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General/Other - Unbreakable Analysing Unbreakable

Vilén

too smart to play MKX
db1 being in this variant and being able to shatter your ice aura would be awesome.

I agree with this so hard.

That's about it though. I've been itching about that db1 FOREVER. I don't understand why the Aura didn't get bf3 as an input...

Overall, even with this post I'm hesitant to asks for buffs and tweaks because Sub-Zero is a pretty fuckin' decent character even without a variation.
 
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UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
db1 being in this variant and being able to shatter your ice aura would be awesome.

I agree with this so hard.

That's about it though. I've been itching about that db1 FOREVER. I don't understand why the Aura didn't get bf3 as an input...

Overall, even with this post I'm hesitant to asks for buffs and tweaks because Sub-Zero is a pretty fuckin' decent character even without a variation.
This isn't a buff thread, its a review of the variation.
 

aieches

#freeHomelee2016
every now and then i use subzero , i really like this variation but i agree with most of the OPs post. but All of the suggestions combined he'd prob be a bit op but dial some back a bit, and i think wed have a more viable threat in this version.

theres a few varations in this game that i think NRS watered down a bit too much and this one is one of the main ones. he's def fun to pay, but he is another high-risk// low-reward character. plus, hes mean to play with patience and reads, but does not get rewarded for his efforts in comparison to other cast for playing this way. . Simply put, this version is not scary at all for 90% of the cast .

i hope that they really take a good look at subzero in a whole and make the needed changes he needs rather than just listen to everyones bitching about how they cant deal with subzero, like with the clone thing. I dont really know if the clone nerf was good or bad in the long run, since i dont use subzero that frequently to determine that- BUT- i believe it was WAY too early to make that choice. Now we will never know , Thus i beleive he was hurt.. meanwhile nothing but scorpions and Kung jins with crazy hitboxes that can confirm into 35% easy peasy.. just sayin
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
My point is this.

Grand Master totally out shines his other variations, to the point that there is no reason to really use them over Grandmaster, although I like Cryo, Grand Master is too good in the corner to ignore.

This game has a variation system, and for most the cast, there is no need for them, you might as well remove them from the game.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
I think they key issue with the EX aura on this variation is the fact that damage reduction... Is already available to every character. If you break at the start of a big combo you are going to save yourself the same damage that you mitigate by eating the same combo 3 times, each time with EX Aura up, except even less reliable as you need to have put the Aura up before you get combo'd, and it can run out half way. EX Aura feels fundamentally flawed in a game or at the very least, much less useful in a game with breaker IMO, meaning picking this variation is really just for no-chip off the vanilla aura. So with this in mind, and the fact that GM builds meter faster, I feel like playing this character might be viable in MK9, but the fact that almost everyone has a 50/50 in MKX makes trying to block strings and needing about 5 successful punishes to kill, much riskier than playing all aspects of footsies and only needing 3 with Cryomancer, and the benefits to GM are pretty self evident. I feel like this variation is just flawed by design and will be hard to make worthwhile

I guess he makes a good counter to fisticuffs Johnny however
 
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UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
This variation could be made viable with a few changes to the aura and to a lesser extent, the parry.
Throw in a possible new string that has 3 hits and pushes back, non cancellable, get off me string. This should be about defence. It won't take much to make it viable.

With the Aura:
1 - He should have advantage from F4, B12, 12 and F42 into Aura cancel and allow combos to continue. (Considering Kung Lao currently does it with Tempest hat spins)
2 - The opponent shouldn't build meter for projectiles being blocked by Sub Zero. (It is supposes to stop zoning or turtling)
3 - MB Aura should buff his damage, and still scale the opponent damage, throw damage should be dropped to 6%, down from 8%. (Total Kahn gets this for free, no meter required)

Parry:
MB Version should parry jump ins. (A difference has to be make between the two)
Regular parry should recover instantly on a parried projectile, and build a small chunk of meter for a successful projectile parry.
 

huh

Mortal
I was a Kratos main in MK9, and I miss that 1 frame parry a lot. My entire gameplan revolved around that. I was looking for a character with a parry that can lead to a combo in MKX, and thought it was SZ unbreakable but apparently his parry is almost unusable compared to what I had with Kratos.

