What is Net-Code and how can we help fix it?

[WidowPuppy]

@trufenix

WidowPuppy :What was twisted and turned? I'm curious.

Trufenix: You said: Ed boon [Was lying about everything he could think of] But specifically said...

Didn't realize you wanted me to quote him directly and be more specific, my apologies.

"You guys paid good money for this game, and you deserve to have a good online experience" Ed Boon... Kombat Kast 11.

"A lot of people are playing on wireless" Ed Boon... Kombat Kast 11.

"We are slaving to try to get this as good playing as possible, there's no way we consider ourselves content as far as the online experience" Ed Boon... Kombat Kast 11.

"Once we went hard lined, it was LITERALLY PERFECT" Derek Kirtzic... Kombat Kast 11.


So you're saying that they are "Slaving"?

 

[Alien Substance]

Spoiler: Off-topic

lol thank you, your a fan of DeathNote? i loved that series. i hated how *the kid replaced him. no one could replace L Lawliet

*Near.
They should've let him keep his all-white pajamas like in the manga, and not have given him blue pants to emphasize that he is like L. No one can replace Mr. Lawliet. He is the husbando of many fangirls.

I think Near would've benefited from showing more differences from L; such as a more expressed and observed closeness to Mello, to contrast L's seeming hesitation with showing personal feelings beyond words towards someone.
I'd have liked to see Near walk at some point in the anime as well -- he is never shown walking. I think a scene of him just walking would've helped to make him seem more "human".

I think it's only fair to distribute some of this responsibility to Warner Bros. NRS may be pushing the buttons, but WB gets to tell them which buttons to push and how. Why?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Quite true.

I wish I could like this ten thousand times.

I've said this in multiple threads, but Skullgirls is probably the #1 implementation of great fighting game netcode that I've seen. I play MKX with my friend across town and it's so laggy that it's not even fun. I play Skullgirls with my friend across the country (Philly to LA) and it's like we're sitting in the same frigging room.

Killer Instinct and Tekken Tag 2 have similarly awesome netcode. SF4 is now 6 years old and the netcode is still way better than MK9/Injustice/MKX. I honestly don't give a shit what the issue is at this point. Scale your servers, learn to write real netcode, etc etc. It's 2015. This level of netplay is straight up unacceptable.

TL;DR
The performance of MKX online is literally worse than playing Doom over a 14.4 modem in middle school. Sadly, all I can do is stop buying characters, costumes, and really any NRS product going forward. Which sucks, because I love MKX, and would like to keep getting those things. But the only thing a company understands is a bottom line, so if I want to make my voice heard, all I can do is vote with my wallet.

"how can we help fix it ?"

Is this a FUCKING JOKE ?

WB has more than enough money to solve that crap.

They could have done a beta test before launching that pile of garbage too.

They just rushed the game out (and MEGA OVER GIGA rushed the PC port), so that they could be getting all the money while SFV is still being developped (yeah these guys WILL do a beta test, they seem to care about QUALITY ... shocker !).

We don't need to HELP fix it ...

What we need to do ... is stop buying Tremor shit and NRS products as long as MKX online isn't fixed.

Meaning no Injustice 2, nothing else.

Either they step up and fix a product that we already give them money for, or no need to advertise any more of the same crap : we don't care, we won't pay anymore ... it's been more than 3 games now ... stop the BS guys ! ! ! ! !

THIS
ENDS
HERE

It really is that easy. I've said the same thing many times. I'm done buying NRS games. If the online is garbage next time I will simply not buy it.

Everybody should follow suit if they want any changes made, but it won't happen, especially with the casual players, which is the majority of their fan base.

I'm still here because the MK community is, overall, great; and because I've grown up with MK in arcades, once you love MK, you can't go back. But damn, about time we gather together and just decide to shame NRS as a group at every damn event they decide to advertise their shitty DLCs. These guys will fuck up Injustice 2 too at this rate, and any other game after that.

Fans are the only ones to blame for letting NRS get away with so many failed games when it comes to online. 2015 standards are not "oh hurray, I can punish something that's -15 ... oh wait not quite yet ... but -everything is awesome !-" Being positive and trying to help them : we are way past that. MK9 petition proved they don't care about us being polite and constructive. What they need : a community, as a whole, shaming them every time they show up their lying asses.

