic for gamers. Do you really think Amazon and Gamestop have your best interests in mind?

 

[Iced_Taz]

I have an idea. Just find offline partners.....oh wait

 

[Marbledecker]

Show me. I'm still waiting to see it.

I'm sure you're more than capable of finding customer dissatisfaction with Netkode on your own, you just choose not to observe it.

I don't. . . what? MKX is more than just netplay. Metaphors aren't your strong suit.

You're drifting off of the thread topic. This is about online. I made absolutely no mention of offline play at any point.

I still enjoy playing this game offline with friends, but I reserve the right to be dissatisfied with the online aspect of the product, and I also reserve the right to express my dissatisfaction.

I don't know why this is such an insane gap of logic for gamers. Do you really think Amazon and Gamestop have your best interests in mind?

For perspective's sake, I'm new around here. I wasn't around to see any of the MK9/IGAU netcode shenanigans. I hadn't really messed with an MK title since UMK3 in the arcades.

I had assumed, from what I heard in the Kombat Kasts about Factions and other aspects of multiplayer, that they would have placed some emphasis on developing a fully functional online environment. Being primarily a KI player, and having regular access to great online play, bad netcode hadn't ever crossed my mind. The game looked good, so I pre-ordered.

Like I said, lesson learned. I now understand the "logic": I'll just assume everything NRS says about online performance during the marketing phase to be a distortion at best, and I certainly won't pre-order another of their titles.

 

[Iced_Taz]

One thing for sure: MK X ONLINE IS A DIFFERENT GAME THAN MKX OFFLINE

 

[tigerija]

People need to get educated about this "netcode" and stop talking nonsense. I am under impression people think "netcode" is like a spare part that can be replaced.
@Skkra is stating some good realistic points here.

It can not be reworked once you make your game. Whole gameplay is based of it. You would need to remake whole game.
It is easier to make new game then. So it will never improve because its impossible.
It can be just slightly optimized.

People should keep whining about MKX netcode because this was case for MK9 and MKX. But you should not be delusional and think MKX online connection quality will improve.

Keep this problem alive, and research before you buy!

I never played MKX online. I never will. Tried it once with MK9 and it was crap. With people from my country. Town, nearby.
I pretty much assumed it will be similar case with MKX from their PR talk. You have to be stupid not be to able to understand how video games PR work today.

I do enjoy my MKX locally with friends. So it does not affect me. And I am not used to play fighting games online. But hopefully they fix it for their next game. Or they even decide to rework this one.

I heard Path of Exile did something similar. It has some desync issues online. But now people say its fixed.
Anyway, chances for MKX online to be "fixed" is 2% imo.

 

[WidowPuppy]

People need to get educated about this "netcode" and stop talking nonsense. I am under impression people think "netcode" is like a spare part that can be replaced.
@Skkra is stating some good realistic points here.

It can not be reworked once you make your game.

Not true.

It can be just slightly optimized.

Okay, do that then.



Also...

In my opinion, it's not even the "netcode" that's causing the majority of the input lag issues.

 

[trufenix]

I'm sure you're more than capable of finding customer dissatisfaction with Netkode on your own, you just choose not to observe it.

I never said disatisfied customers didn't exist, but i can find a "massive outcry of dissatisfied customers" for anything on the internet.

I asked how many people are ACTUALLY fucked by unplayable online (Xbone bug or otherwise)? You say thousands. Did they all log trouble tickets with MS/WB? Post reviews on Amazon? Comment on facebook? How bout even trending a hashtag? What has your outcry done to help?

I still enjoy playing this game offline with friends, but I reserve the right to be dissatisfied with the online aspect of the product, and I also reserve the right to express my dissatisfaction.

I'm not here to rob you of your dissatisfaction. I have my qualms with the game too, but I temper my beef with the tools afforded to me as a consumer, not call a man a liar and a thief and call for internet pitchforks about something for which I did no pre-emptive research. This thread was on a good path before it turned into the latest netcode dogpile. Y'all stop acting like anyone who isn't having the worst of times with MKX online is a corporate shill, we might get somewhere.

 

[trufenix]

You do more than explain why GGPO can't be a part of MKx. Like asking where @Marbledecker got his numbers from. In cases like these I wouldn't be so much worried about the number but the point which is lots of people are not satisfied with MKx.

Why is it okay to say a thousand people are unhappy but not to ask if those thousand people are even real?