If the parry was 1 frame, IMO it would be the only think he needs to be viable and not broken. He can keep the low damage and be free to jump ins if the opponents have to respect the parry at all times when grounded.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
I was a Kratos main in MK9, and I miss that 1 frame parry a lot. My entire gameplan revolved around that. I was looking for a character with a parry that can lead to a combo in MKX, and thought it was SZ unbreakable but apparently his parry is almost unusable compared to what I had with Kratos.

If the parry was 1 frame, IMO it would be the only think he needs to be viable and not broken. He can keep the low damage and be free to jump ins if the opponents have to respect the parry at all times.
It's hard tho, land a parry you get 20% damage, whiff a parry they get full combo + JiP start (-73). The recovery needs to be changed for sure. His EX-Aura needs to be something other than a crappy way of spending meter as opposed to just breaking. At the moment he is fundamentally flawed. Sonya's parry is safer, leads to more damage, and is still better even though it doesn't block lows. Unbreakable could use fixes IMO once my opponents started getting better I started realising everything wrong with him.
 

Sage Leviathan

I'm platinum mad!
A single change that would make this variation viable?

**Build meter... while Aura is on... while blocking the opponent's moves.
A really, really tiny amount per hit. Something to fuel the use of EXAura.

God knows the only reason this variation uses meter is for breakers and EXIceball for long range punishers.
 

joeldm

Noob
Parry:
MB Version should parry jump ins. (A difference has to be make between the two)
Regular parry should recover instantly on a parried projectile, and build a small chunk of meter for a successful projectile parry.
He really need it.
MB Aura could function as Lex trait, it would give more meaning to the name of this variation.
 

Samsara

Resident Cynic
I honestly don't think NRS cares enough about there variation system to do it any justice. Many characters are faced with a single preferred variation and one 'iffy one.' They clearly didn't think their Kotal buffs through and I doubt Unbreakable will get any attention unless Subby mains get as whiny as the Kenshi players pre-patch and the current Kitana mains.

I cannot for the life of me understand their decision not to give what they dubbed the 'defensive' variation his ice burst/bomb. He can't reliably anti air with his d2 and he loses an excellent armored move that could lead into some stellar conversions. Aura is great but it essentially turns him into a more durable punching bag. He has poor damage and GM Subby offers better defensive play. The current state of this variation is disheartening.

There's no reason to play this variation outside of the ice mask. If they don't completely overhaul this variation then I can't they truly understand how lopsided and flawed their hyped up variation system was. It's a joke.
 

TheIrishFGCguy

Pew pew pew
I missed the Kombat Kast today but rumour has it that Predator's universal cloaking move is essentially just Unbreakable. I heard the regular is reduced chip while the EX is no chip.

If that's the case then that's another kick in the balls for this variation.
 

ZeZe

The smart stuff!
Way to go NRS! The Pred seams to have better trapping tool then grandmaster (because it looks like breathing or proximity doesn't effect if it comes out or not). And now every single Pred variation has what Unbreakable is all about plus far more damaging combos. As much as I love Sub and Pred, Hunter Pred seams to be better then Grandmaster (I think I saw traps dropped just like this under opponent when he was hugging the wall and they did not disappear!) and IS Unbreakable, which already was considered the weaker SZ variation. There I was hoping Unbreakable will be viable one day... Anyway, Pred wins.

 

Samsara

Resident Cynic
I know this isn't even a Reppy thread, but that character got a huge slap in the face as well. I've said it before: I think their variation system is too much for them to handle. They literally released a character who completely rendered two variations irrelevant (Deceptive and Unbreakable) and essentially created a clone (coincidence?...irony?...I don't care.) of Grandmaster with what appears to be inherently better tools. I'll have to wait and see about that one...
 

ZeZe

The smart stuff!
I respect NRS for not being afraid to test new stuff. I was also curious how variations will work out. But it's rather a failed project (as for now). Kind of cool it is here, as long as each character has at least one variation they can rely on. Sort of wished they just skipped variations in next MK game. Also NRS themselves, putting effort in creating all these choices and game development proving they have wasted their time ain't fun either.
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
They need to reach out the community players that constantly play the game and attended tournaments. They need perspective from the players.
 

matmusada

Lin Kuei Initiate
I respect NRS for not being afraid to test new stuff. I was also curious how variations will work out. But it's rather a failed project (as for now). Kind of cool it is here, as long as each character has at least one variation they can rely on. Sort of wished they just skipped variations in next MK game. Also NRS themselves, putting effort in creating all these choices and game development proving they have wasted their time ain't fun either.
I remember proposing to my friend that each character could have three variations a piece, however, make the third variation a mixture of the previous two. Something akin to Street Fighter's Ultra Combo Double feature.
 

matmusada

Lin Kuei Initiate
REVIEW: Update post KOTAL Buff*

Approach reading this like a review of something you are considering trying out, this isn't a buff post, it's basically a review.