That and not buying anything NRS related as long as they let this shit go on.

NRS is a division of a larger whole. Voting on NRS with your wallet won't do good if your money still goes to their masters.

See the quotation below:

You're correct, it's not just fashion, and that's how they try to get you to spend $30.00 Season Passes. Again, the only way to combat something that's priced poorly is to not buy it or wait for a sale. If you can't wait and need to have it now, then you're getting screwed price-wise, but it's your choice of course. I choose not to buy.

And again, it's not just NRS games, it's WBIE games. So no more Batman: Arkham or whatever else WB makes. It's the publisher here that needs to see losses, not the developer who is owned by the same publisher.

For me, I'm enjoying Mortal Kombat X enough that I likely will purchase the next game in the series provided I like how it looks, but I might not do so at launch or only if I can get it on sale (I got 25% off with GMG for pre-purchasing Mortal Kombat X, which was a solid price this time around).

Spoiler: Another quotation that may be of relevance:

@RM_NINfan101 said:

... I was talking to SpabRog on Twitter and as much as he loves MKX, he hates how frequent the hotfixes and patches are becoming and when talked about netcode, he agreed with me that netcode is extremely important for a game's survival.

It's not even a matter of how many players go to your scenes. How do you get more players and keep your large numbers up as a game ages or gets less interesting to newcomers? The online has to be good. Tutorials and all that stuff. I don't wanna hear the whole "Well NRS is tryi--" No. Stop. Stop and think for one second.

They had issues in MK9 and IGAU with netcode. With the fact that they had to outsource the game via WBGames (who's more to blame with your PC port because they didn't want NRS working on it or the last gen versions, just THESE two ones.) this should of actually been easier. Why is it that Xbox One users are still having issues playing? PSN has matches that have such variable frame delay I cannot tell if that connection is one I wanna play in, yet forced because the game read it as a Green bar and not a yellow...

Why not outsource the netcode too? It's time for answers, as a consumer, if I want to buy your products in the future, am I not owed the right to know why UE3 cannot run rollback netcode? If not, why not use UE4? You cannot tell me they had to use UE3 because they were "licensed" to. Pretty sure they could've upgraded to UE4 if they wanted, they just knew it wouldn't work for last gen... Speaking of last gen, where is it? Some people I knew held off on buying a new console because they could play their game on it. Why the lack of info?

And I'm gonna be dead honest: WB Games might of been the WORST spot for MK to fall to. Yes, you got your precious MK9... But many fail to see the brand that is Mortal Kombat. I feel there has been less focus on the games, and more focus elsewhere such as the Legacy series and comics than giving the developers time to make their fucking game work amazing.

A good example? The PC Port of Arkham Knight just got pulled from Steam due to how shitty of a port it is.

WB Games doesn't care about you, your community on TYM or how long fans have waited for a legit MK. I'll tell you simply what they see much as what I have seen with the whack microtransactions, terrible alt costumes from NRS, and just how rushed this game feels at times with how it came out.

I say this on behalf of WBGames and not NRS because, it could of been NRS's full ambition to give you the best game possible, but WBGames? They don't care. They're just another reason why I fucking hate modern day publishers.

$$$

You can disagree and that's fine or claim that I'm "looking" into too much, but am I really guys?

I think something ultimately needs to change.

 

[EnergyKD]

I feel like they are making it seem as if it was too difficult to do before, it would of been 100% easy to do and launch with ggpo netcode. Now i feel like its still possible even after launch lets not forget how "backward compatibility" was impossible yet Xbone has it now.

 

[Tony at Home]

This statement is misinformed on a number of levels.

1. A 3D point is simply an extra coordinate. [x, y] becomes [x, y, z].

But the it's not just one extra coordinate on a single hitbox. You have to multiply the amount of hitbox. In Ki, there's a hitbox for the body, and there's a hitbox for the head.

In MKX, there's a hitbox for each individual limb. You are NOOOOOOT just adding an extra coordinate on to one extra hitbox, because you're adding ENTIRE EXTRA hitboxes.

It's more like
{[x,y].[x,y]} becomes {[x,y,z].[x,y,z],[x,y,z].[x,y,z],[x,y,z].[x,y,z]}


Also, I don't think you understand how huge an increase an extra coordinate is to transfer at the rate it's been transferred. When were are talking things as simple as websockets, packet size is a pretty huge thing.

