Should a backdash really cost a stamina bar?

[SneakyTortoise]

One last post, then I'm out of here for good.
I keep seeing people saying "oh you're cherry picking, picking all these characters with good anti-airs, what about characters like Ferra/Torr?"
Everyone agrees that Tanya is the most dangerous character in the air right?
It took me all of 40 seconds to find this.

Ferra/Torr is clearly free to jump-ins.
Edit: Also added for those of you who like to be frugal with meter and hate Tanya's ex teleport

 

[Doombawkz]

Imagine characters with safe 50/50 mix ups in a game with running, abundant teleports, and mediocre defensive options.

Yet you do not mind because you are an anti-zoning zealot and a scrub.

Referring to your earlier post, we saw a Kenshi player do quite well without using safe 50/50 mix-ups against running, abundant teleports, and "mediocre" defensive options.

So does the rule not apply to Kenshi? We saw a Tanya beat a pure-rushdown character like Lackey Torr (50/50 safe mix-ups, ridiculous range, and so on) mostly by playing like Zatanna against him.
Does it not apply to that?

Give me a reason, just ONE valid reason, as to why backdashes need a buff. Just one.

I don't care about your opinion on what I'm saying or who I am, I want to know why you think being able to backdash for free should be put in with regards to the entire cast and not simply your one specific character of choice against 3 or 4 specific enemies of choice. If you can think on that large of a scale, I mean.


Do you even have a base for your argument? Out of genuine curiosity, are you only arguing in sake of it because "something something zoning" or do you actually have a pull into the entire thing? Is it just debating to debate, calling people out? If so, why even show up to the discussion? Theres the ability to update your status, you can use that to have one-sided conversations of no real merit or consequence.

 

[WakeUp DP]

A little exaggerated but yeah you can get good damage off aa's in sf4. Dps are normally 3 frames and need meter to focus cancel and ultra though.

There's a ton of sf games where aa's lead to a lot of damage.

U can combo off for example Ryu's AA DP into ultra without super meter....

Also 2-3 frames fully invincible! While on MKX AAs are from 12-19 frames and most can be NJP'd lol.

 

[Doombawkz]

One last post, then I'm out of here for good.
I keep seeing people saying "oh you're cherry picking, picking all these characters with good anti-airs, what about characters like Ferra/Torr?"
Everyone agrees that Tanya is the most dangerous character in the air right?
It took me all of 40 seconds to find this.

Ferra/Torr is clearly free to jump-ins.
Edit: Also added for those of you who like to be frugal with meter and hate Tanya's ex teleport

Torr is free to late cross-ups, he decimates people jumping in front of him. Its people jumping over him that gives him the shits.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

Torr is free to late cross-ups, he decimates people jumping in front of him. Its people jumping over him that gives him the shits.

Any reason why? He seems to handle the Tanya ex teleport there.

 

[Doombawkz]

Any reason why? He seems to handle the Tanya ex teleport there.

Most characters can j.i.p and it'll hit Torr even in his lowered hitbox state, Tanya is one of the very few exceptions.
Likewise while Lackey has an answer in MB upper, You need meter for other things in that variation and the other 2 lack that kind of ability.

 

[Scott The Scot]

Imagine characters with safe 50/50 mix ups in a game with running, abundant teleports, and mediocre defensive options.

Yet you do not mind because you are an anti-zoning zealot and a scrub.

You can't even make a real point or provide evidence to backup anything you say. Your opinion holds so little weight and is invaild on this matter.

Safe doesn't = plus on block. It's your turn to push buttons; try throwing your opponent and conditioning them to let go of block and attempt an escape in which you will punish with a move that sends them full screen so you can zone. Attacking teleports are punishable. You just have a weak defensive game to properly use tools.

I'm not anti-zoning, but I just think a person shouldn't be able to use ONLY zoning to win. That's ridiculous, a good player should be able to do it all anyway.

It's just that some backdashes are comeplete shit and still get hit due to it hardly being invincible.

Some characters have weaknesses, that's just something every main has to accept. Not every character is going be an unpenetrable fortress of pwng lol

 

[SneakyTortoise]

Most characters can j.i.p and it'll hit Torr even in his lowered hitbox state, Tanya is one of the very few exceptions.
Likewise while Lackey has an answer in MB upper, You need meter for other things in that variation and the other 2 lack that kind of ability.

Cool, that's good to know thank you. The main point of my post though was that most people he is a good example of someone who cannot anti-air at all. I wanted to show that this is not true and he can even deal with Tanya when she's trying to jump on him. He then struggles tremendously when this character backs off to full screen for free, which people here would want to be extended to every character.

