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What is Net-Code and how can we help fix it?

WidowPuppy

Attack pekingese
Appreciate you tagging me in this but sadly, no need to try to figure out the problem for a billion dollar Development studio. They are fully aware of the problem, they are fully aware of several options to try to fix or at least improve the problem. There is no incentive or reason for them to do anything, especially since the game is already the best selling MK of all time, and will continue to make revenue well into the future.

This is a company that is dedicated to money, not the players experience or feelings towards the games playability or development studio.

Perfect examples. The supposed Community Manager's [Marketing Specialist] choice to outright ignore any thread, mass feedback, Tweets, interviews, reviews, etc... on this topic.

The lack of communication with the community to explain exactly how the system works [nobody knows, but them]. Is there servers, is it client to client? If it is P2P, who is the host, the one who sends the invite? In Player matches or Ranked how does it choose the host, etc... Are Faction stats and millions of players who are logged into the game not even playing online taking a toll?

Ed boon [Was lying about everything he could think of] But specifically said on Kombat Kast 11, when referring to excuses for the horrible experience... "There are way more people online in the game then we expected"

Okay so that says there are servers. Has there ever been a downtime or weekly scheduled downtime for server resets or maintenance... Nope.

Could go on, but whatever...

Lost cause. Kombat Pack 2 is on the way, GET HYPE!

And a special thanks to @tylerlansdown for showing us his ability to come into a thread and comment about some random online poster here on TYM saying something bad about True Talent. But for some reason, is blatantly ignoring over 2000 posts here on TYM asking for answers on this topic, suggesting solutions, etc...
 
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Wrubez

The Flow Instructor
In my experience, network performance is largely dependent on resources (both client and server), routing/switching methodology (backbone networking), ISP (provider, speed, etc), and network availability.

I highly doubt NRS is at a lack for resources in their data centers and they can also leverage Microsoft and Sony's almost endless array of server farms to help offset performance load but it's worth mentioning anyway. If there aren't enough hardware resources to support the millions of gamers that play online everyday then it goes without saying that there will be performance issues experiences frequently.

You also have to take into account whether or not you are in a multi tenant or dedicated connection setup. While NRS undoubtedly has many clustered nodes dedicated to MKX, you, the consumer, almost certainly do not unless you are very wealthy.

The most common internet connections used today are still broadband Internet (Comcast Cable Based Internet or Verizon FIOS fiber based Internet). These are multi-tenant setups.

Like it or not, you are sharing your overall connection with every Harry, Tom, and Kathy in your direct vicinity. That is because your CE, or customer equipment (modem most likely), connects via coax or fiber converted Ethernet back to the ISP's equipment and then out to the abyss known as the Internet, leveraging not only ISP routers, but outsourced routers (Cogent, Level 3 normally own these) shared with millions upon millions of other users.

Yes, no matter which ISP you use, eventually it all goes to the same place unless you have a VPN or MPLS dedicated connection to another node for example. However, although the routing paths are similar, you seperate yourself by how much you pay for the ISP to allocate bandwidth to your network segment. So it then becomes a matter of how fast you traverse the endless abyss of internet routers ro reach your ultimate destination. This is where geographic location becomes a large factor in network performance.

This is also why you see much less lag when playing someone who lives in the same town, county, or state, let alone the same country.

Then there is a matter of the infamous "netcode" itself. Assuming the fact that from a network later perspective, NRS has their shit in order, we move to layers 4-7 of the OSI model. Killer Instinct not withstanding, fighting games are notorious for their lag online. MKX undoubtedly has a bigger following than KI (if I'm wrong there I apologize) so more people alone gives way for more chances at lag but that doesn't excuse NRS developers from not writing shitty netcode.

Unfortunately without seeing the code itself though (and know wtf we are looking at), we are all victims of popular belief that "my connection is great so it just be the netcode"

Could be true, could not be true. We'll never know for sure. Personally I think the online in this game is shit and I would love it if NRS could debug their code and find out where and what they can correct to properly leverage the network and hardware resources that they are given. I'm just not as quick to blame from being in the network industry and facing performance scrutiny.

In a perfect world we would all have dedicated 10Gbps Ethernet lines with our ISP's and would likely experience almost zero lag for every game on earth but until that happens it's tough to predict a single point of failure bc there are likely several.

That's why I hope someone at NRS that is much smarter than I am has an "ah-ha" moment, fixes our online issues, and subsequently gets promoted to senior network consultant :)

(So you know I didn't produce this from my ass, I am a Sr. Network Engineer by trade so hopefully this came off as a somewhat educated explanation lol).

