kabelfritz
Master
quoting myself from the other thread:
if the community can unite behind this, i (or someone else with good writing skills) will make a letter out of it and find a good channel to communicate it to NRS.
please dont derail this thread.
Updates:
Experienced issues:
- counterpoking: sometimes i should get a punish after the opponents poke on block but he can just throw out another attack and beat mine
- blocking: sometimes i get hit by 2 pokes in a row even though i block after the first. also calculated last-second-blocks (yes i know block has Startup) never work.
- Combos: some tight links are practically impossible online
- raiden run cancel combos dont work online.
- d3 into overhead is sometimes not blocked even if gone from low to high block in time, General issue for low into Overhead
- punishes are harder or impossible
- Overall Feeling of 5f lag, so counterpoke, frametrapping and footsies dont work as intended
- some people cant even connect to online
- MKX online feels like a different game
- xbox user had a point where they couldnt play online in a month (i didnt know that was the case?)
- one user can only play on saturday, otherwise he has an hour of connecting time, then recieves "game session no t available".
- one use with a 60 mbps down an 30 upload can get 8 Frames of delay at best, while his friend with a way worse Connection claims to do better.
- Inputs can be "eaten up" by lag, so ducking into b2 becomes d2, or 33~df4 becomes 3f4 (jacqui)
- run cancel into block can be read as breaker due to delay.
- the delay can cause wake up attacks not to work, correct throw techs and anti-airs not come out in time or jump punches come out so late you almost touched the ground again.
- reversals can hardly be done with the current lag
- jump attacks become too strong online because you cant anti-air properly.
- some users claim the online experience is worse than IGAU or even MK9, ist a step back.
- multiple users report of being stuck at the "reading stats" message, or the game not progressing at the "ending game" message, which forces to restart.
- People compare the netplay on par or below games like tekken 6 or Soul Calibur 4
- People suspect it might have to do with the unreal engine, as gears of war is laggy too.
- the 4 bar system does not analyze wireless connections with inconstant performance correctly but only shows momentary state. so you can see 4 bars but have a really laggy match.
Meta issues:
- Competitive online play like ESL suffers;
- Viewers losing interest for esl because they know it doesnt represent the "real" game.
- Online is no good training for offline events which could be discouraging if you wanna attend them.
- the different timing on- and offline can lead to crucial mistakes in tournaments (we saw a lot of drops in the esl offline final).
- ambitious players feel they dont get good training at all
- a big amount of people have dropped the game after a short time and opted not to buy DLC because of their poor online experience.
- Players feel ignored and get frustrated because there are not even statements from nrs about the state of the netplay
- the pc version already has a low number of online players (27 on a screenshot)
- some players want to be competitive online, but the laggy netplay does not allow them to play at their best.
- Many usres experience NRS as greedy company that doesnt care about the quality of netplay as long as the game has good sales numbers.
- a user say hed feel better if nrs only admitted there is a problem with teh quality of netplay.
- some People feel like NRS is using resources on live action trailers and kombat pack advertisement insead of fixing the netplay
Ideas for Improvement:
- Showing ping instead of bars (or both)
- Showing if people use WiFi (so that we can evade that shit like plague)
- online beta for the next nrs game
- it IS possible to make netplay better after release, as DICE Shows http://mp1st.com/2015/05/13/dice-la-introduces-120hz-tickrate-to-battlefield-4-cte-aka-really-good-netcode/#.VafeZo8VhjR
- DICE also do constant testing together with the community to improve things like the netplay, and regular server maintenance.
- this long post explains a mixture of rollback and Input delay netcodes that might do better: (read that link on the bottom of the spoiler its a perfect explanation)
Games with good netcode:
- Driveclub
- Titanfall
- Soul Calibur V (even just frame links and just guards possible, online players doing well in offline tournaments)
- Killer Instinct
- Tekken Tag 2
- Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown
- Blazeblue: Every Version
- SkullGirls
- Latest Street Fighter
- NRS are "the bottom of the Barrel"
everybody who is concerned about the netcode, voice your opinion here and bring constructive points why and how it should be changed. which issues exactly are you experiencing? viewpoints of everybody are welcome, it would be especially cool if people with programming knowledge or info about the alternative "rollback" netcode could contribute.
if the community can unite behind this, i (or someone else with good writing skills) will make a letter out of it and find a good channel to communicate it to NRS.
please dont derail this thread.