Ed boon didn't reach out to anyone. He went on Kombat Kast to issue a statement. Instead of explaining anything (which he may or may not be able to do), he just says that it's going to be improved. No mention of how or anything. Just a "we're working on it" back in May . . .

I asked pages ago just what Ed Boon is supposed to say and no one replied, just turned on me for asking. 10 really defensive really judgy replies later, still no word on what you actually want him to say.

I don't remember which Kast it was where they were saying that even between coworkers they went wired and it was perfect/fine/whatever they said to imply that's all that needs to be done isn't helping much. There are plenty of users who go wired and it still doesn't work right yet they'll play plenty of different games and it will work fine. It's July now and we can't even get an update on the netcode that they're apparently "slaving" over.

I'm not sure what you think they're going to fix in months of debug that they didn't fix in years of dev. are you a network engineer?

But Ed Boon can sure hint at more DLC to buy. Which to me is the biggest problem. The fact that there is a problem and instead of communicating anything, it gets brushed to the side while they talk about anything and everything else.

So DLC advertisement and sales should stop because the online play doesn't work 100%? Does that make sense to you?

At least this time whoever is working on the PC port took extra time to make sure releasing Tremor didn't break anything. That's the first sign of improvement I've seen out of this whole thing.

Completely unrelated. The major netplay problem is Xbone only. The other netplay problem has existed since the dawn of time. The PC version has an entirely different set of problems. NRS doesn't even work on the PC version.

 

[WidowPuppy]

I asked pages ago just what Ed Boon is supposed to say and no one replied, just turned on me for asking. 10 really defensive really judgy replies later, still no word on what you actually want him to say.

He actually already said exactly what I wanted him to say. Too bad it was not true. And I know, he's not a Liar... Just says things without actually doing them.

As far as the where do you get thousands of people complaining from... Just google MKX netcode, or MKX online, or watch any streamer play for more than 20 minutes without mentioning lag in some way shape or form.

The fact that 13 out of the 15 people I know dropped the game due to Online's playability. Easy to make educated guesses off of percentages without needing indisputable evidence.

There are actually several Top players that from TYM who stream, that I watch. They constantly complain about the lag, but... Will not voice their opinion on the matter in this or any "netcode" thread because it's not "cool".

Them being notable and voicing their opinions would probably help more than several other unknown players doing the exact same thing but... Oh well.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Not true.



Okay, do that then.



Also...

In my opinion, it's not even the "netcode" that's causing the majority of the input lag issues.

i always respect your posts, but i have to ask, what is it that you think it is?
since its a Peer 2 Peer game, and the nodes are the servers, since in a cycle we only request data at a small rate, what other than the netcode could cause this 4 second lag.. other than the Layer between the Host and the Client which is the Netcode?

i am genuinely curious to here your reply.

 

[buyacushun]

Why is it okay to say a thousand people are unhappy but not to ask if those thousand people are even real?



I asked pages ago just what Ed Boon is supposed to say and no one replied, just turned on me for asking. 10 really defensive really judgy replies later, still no word on what you actually want him to say.



I'm not sure what you think they're going to fix in months of debug that they didn't fix in years of dev. are you a network engineer?



So DLC advertisement and sales should stop because the online play doesn't work 100%? Does that make sense to you?



Completely unrelated. The major netplay problem is Xbone only. The other netplay problem has existed since the dawn of time. The PC version has an entirely different set of problems. NRS doesn't even work on the PC version.

It's ok to ask about the numbers. My point is still that the people on TYM can't be the only ones dissapointed with the online functionality. There is most likely a bunch of people not happy with online.

I explained what I would like to be said.

I don't need to be a network engineer to want a status update. It could very well be "This is taking longer than we thought.", "Whatever complicated problems.", anything really. Besides a one time statement of "we're working on it." After it was released and while they market DLC.

Never said any advertisement should stop. But any other useful and relevant communication has stopped. Nothing is ever said on anyone's problems with netcode. When OSes were a hot topic there was no statement on them. I don't know what happened with the issue of input shortcuts but that probably got regulated to "deal with it" that the TYM community is so accustomed to. Unless it's patches, which just get dropped with no warning. Only thing we get on that is a cryptic Ed Boon tweet and that's only when there is a very noticeable problem that might have a negative effect on the perception of the game.

My point about pointing out PC was that out of all the problems, it's the first time I've seen an improvement in how things are handled. The one thing they did wrong was wait until mid day of the release date to say it will be coming out later. If something unexpected came up then that should be said.