 

[Bryck Walle]

Backdashes while not all are great, are fine as is. Same with anti airs. Go into practice mode and just learn what your anti air is, if you even have one. If you don't, then maybe that's a weakness MEANT for your character and you should learn to you know...capitalize on your strengths and try to not put yourself in those bad situations. <----aka level up. There are some characters that shouldn't need a good backdash. Some characters you shouldn't backdash against. Learn the game, and play your character how they're meant to be played. Maybe they cost a bar for a reason, so you don't have the ability to spam it and have to think about when to throw them out. Das it.

 

[Doombawkz]

Cool, that's good to know thank you. The main point of my post though was that most people he is a good example of someone who cannot anti-air at all. I wanted to show that this is not true and he can even deal with Tanya when she's trying to jump on him. He then struggles tremendously when this character backs off to full screen for free, which people here would want to be extended to every character.

I don't think Lackey is actually the best variation against her, but I personally have my thoughts on stuff and that'll wait until after the mass buffing.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I don't think Lackey is actually the best variation against her, but I personally have my thoughts on stuff and that'll wait until after the mass buffing.

I just love Lackey, I do need to explore the others though.

 

[Scoot Magee]

U can combo off for example Ryu's AA DP into ultra without super meter....

Also 2-3 frames fully invincible! While on MKX AAs are from 12-19 frames and most can be NJP'd lol.

Yes but that's his jab dragon punch that can AA into ultra without super meter. His jab dp doesn't have the invincible properties of his other dp's as you implied. It has to be a super early AA and you need ultra meter for the damage.

 

[Scott The Scot]

Just so everyone can witness the Doctor Stabs vs Michelangelo set:

Go to around 30 minutes and watch this set. It's beautiful.

 

[M2Dave]

Referring to your earlier post, we saw a Kenshi player do quite well without using safe 50/50 mix-ups against running, abundant teleports, and "mediocre" defensive options.

So does the rule not apply to Kenshi? We saw a Tanya beat a pure-rushdown character like Lackey Torr (50/50 safe mix-ups, ridiculous range, and so on) mostly by playing like Zatanna against him.
Does it not apply to that?

Give me a reason, just ONE valid reason, as to why backdashes need a buff. Just one.

I don't care about your opinion on what I'm saying or who I am, I want to know why you think being able to backdash for free should be put in with regards to the entire cast and not simply your one specific character of choice against 3 or 4 specific enemies of choice. If you can think on that large of a scale, I mean..

The game favors offensive gameplay over defensive gameplay. One of the main reasons for the offensive advantage is that anything that moves you forward is rewarded more so than anything that moves you backward. In fact, the game punishes you for moving backward by draining half your stamina. While the backward movement has some invincibility frames, most characters in this game have long-ranged normal attacks that are part of their offensive repertoire anyway.

Kenshi's tournament viability remains to be seen. Tanya, on the other hand, is definitely a top tier character. One of the reasons is because she has access to mobility that costs no stamina. She can more or less backdash with an instant aerial teleport without losing stamina.

I'm not anti-zoning, but I just think a person shouldn't be able to use ONLY zoning to win. That's ridiculous, a good player should be able to do it all anyway.

What about only using 50/50 mix ups or pressure in order to win?

 

[TopTierHarley]

Sure, let D'vorah backdash for free then hit you with her long range F2 or advancing F1 which would lead into WC pressure.

 

[Doombawkz]

The game favors offensive gameplay over defensive gameplay. One of the main reasons for the offensive advantage is that anything that moves you forward is rewarded more so than anything that moves you backward. In fact, the game punishes you for moving backward by draining half your stamina. While the backward movement has some invincibility frames, most characters in this game have long-ranged normal attacks that are part of their offensive repertoire anyway.

Kenshi's tournament viability remains to be seen. Tanya, on the other hand, is definitely a top tier character. One of the reasons is because she has access to mobility that costs no stamina. She can more or less backdash with an instant aerial teleport without losing stamina.

It favors being able to maintain pressure, however the idea of "offense vs defense" isn't the actual issue here. As far as "defensive" options go, there exist quite a few to counteract the "offensive" options. Examples being your 7f spin, Torr's uppercut armor, just armor in general on moves. Is there enough to enable defense to be the best strategy? No, and there should not be. Defense should be something where smart play will get you out of it, not something you should mitigate entirely. We can't simply devalue offensive play in order to provide defense with an equal ground. Forward movement also drains your stamina via running.

In short, the issue isn't about the balance of offense vs defense because both sides have their purpose and both sides can perform it.

This is not to say some character should have all of their tools, by all means I feel like Erron black could use some tweaks, however as a whole the cast can't afford to have backdashes buffed to the point where they become free because then everyone is a Tanya, and some characters can't compete in that field. At least in the current state, every character has some option to get out of pressure, and if they don't, they have added benefits elsewhere.

 

[Qwark28]

Uh since when does doing damage constitute a good anti air? In Street Fighter you get way less damage for Anti airing than in MKx as it is usually like one DP or one uppercut. In MKX you can convert into combos off of half of those options and the other half lead to a full combo punish.