Updates:
Experienced issues:
- counterpoking: sometimes i should get a punish after the opponents poke on block but he can just throw out another attack and beat mine
- blocking: sometimes i get hit by 2 pokes in a row even though i block after the first. also calculated last-second-blocks (yes i know block has Startup) never work.
- Combos: some tight links are practically impossible online
- raiden run cancel combos dont work online.
- d3 into overhead is sometimes not blocked even if gone from low to high block in time, General issue for low into Overhead
- punishes are harder or impossible
- Overall Feeling of 5f lag, so counterpoke, frametrapping and footsies dont work as intended
- some people cant even connect to online
- MKX online feels like a different game
- xbox user had a point where they couldnt play online in a month (i didnt know that was the case?)
- one user can only play on saturday, otherwise he has an hour of connecting time, then recieves "game session no t available".
- one use with a 60 mbps down an 30 upload can get 8 Frames of delay at best, while his friend with a way worse Connection claims to do better.
- Inputs can be "eaten up" by lag, so ducking into b2 becomes d2, or 33~df4 becomes 3f4 (jacqui)
- run cancel into block can be read as breaker due to delay.
- the delay can cause wake up attacks not to work, correct throw techs and anti-airs not come out in time or jump punches come out so late you almost touched the ground again.
- reversals can hardly be done with the current lag
- jump attacks become too strong online because you cant anti-air properly.
- some users claim the online experience is worse than IGAU or even MK9, ist a step back.
- multiple users report of being stuck at the "reading stats" message, or the game not progressing at the "ending game" message, which forces to restart.
- People compare the netplay on par or below games like tekken 6 or Soul Calibur 4
- People suspect it might have to do with the unreal engine, as gears of war is laggy too.
- the 4 bar system does not analyze wireless connections with inconstant performance correctly but only shows momentary state. so you can see 4 bars but have a really laggy match.
Meta issues:
- Competitive online play like ESL suffers;
- Viewers losing interest for esl because they know it doesnt represent the "real" game.
- Online is no good training for offline events which could be discouraging if you wanna attend them.
- the different timing on- and offline can lead to crucial mistakes in tournaments (we saw a lot of drops in the esl offline final).
- ambitious players feel they dont get good training at all
- a big amount of people have dropped the game after a short time and opted not to buy DLC because of their poor online experience.
- Players feel ignored and get frustrated because there are not even statements from nrs about the state of the netplay
- the pc version already has a low number of online players (27 on a screenshot)
- some players want to be competitive online, but the laggy netplay does not allow them to play at their best.
- Many usres experience NRS as greedy company that doesnt care about the quality of netplay as long as the game has good sales numbers.
- a user say hed feel better if nrs only admitted there is a problem with teh quality of netplay.
- some People feel like NRS is using resources on live action trailers and kombat pack advertisement insead of fixing the netplay
Ideas for Improvement:
- Showing ping instead of bars (or both)
- Showing if people use WiFi (so that we can evade that shit like plague)
- online beta for the next nrs game
- it IS possible to make netplay better after release, as DICE Shows http://mp1st.com/2015/05/13/dice-la-introduces-120hz-tickrate-to-battlefield-4-cte-aka-really-good-netcode/#.VafeZo8VhjR
- DICE also do constant testing together with the community to improve things like the netplay, and regular server maintenance.
- this long post explains a mixture of rollback and Input delay netcodes that might do better: (read that link on the bottom of the spoiler its a perfect explanation)
The only game I played with the ability to set your own frame delay with GGPO is Skullgirls. But here is my interpretation of how it's done.