Sorry for the book.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Lol @ a few of the responses. Either A) you have never played a fighter with a real online and only played MK9/Injustice or B) you're just talking bs to defend NRS.

My excellent hardline high speed connection that plays other fighting games flawlessly seems to lag on MKX. The way it did MK9. Yet all the other fighters, the other games, play amazing online. I wonder why. Wonder why PS3 games like TTT2 were incredible online. Why I hear everyone say Ki is amazing online. Why most games in 2015 have barely any online complaints. Why? Are their connections only amazing when playing other games and other fighters, but become fail connections when playing MKX?

It must be that every time I play this sole game I'm doing something wrong, but any time I play literally every other game I'm doing something right. Makes the most sense.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
Damn I get no love in a netcode post?

Thanks for the info Jagged. I have a couple questions that you or maybe someone else can answer for me.
Aren't most, if not all fighters P2P? Would that mean some of this server - or client-side stuff doesn't pertain to them? I think it was tickrate and a few other things that seem to be if someone is communicating with a neutral server part for connection. But if it's just two "clients" than isn't it a different situation?
Does GGPO and/or other rollback netcodes use extrapolation as the main way of handling connection and inputs?

I saw someone link the tekken article on Ehubs. They have a good netcode but I'm wary about changing the game to accommodate online. It changes how some things play just to make it closer to offline. When T7 comes out I'd be curious to see what someone has to say from playing online to playing offline.

I think GGxrd uses a sort of variable input delay system. While playing online the amount of delay will display in the corner. I'm supposedly getting 4f of delay when I play a friend in a different state. In Skullgirls the recommended delay setting will be anywhere from 0-2f (as if it was one of the best possible connections) to 3-5f (which is for yellow ping and average playing settings). Could anyone tell me what kind of "tricks" these 2 games are using in regards to the different things listed in the OP?

In MK sometimes it works and sometimes I cant block or wakeup properly. It really feels like a mixed bag in the same conditions, usually on the laggy side. MK at it's best is still the worst imo.
 

Skkra

PSN: Skkra
I think the solution is for everyone to have a good connection and be wired. That's it. I've played in those conditions and the online is pretty good, I think most people are connecting to people with shitty internet.
I agree with your main point, but I don't for a moment believe that its the issue. Everyone should have the best internet access that they can, yes - but as many have said, it's seems kind of odd that NRS games are the only ones where my play experience is laggy, unplayable, unenjoyable garbage.

If the issue is user overload, well, it's WB! Technology is ridiculously scalable today. Add more horsepower to existing VMs, or add more VMs to the clusters, etc etc etc. Their job is to provide a good play experience for their customers who are continually supporting them by buying skins, characters, etc.

I have trouble believing that when Tekken Tag 2, Killer Instinct, BlazBlue, Skullgirls, and even Street Fighter 4 (to a lesser extent) all run beautifully on my inner-city Comcast connection, and all NRS games have played like utter shit, that it's somehow the fault of anything other than NRS/WB. Not to mention that Heroes of Newerth, League of Legends, DOTA II, and every other PC game I've ever tried plays flawlessly.
 

Wrubez

The Flow Instructor
If the issue is user overload, well, it's WB! Technology is ridiculously scalable today. Add more horsepower to existing VMs, or add more VMs to the clusters, etc etc etc. Their job is to provide a good play experience for their customers who are continually supporting them by buying skins, characters, etc.
1000% this. That's what I meant in my post that I highly doubt it's for a lack of resources. If it is then shame on them and add some fucking horsepower. Seriously it's 2015. They have the capital to get hardware with TB's of RAM and 100 CPU's for which they can split into several dedicated VM's. It's not dial up days and 1 GB RAM is the shit anymore.

Since I am biased to network by nature of course I point to software (and software guys will point right back to me) but there is a disconnect somewhere and it needs to be found. Leverage the horsepower average consumers can't even fathom and let me do a god damn NJP to continue a combo.

Rant over. They know. No need to beat a dead horse any further I get it but it's just surprising to see nowadays, even for a fighting game.
 

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
Quit tagging Colt, it won't do shit. This is NRs job not ours. Our job is to buy and support their fucking products period.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
Ok, this might sound uneducated, mostly because it is, but how do servers work? What I mean is, what are and where are the servers I'm playing on? I play on PC, so international games aren't uncommon. What I want to know is am I having to connect to say Uruguay or is Uruguay connecting to me, or are we both connecting to a basement full of servers in California? How does this work?