Someone who knows logic, nice.

The excuses people will try to come up with is beyond fathomable.

I write code for a living, and I've had to write a significantly large amount of real-time updating code over the web. His argument is actually 100% false. I don't know what else to tell people other than this is what I do, do not tell me how I do this. See the above post.

 

[WidowPuppy]

But the it's not just one extra coordinate on a single hitbox. You have to multiply the amount of hitbox. In Ki, there's a hitbox for the body, and there's a hitbox for the head.

In MKX, there's a hitbox for each individual limb. You are NOOOOOOT just adding an extra coordinate on to one extra hitbox, because you're adding ENTIRE EXTRA hitboxes.

It's more like
{[x,y].[x,y]} becomes {[x,y,z].[x,y,z],[x,y,z].[x,y,z],[x,y,z].[x,y,z]}


Also, I don't think you understand how huge an increase an extra coordinate is to transfer at the rate it's been transferred. When were are talking things as simple as websockets, packet size is a pretty huge thing.



I write code for a living, and I've had to write significantly large amount of real-time updating code over the web. His argument is actually 100% false. I don't know what else to tell people other than this is what I do, do not tell me how I do this. See the above post.

Not questioning your programming skills Tony, and wasn't referring to you with my statement even though Bill was responding to you. I've programmed plenty of logic myself specifically on 2 dimensional planes with 3d models similar to MK. Level design for platformers mostly but, Spent more time optimizing once the architecture was finished than with the actual stages.

I can see there is quite a lot of things going on in several stages and character models, with animations, lighting, particle effects, etc... and aside from the fact that some of these things should have been toned down for performance quality over visual quality [Like TTT2 having certain stages Online missing things from offline]

I don't even believe this is the problem that most people who are experiencing MKX online at it's worst are encountering. Mainly think... and this is not my field so I don't know the specifics, but... Possibly the distance to some central hub/server for certain users who can actually play 90% of their matches with a semi decent connection VS the many who cannot even experience MKX online at it's best, ever.

No server restarts or maintenance ever. Faction Stats being calculated by millions of people playing offline while connected to online. Just a bunch of things that could be done to at least bring everyone up to the same crappy experience at it's best 3 frames of input delay or whatever it is that people who can actually function online experience.

As for now... People are being matched against other people while one has an advantage of LESS input delay... In a fighting game. And there are LeaderBoards and win loss records lol, It's sad.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Spoiler: Off-topic

*Near.
They should've let him keep his all-white pajamas like in the manga, and not have given him blue pants to emphasize that he is like L. No one can replace Mr. Lawliet. He is the husbando of many fangirls.

I think Near would've benefited from showing more differences from L; such as a more expressed and observed closeness to Mello, to contrast L's seeming hesitation with showing personal feelings beyond words towards someone.
I'd have liked to see Near walk at some point in the anime as well -- he is never shown walking. I think a scene of him just walking would've helped to make him seem more "human".

[/spoiler]

I hated the loss of L so naturally i despise that it was left to a split decision to replace L with N which obviously couldn't be done... L had him, but wanted a friend, who could blame him for overlooking.
yes i agree Near should have been different and should have walked more, and should have not set in the same position as L rather a different position that Near thought helped his though process.

L was great how he was, stationary and solitary!

did you see the movie, i thought they hit L pretty well, they had to get some special weirdo to do that part. it was great, i still prefer the series and manga over the flik

 

[Tony at Home]

Not questioning your programming skills Tony, and wasn't referring to you with my statement even though Bill was responding to you. I've programmed plenty of logic myself specifically on 2 dimensional planes with 3d models similar to MK. Level design for platformers mostly but, Spent more time optimizing once the architecture was finished than with the actual stages.

I can see there is quite a lot of things going on in several stages and character models, with animations, lighting particle effects, etc... and aside from the fact that some of these things should have been toned down for performance quality over visual quality [Like TTT2 having certain stages Online missing things from offline]

I don't even believe this is the problem that most people who are experiencing MKX online at it's worst are encountering. Mainly think... and this is not my field so I don't know the specifics, but... Possibly the distance to some central hub/server for certain users who can actually play 90% of their matches with a semi decent connection VS the many who cannot even experience MKX online at it's best, ever.