Street fighter is a completely different game. DP fadc is upwards of 40% and damage in SF is much more valuable since the pace of that game is slow and 5% life is a huge difference when it comes to lifeleads and footsies.

You cannot compare the games, they're drastically different and follow different mindsets.

 

[AK Black Preon]

​

One last post, then I'm out of here for good.
I keep seeing people saying "oh you're cherry picking, picking all these characters with good anti-airs, what about characters like Ferra/Torr?"
Everyone agrees that Tanya is the most dangerous character in the air right?
It took me all of 40 seconds to find this.

Ferra/Torr is clearly free to jump-ins.
Edit: Also added for those of you who like to be frugal with meter and hate Tanya's ex teleport

this is where they tell you. "Thats one cherry picked variation"

 

[Farpafraf]

Also something that bothers me is people saying the game is dominated by "offensive" play that outclasses the "defensive" aspect.
Like what? You have plenty of people saying it happens, but theres no real example of anything that doesn't have an answer.

Backdashes don't need buffing, the community needs buffing.

The primary example is that I've never seen a timeout in MKX.

 

[Scott The Scot]

What about only using 50/50 mix ups or pressure in order to win?

But it's not JUST those that win matches. How do they get into these situation where they are allowed to 50/50? Or where they're allowed to just pressure you relentlessly? I feel people need to learn to keep their composure and understand that pressure doesn't mean they have to infinitely block untill a really unsafe move is made. Like I've said multiple times, you can't just have one style then only use it and expect not to play footsies because you have an "unbeatable" zoning strategy - everyone has to learn to deal with every situation and handle it accordingly; even if you don't like playing upclose it's something you're going to have to do so that you CAN stay full screen and start zoning. Sometimes you will have to make a read, that's normal.

Some people will play footsies and if they're successful they'll rushdown the opponent (pressure, mixups etc) and some people will play footsies and if they;re successful they will send the opponent full screen to play they're prefered game of zoning (projectiles, long range normals etc).

 

[Scott The Scot]

The primary example is that I've never seen a timeout in MKX.

It's a fast-paced, high damage game. You can expect that there won't be a lot of timeouts especially with 99 seconds on the clock. Doesn't make defensive play bad.

 

[Doombawkz]

The primary example is that I've never seen a timeout in MKX.

You're right, the game is full of 40%/50% combos off of a single touch and fast moves, and the clock is slow.

What that shows isn't that Defensive play is dead, worthless, or weak. What it shows is the game is not completely lopsided in favor of defensive play.

 

[Farpafraf]

It's a fast-paced, high damage game. You can expect that there won't be a lot of timeouts especially with 99 seconds on the clock. Doesn't make defensive play bad.

I've never seen a single timeout and the average length of a match is probably around 20 seconds: I'm not saying that defensive options do not exist but I think this might hint that MKX is heavily centered on the offense.
I don't really see a reason not to buff primary defensive mechanics like backdashes or block breakers.

 

[Scott The Scot]

I've never seen a single timeout and the average length of a match is probably around 20 seconds: I'm not saying that defensive options do not exist but I think this might hint that MKX is heavily based on the offense.
I don't really see a reason not to buff primary defensive mechanics like backdashes or block breakers.

I don't see what's wrong with backdashes or block breakers to be fair. Block breakers might cost too much, that's all I can think of. If you're going to argue about backdashes though - just don't. Go back and read the other pages.

 

[M2Dave]

Defense should be something where smart play will get you out of it, not something you should mitigate entirely. We can't simply devalue offensive play in order to provide defense with an equal ground. Forward movement also drains your stamina via running.

Forward movement leads to 50/50 mix ups and pressure, which is what Mortal Kombat X revolves around. The risk of running is almost always worth the reward.

The point is that offense is currently extremely strong in Mortal Kombat X. Watch any grand finals of any major off-line event for evidence. Is buffing backdashes the absolute answer? I am not sure, but I believe that defense does need some type of buff.

For example, most of the top tier strategies that the community complains about (i.e., D'Vorah's f+1,1,2 xx GWC pressure, Erron Black's 2,1,1,2,2 pressure, Johnny Cage's b+1,2 pressure, Kung Lao's EX hat spin pressure, Quan Chi's EX rune pressure, etc.) can be fixed by reducing the resources of a block breaker rather than tediously normalizing the block frame advantage of every move.

But it's not JUST those that win matches.

Yes, they do. 50/50 mix ups and pressure win major off-line events in this game. When someone wins with Balanced Kenshi or Cybernetic Kano, I will stand corrected.

Tossing a couple of projectiles here and there is not zoning. Standing in the neutral game for two seconds before running is not footsies. These definitions of zoning and footsies are yours. Mine are very different.