I ask this because I often have to deal with ping just being an absolute mystery. In game, I always see myself as full green, but other people see me as yellow, and apparently the exact opposite is true in that they are listed green to themselves and I see them as yellow. Is this a representation of our connection to an individual person or to the server or...I just don't know enough about this subject to really make an educated guess.

Very informative thread. I enjoyed reading it.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
I'm with @d3v. While I thank you for your nice explanation, which I hope will educate some people, we have no idea what NRS's implementation looks like.

I have no idea why NRS has perpetually garbage netcode. Are they tied into some multi-game deal with a third party provider that we dont know about? Who knows.

What I DO know, particularly being a professional programmer myself for over a decade now, is that there is zero reason to reinvent the wheel in the modern era of programming. There are a million third party libraries out there nowadays, and teams should be choosing among them and building for them starting in the design phase of a project. I sure as hell dont know how to write spectacular rollback-based netcode - but I know Tony Cannon did, so I'll build my project with his libraries.

When you have netcode as tried and true as GGPO, I cant for the life of me understand why you wouldnt use it. Hopefully they will in the next title? Who knows.

Im fairly sure that nothing is going to change for MKX. This is what we have. The netcode is surely baked way too deep in the product to do an overhaul.
it can be changed and fixed, but we have to sell it in a way that they feel it can be quick easy and cheap! open beta or something along those lines!
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
Ok, this might sound uneducated, mostly because it is, but how do servers work? What I mean is, what are and where are the servers I'm playing on? I play on PC, so international games aren't uncommon. What I want to know is am I having to connect to say Uruguay or is Uruguay connecting to me, or are we both connecting to a basement full of servers in California? How does this work?

I ask this because I often have to deal with ping just being an absolute mystery. In game, I always see myself as full green, but other people see me as yellow, and apparently the exact opposite is true in that they are listed green to themselves and I see them as yellow. Is this a representation of our connection to an individual person or to the server or...I just don't know enough about this subject to really make an educated guess.

Very informative thread. I enjoyed reading it.
your ping should be what they see. what i mean by that is if you connect to another player and you see them as 4 bars green, they should see the same thing, because that represents your connections to eachother. they really fucked up on ping when they made that garbage, they really need to implement a displayed ping amount in ms's....

as for servers, you should connect to the closest one available, in other word's HOP to thiere location in the fastest way route.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
oh look

thread number 3 about the horribly designed, uplayable netcode.

hopefully this will perpetuate ANOTHER massive money toss at some tournament!!!

I approve of this tactic and am surprised the offline guys aren't on here doing MORE bitching to raise the pots!!!
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
Appreciate you tagging me in this but sadly, No need to try to figure out the problem for a billion dollar Development studio. They are fully aware of the problem, they are fully aware of several options to try to fix or at least improve the problem. There is no incentive or reason for them to do anything, especially since the game is already the best selling MK of all time, and will continue to make revenue well into the future.

This is a company that is dedicated to money, not the players experience or feelings towards the games playability or development studio.

Perfect examples. The supposed Community Manager's [Marketing Specialist] choice to outright ignore any thread, mass feedback, Tweets, interviews, reviews, etc... on this topic.

The lack of communication with the community to explain exactly how the system works [nobody knows, but them]. Is there servers, is it client to client? If it is P2P, who is the host, the one who sends the invite? In Player matches or Ranked how does it choose the host, etc... Are Faction stats and millions of players who are logged into the game not even playing online taking a toll?

Ed boon [Was lying about everything he could think of] But specifically said on Kombat Kast 11, when referring to excuses for the horrible experience... "There are way more people online in the game then we expected"

Okay so that says there are servers. Has their ever been a downtime or weekly scheduled downtime for server resets or maintenance... Nope.

Could go on, but whatever...

Lost cause. Kombat Pack 2 is on the way, GET HYPE!

And a special thanks to @tylerlansdown for showing us his ability to come into a thread and comment about some random online poster here on TYM saying something bad about True Talent. But for some reason, is blatantly ignoring over 2000 posts here on TYM asking for answers on this topic, suggesting solutions, etc...
while i agree to some point, tyler has no clue how this happends, you can tell he is a lost puppy dog. as for them being able to fix it, i honestly think they are stuck in the stone ages, and dont know how to right the code for modern ages. old dogs some times can't learn new tricks. i do beileve this is a very hard problem to fix, whatever it may be... i think they are p2p in koth if that means anything, someone has to be the host, that would explain if you stream you can lag the entire koth match.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
In my experience, network performance is largely dependent on resources (both client and server), routing/switching methodology (backbone networking), ISP (provider, speed, etc), and network availability.