No server restarts or maintenance ever. Faction Stats being calculated by millions of people playing offline while connected to online. Just a bunch of things that could be done to at least bring everyone up to the same crappy experience at it's best 3 frames of input delay or whatever it is that people who can actually function online experience.

As for now... People are being matched against other people while one has an advantage of LESS input delay... In a fighting game. And there are LeaderBoards and win loss records lol, It's sad.

I get what you mean, sorry if I seemed angry in my response.

I just don't think it's in the cards for NRS to improve the netcode post-release given how these systems work under the hood. Especially with things like GGPO, which really need to be implemented from the ground up in games and can't really be "tacked on"

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Not questioning your programming skills Tony, and wasn't referring to you with my statement even though Bill was responding to you. I've programmed plenty of logic myself specifically on 2 dimensional planes with 3d models similar to MK. Level design for platformers mostly but, Spent more time optimizing once the architecture was finished than with the actual stages.

I can see there is quite a lot of things going on in several stages and character models, with animations, lighting, particle effects, etc... and aside from the fact that some of these things should have been toned down for performance quality over visual quality [Like TTT2 having certain stages Online missing things from offline]

I don't even believe this is the problem that most people who are experiencing MKX online at it's worst are encountering. Mainly think... and this is not my field so I don't know the specifics, but... Possibly the distance to some central hub/server for certain users who can actually play 90% of their matches with a semi decent connection VS the many who cannot even experience MKX online at it's best, ever.

No server restarts or maintenance ever. Faction Stats being calculated by millions of people playing offline while connected to online. Just a bunch of things that could be done to at least bring everyone up to the same crappy experience at it's best 3 frames of input delay or whatever it is that people who can actually function online experience.

As for now... People are being matched against other people while one has an advantage of LESS input delay... In a fighting game. And there are LeaderBoards and win loss records lol, It's sad.

im sure faction stats is a problem, and should be looked into, but we need a beta to monitor

 

[MadeOfMetal]

I get what you mean, sorry if I seemed angry in my response.

I just don't think it's in the cards for NRS to improve the netcode post-release given how these systems work under the hood. Especially with things like GGPO, which really need to be implemented from the ground up in games and can't really be "tacked on"

imo if they want a few more million they will put in the effort, its not a matter if it can be done but rather time spent to fix said problem... its a small step backwards and a giant leap forwards.

 

[trufenix]

So you're saying that they are "Slaving"?

Can you back up any of your claims with anything more substantial than "I'm still not happy with the product" or "I read an unsubstantiated rumor to the contrary"?

 

[BillStickers]

But the it's not just one extra coordinate on a single hitbox. You have to multiply the amount of hitbox. In Ki, there's a hitbox for the body, and there's a hitbox for the head.

In MKX, there's a hitbox for each individual limb. You are NOOOOOOT just adding an extra coordinate on to one extra hitbox, because you're adding ENTIRE EXTRA hitboxes.

It's more like
{[x,y].[x,y]} becomes {[x,y,z].[x,y,z],[x,y,z].[x,y,z],[x,y,z].[x,y,z]}


Also, I don't think you understand how huge an increase an extra coordinate is to transfer at the rate it's been transferred. When were are talking things as simple as websockets, packet size is a pretty huge thing.



I write code for a living, and I've had to write a significantly large amount of real-time updating code over the web. His argument is actually 100% false. I don't know what else to tell people other than this is what I do, do not tell me how I do this. See the above post.

Again, more misinformation. You do not transfer coordinates in p2p netcode; you transfer inputs along with what NRS calls "KombatHeartbeat" information, namely tick number, health information, game timer, etc.

You're correct that NRS has much more complex model information for determining hit boxes, but you ignored my suggestion that this complexity could be flattened to another layer and simplified. Even still, because this information is not transferred over the wire in most cases, it's not a big deal.

I also write code for a living, have poked around the MKX code base, and have done a bit of packet analysis on the NRS netcode. I respect your opinion, but I'm also not talking shit.

 

[mercureXI]

NRS is a division of a larger whole. Voting on NRS with your wallet won't do good if your money still goes to their masters.