The reason I prefer input delay over rollback is simply because it keeps your offline timing. With input delay the game takes more frames to register your input, so now everything is messed up. With rollback netcodes (like GGPO), you set the frame delay for YOUR actions and GGPO makes save states to fix any discrepancies during gameplay. So you can set it to 0 frames and get a nice offline experience but there will be constant rollbacks, or "teleporting" and flickering, if the connection can't keep up with that. With ok connections I'll set mine between 2-4 frames which isn't a big difference for skullgirls and do my combos with near the same timing as when I'm in training mode. There are less rollbacks because GGPO has more time to check the save states of both players and match up what should be happening on screen. If you want to play without any graphical oddities you would just set a high frame delay like 8 or so but then you'd have your classic "underwater" gameplay. Which is also a big problem with how some companies approach online. They'd rather it look pretty than be functional.
Say the netcode NRS uses now has an input delay of 6 frames for online matches. Everything I do will take 6 frames to even start which would make dealing with mixups incredibly hard or getting through zoning a nightmare. I press punch it doesn't come out until 6 frames later and to block I need to be 6 frames quicker. With a rollback netcode, if you set yours to 0 than everything you do will happen instantly on your screen. But if I have mine set to 4 than the game won't know what I was doing until 4 frames later. So if you see a hit then it stutters and now i'm blocking, that's because on the frame you saw a hit I was actually blocking and GGPO realizes this and sets the game back to show me blocking and then proceeds as normal.
So NRS can implement a set delay, a variable system and I think they can do a mixture of both by having a set delay but make it slight and also use rollbacks for discrepancies. I think the variable system works fine as long as people realize what it's doing. It allows for everyone to set the experience they want to have. I can tell you my experience with Skullgirls has been a much happier one compared to MKx.
I typed all this out and then realized I'm sure someone explained it way better than I did. Without a doubt here is Mike_Z explaining GGPO. http://skullgirls.com/2011/09/skull...dium=rss&utm_campaign=skullgirls-ggpo-and-you
The reason I prefer input delay over rollback is simply because it keeps your offline timing. With input delay the game takes more frames to register your input, so now everything is messed up. With rollback netcodes (like GGPO), you set the frame delay for YOUR actions and GGPO makes save states to fix any discrepancies during gameplay. So you can set it to 0 frames and get a nice offline experience but there will be constant rollbacks, or "teleporting" and flickering, if the connection can't keep up with that. With ok connections I'll set mine between 2-4 frames which isn't a big difference for skullgirls and do my combos with near the same timing as when I'm in training mode. There are less rollbacks because GGPO has more time to check the save states of both players and match up what should be happening on screen. If you want to play without any graphical oddities you would just set a high frame delay like 8 or so but then you'd have your classic "underwater" gameplay. Which is also a big problem with how some companies approach online. They'd rather it look pretty than be functional.
Say the netcode NRS uses now has an input delay of 6 frames for online matches. Everything I do will take 6 frames to even start which would make dealing with mixups incredibly hard or getting through zoning a nightmare. I press punch it doesn't come out until 6 frames later and to block I need to be 6 frames quicker. With a rollback netcode, if you set yours to 0 than everything you do will happen instantly on your screen. But if I have mine set to 4 than the game won't know what I was doing until 4 frames later. So if you see a hit then it stutters and now i'm blocking, that's because on the frame you saw a hit I was actually blocking and GGPO realizes this and sets the game back to show me blocking and then proceeds as normal.
So NRS can implement a set delay, a variable system and I think they can do a mixture of both by having a set delay but make it slight and also use rollbacks for discrepancies. I think the variable system works fine as long as people realize what it's doing. It allows for everyone to set the experience they want to have. I can tell you my experience with Skullgirls has been a much happier one compared to MKx.
I typed all this out and then realized I'm sure someone explained it way better than I did. Without a doubt here is Mike_Z explaining GGPO. http://skullgirls.com/2011/09/skull...dium=rss&utm_campaign=skullgirls-ggpo-and-you
Games with good netcode:
- Driveclub
- Titanfall
- Soul Calibur V (even just frame links and just guards possible, online players doing well in offline tournaments)
- Killer Instinct
- Tekken Tag 2
- Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown
- Blazeblue: Every Version
- SkullGirls
- Latest Street Fighter
- NRS are "the bottom of the Barrel"
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