I highly doubt NRS is at a lack for resources in their data centers and they can also leverage Microsoft and Sony's almost endless array of server farms to help offset performance load but it's worth mentioning anyway. If there aren't enough hardware resources to support the millions of gamers that play online everyday then it goes without saying that there will be performance issues experiences frequently.

You also have to take into account whether or not you are in a multi tenant or dedicated connection setup. While NRS undoubtedly has many clustered nodes dedicated to MKX, you, the consumer, almost certainly do not unless you are very wealthy.

The most common internet connections used today are still broadband Internet (Comcast Cable Based Internet or Verizon FIOS fiber based Internet). These are multi-tenant setups.

Like it or not, you are sharing your overall connection with every Harry, Tom, and Kathy in your direct vicinity. That is because your CE, or customer equipment (modem most likely), connects via coax or fiber converted Ethernet back to the ISP's equipment and then out to the abyss known as the Internet, leveraging not only ISP routers, but outsourced routers (Cogent, Level 3 normally own these) shared with millions upon millions of other users.

Yes, no matter which ISP you use, eventually it all goes to the same place unless you have a VPN or MPLS dedicated connection to another node for example. However, although the routing paths are similar, you seperate yourself by how much you pay for the ISP to allocate bandwidth to your network segment. So it then becomes a matter of how fast you traverse the endless abyss of internet routers ro reach your ultimate destination. This is where geographic location becomes a large factor in network performance.

This is also why you see much less lag when playing someone who lives in the same town, county, or state, let alone the same country.

Then there is a matter of the infamous "netcode" itself. Assuming the fact that from a network later perspective, NRS has their shit in order, we move to layers 4-7 of the OSI model. Killer Instinct not withstanding, fighting games are notorious for their lag online. MKX undoubtedly has a bigger following than KI (if I'm wrong there I apologize) so more people alone gives way for more chances at lag but that doesn't excuse NRS developers from not writing shitty netcode.

Unfortunately without seeing the code itself though (and know wtf we are looking at), we are all victims of popular belief that "my connection is great so it just be the netcode"

Could be true, could not be true. We'll never know for sure. Personally I think the online in this game is shit and I would love it if NRS could debug their code and find out where and what they can correct to properly leverage the network and hardware resources that they are given. I'm just not as quick to blame from being in the network industry and facing performance scrutiny.

In a perfect world we would all have dedicated 10Gbps Ethernet lines with our ISP's and would likely experience almost zero lag for every game on earth but until that happens it's tough to predict a single point of failure bc there are likely several.

That's why I hope someone at NRS that is much smarter than I am has an "ah-ha" moment, fixes our online issues, and subsequently gets promoted to senior network consultant :)

(So you know I didn't produce this from my ass, I am a Sr. Network Engineer by trade so hopefully this came off as a somewhat educated explanation lol).

Sorry for the book.
do you feel that having a Ping in game could help us find a solution, or at lest the proof of problem! something to at least evade online lag issues
 

Houndovhell

Subby-Z is my Main Man, the Man that I Main
oh man. reading all this high-tech internet words has reminded me of my CoD days. About the end of Ghosts there was a prototype released for your router, that would give the consoles packets highest priority, to ensure absolutely no latency on your end of the spectrum. I myself have not been able to test, or have heard anything about this company since, but what i did see from the teams that were allowed to "beta test" against other testers, was some smooth, and truly accurate ONLINE gameplay.
Now, this is not possible in our situation, as this only helps our connection, and not the others/hosts and in situations of lag compensation - is kinda pointless :p But it did indeed show the possibilities of the game tested.

My suggestion for NRS? maybe give us a option to not play vs Wifi players, or see direct PING, or maybe even see their lag rates? (if possible, still a rad idea imo xD)

I'm hoping NRS takes notes on this game, and uses it to put forward on their next. And have close to KI fighting game online performance. :) thanks for tagging btw. First time being tagged in an OP. Am hoolywerd nao :D
 

WidowPuppy

Attack pekingese
have you found a Tracert to NRS main servers? id think everyone should know there ping to nrs.... i think this would explain alot
No clue where their servers are, not allowed to know.

All I do know, is that from my location with my 60 Up 30 Down Wired internet... MKX Online is totally unplayable for me [8+ to 30+ frames of input delay always]. No matter what the bars say, no matter what my opponents connection quality is, it is always unplayable.