Don't worry my money will go to Capcom soon enough. At least, when shit is on fire, they try and do something about it (see SFxT online pbs etc).

Sad that MKX will be another game that will collect dust next to MK9 and Injustice as soon as the few people that I play offline will decide to jump ship.

Having offline versus and training mode as only way to "play" that game, is a sure way to force people to jump ship.

We're not on SNES playing MK2 anymore. Might be time to fucking "Wake up" NRS !

2015 and a netcode that spells "incompetence" ... got to admit it takes HUGE balls to promote things like ESL with that crap though.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

@trufenix

"A lot of people are playing on wireless" Ed Boon... Kombat Kast 11.
"Once we went hard lined, it was LITERALLY PERFECT" Derek Kirtzic... Kombat Kast 11.

I remember this cast... lol... who cares if they play wireless, i can't even count how many games i have played lagless on wifi.

Dkirtzic is a joke! who couldnt get perfect connection from within NRS it just says something that they had problems on wifi inside NRS

@trufenix

"We are slaving to try to get this as good playing as possible, there's no way we consider ourselves content as far as the online experience" Ed Boon... Kombat Kast 11.

they better be. and should probably try to out source.

@trufenix


"You guys paid good money for this game, and you deserve to have a good online experience" Ed Boon... Kombat Kast 11.

damn stright!

 

[WidowPuppy]

I get what you mean, sorry if I seemed angry in my response.

I just don't think it's in the cards for NRS to improve the netcode post-release given how these systems work under the hood. Especially with things like GGPO, which really need to be implemented from the ground up in games and can't really be "tacked on"

Ha, I didn't get an angry vibe. And my statement was leaned more in the direction of people who blame their opponents connection or users in general's internet quality. Sure this plays some minimal part. But when two people unkowingly a few miles away from each other, both with great internet are playing each other and are grumbling to themselves or out loud or on stream "This guys fucking connection is ass", It's kinda funny.

And I agree that it's not in their best interest to improve anything after the initial release/success [Even though it is one hundred percent achievable with their resources]. Actually believe there is some planned obsolescence here as well.

Can you back up any of your claims with anything more substantial than "I'm still not happy with the product" or "I read an unsubstantiated rumor to the contrary"?

Not sure what you even mean Tru. BTW... I'm on your side, and the side of several other people experiencing this at a more severe level than some. If it's fine for you... Play on, enjoy. I'm jealous...

And still don't know what you mean about a rumor? These are statements made on video during Kombat Kast 11 while being forced by WB to address the netcode in order to provide a false sense of hope for current buyers to purchase future DLC and future purchasers of MKX.

 

[trufenix]

Not sure what you even mean Tru. BTW... I'm on your side, and the side of several other people experiencing this at a more severe level than some. If it's fine for you... Play on, enjoy. I'm jealous...

This has nothing to do with sides or the state of the game. It has to do with developer public outreach being used as a weapon to attack their credibility.

And still don't know what you mean about a rumor? These are statements made on video during Kombat Kast 11 while being forced by WB to address the netcode in order to provide a false sense of hope for current buyers to purchase future DLC and future purchasers of MKX.

Case in point. You can't back ANY of this insane insinuation.

 

[WidowPuppy]

This has nothing to do with sides or the state of the game. It has to do with developer public outreach being used as a weapon to attack their credibility

Case in point. You can't back ANY of this insane insinuation.

Credibility...

Insane...

k

 

[MadeOfMetal]

This has nothing to do with sides or the state of the game. It has to do with developer public outreach being used as a weapon to attack their credibility.



Case in point. You can't back ANY of this insane insinuation.

everybody can back that statement! it rings true everywhere you look. ever since WB bought out NRS they have been making quick slapped together Netcode. aND wb DOES WHAT wb DOES makes the money and shovels the shit. feed you more till you are puking from lack of sustenance!

 

[Amplified$hotz]

An open letter has been produced in here. We'll see if they'll care about it.

A petition has been done IN HERE for MK9 (netcode fix etc). They couldn't care any less.

Asking them to produce more DLC is hardly the same thing as asking them to get those fingers out of their asses and fix their NRS netcode that has been a pain for ages.

Good luck with a petition.

Ed Boon told me on tweeter he doesn't have any more toilet paper, might come in handy.

An online petition. This site only has a small percentage of people who play MK. Maybe if the petition can get to lots of people other than the small amount of people here, change can come about.

 

[buyacushun]

guys. ggpo is not a magic bullet. You can't just "put" rollback code in a game that's already been made. WB is apparently unwilling (or NRS is incapable) to re-design their now almost 10 year old engine to facilitate it.

We can only hope (as we did this time) that next time WB will change their mind and NRS will finally gut this bloat fish of an engine. But millions of sales and thousands of online matches are going to make that a hard sell.

Idk about putting in a whole online service after a game is made but they certainly could've done something better before release. And I already said that if they want to make a 2.5d game that the Cannon's new game uses an upgraded version of GGPO they could possivly license for injustice 2.

What is your goal with constantly trying to dispute with people who have something negative to say? I get calling out some of the crazy things I've seen on this thread but you seem to be going after anything that shows disappointment with MKx.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

i need to post a video of lag last night. i actually had fun, lag was like 4 seconds. the game was completely different. just thought people could maybe realize how bad it was... dont know if you can see it visually but you might here button presses then the input several seconds after on screen... actually got a guy to chase me back over pred trap... he jumped and followed me over it, im sure because of lag... but it was hilarious... i know its not funny, but i tried having fun with it.

me and ESG magick went back and forth with the controller...cuz at first he didn't believe that i was lagging... until he felt it himself, as you know the lag is not usually visual its input lag, and on some days it becomes so bad that visual follows....
if you listen carefully you will notice Audio lag from in game.... this is an almost every 4 game occurance for me... its usually a bit better than this, but i have had worse as well..

ok it took a long time to upload... enjoy

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Where is netherrealm.com server located?
netherrealm.com server is located at Atlanta, United States and latitude & longitude of server is 33°45'12.9636" North, -84°23'24.522" West

What is the IP address of netherrealm.com server and who owns this ip address?
The ip address of netherrealm.com is 199.21.80.46. This ip address is owned by Turbine Entertainment Software

it has ip blocking

this is the best i can find so far....

 

[mercureXI]

An online petition. This site only has a small percentage of people who play MK. Maybe if the petition can get to lots of people other than the small amount of people here, change can come about.

Petition for MK9 : http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/jul/17/balance-patch-petition-mortal-kombat-9-picks-over-800-signatures/

There are online petitions for MKX going too like this one :

https://www.change.org/p/netherrealm-studios-change-the-netcode-in-mkx-to-ggpo/sponsors/new


My fight money that this won't change a thing.

A thousand people won't be enough.

 

[mercureXI]

Case in point. You can't back ANY of this insane insinuation.

Come on, mate, Ed Boon has said repeatedly that "PC version is awesome, just as good as consoles" during interviews. We all know how good PC port was on release . . .

He said that netcode will be great. "Mortal Kombat X Has Much Better Netcode Than MK9" ... clearly not.

"We're going to be on top of and watching and refining [the netcode] until we get it right."
"It's such a big part of fighting games now, online play, so we have to keep on it until it's right" -Ed Boon-

Sorry but it's quite clear lying isn't gonna stop them from selling Tremor candies ...

Those lines are there to reassure people on the fence about buying MKX or buying additional content.
Those lines are just lies. Plain and simple.

Time to wake up : Ed Boon isn't Santa Claus, if he tells you your presents are on the way for Christmas, good chance he actually can't care less but will bring you a lil' tiny Tremor figure to reward you for being a believer (remember to put 5 bucks near the fireplace though)

 

[Iced_Taz]

To be honest I have enough of online. Yesterday I played against guy who can:

- poke me when I was +5 or block
- punish me when I was neutral on block
- continue his pressure when he was -3 on block

That online causes only frustration. I can't show my full potential there, so I my plan is to quit that shit.

If I will play online that only for totally fun and with shit tiers.

 

[Marbledecker]

You can't back ANY of this insane insinuation.

Yep... thousands of unsatisfied customers, inside and outside of TYM, are making "insane insinuations" about their dissatisfaction with this product.

Think of this like the ol' Jackass theory:
If one person calls you a jackass, well that's fine, that's their opinion.
If a thousand people call you a jackass... then you might consider getting yourself a saddle.