I have really ground out Unbreakable as much as possible since release whilst playing other characters, and I am going to make some comparisons and criticisms of how the variation still needs rounded off.

Let me start by saying, I love the variation idea, I use it all the time, I love how different it is from every other variation in the game, but with the move sets that some characters have, and with serious time spent with what I feel is a true understanding of what is going on in the variation, it appears to just be a poor version of some current variations in the game, except it is just dressed differently.

This post is only to underline the criticisms I have, and last time I checked, this is a forum.

PARRY:
The parry in this game doesn't really work as well as you would think, as there are not a lot of string gaps to abuse traditionally in the cast, and because JIP 1 or 2 into 13/15 frame start up normals still chain without a gap, you can't really use it to great effect.

However, it is basically a mid hitting, free armoured move without the use of meter, but because it starts up in 6 frames, you still can't abuse it (Normal or MB) after his strings, most of which are -6, meaning most of the cast with 8 frame normals can still just string you anyway, and even if you think about using the MB version which is 3 frames, you can still be hit out of it, and when you can't threaten the parry after strings very well, then it becomes kind of useless, it can even be stuffed on wake up if you don't MB it, which means that even though it is unique as a move, it would never take priority over KL's MB spin, Sub Zero's MB Slide or Ice Blast, or Kung Jin's MB Spin (and its safe), this basically means that characters that don't have a parry, DO HAVE moves that equal it, it loses it's priority when selecting a character, and the fact that you have a parry diminishes.

For example, if you want to play totally defensive for competitive play, why choose Unbreakable when Tempest Lao beats it at every turn? Same with zoning, if you want to hard zone, why choose the 3rd or 4th best version in the game...

JUMP INS:
Even if you spend a bar of meter, the MB parry doesn't parry a jump in, where as Raiden's MB Shocker or Kung Lao's MB Spin will stop a jump in and still allow a combo, it will also be armoured.

So again, the parry becomes a worse version of something almost every character has, even with a bar spent.

RECOVERY:
The parry can also be used to stop projectiles and take no chip, although you get no meter if you successfully deflect a projectile.

Th recovery is huge! Once you deflect a projectile with the parry, you still sit in the recovery animation and allow opponents to run in and begin offence and in some cases punish you, so it takes no priority over basic commands that the entire cast has, such as jumping, crouching, or blocking...

It seems like you should be able to parry the move and recover straight out of the parry animation and have the opponent sit in the block disadvantage or recovery frames of the move while you move forward to gain an advantage, maybe even a parried projectile should give you a few chips of meter, really anything to reward you, because at this point, why even bother?

AURA:
While the aura takes no chip damage, which is a great feature, he really has no offence to couple the threat of it. He gains minimal advantage from F4 Aura, and thats it. No other string is safe or has advantage, none of his major strings allow this, B12, F42, 12, 123 etc.

The MB version takes less damage, but he can still receive 8% throws, if you are playing this variation, you are dealing with small percentage differences, getting thrown for 8% can be a big deal.

Other characters like Quan chi can use a portal to sit in armour while most of the cast can't really do anything to get him out of it without getting strings blown through and even combo links destroyed, and remember that it costs NO METER! so even though the aura move may seem quite unique, there are other versions of this move that are infinitely more powerful. Again...if you want to play uber defensively, why not just use Quan chi's Summoner? Unbreakable doesn't punish the opponent for rushing you down, it just encourages it, and when the parry isn't really reliable as a back up once they are in, it kind of defeats the purpose.

UPDATE*: If you read one thing, read this.
Kotal kahn has received a buff for his totem that completely destroys Unbreakable making it further more obsolete. This buff allows Kotal to bring out a totem in absolutely no time whatsoever, for TOTALLY free, requiring no meter to receive the same effect that the MA Aura has.

Kotal kahn can still opt to use his meter drain and damage boost totems instead of the chip and damage reduction totems at any point in the match, so when he has gathered the lead, he can put the opponent to bed easily with a damage totem and blood sacrifice, while Sub bags 30% for a jump in... this completely puts Unbreakable to bed...

WHY DOES AURA NOT NEGATE OPPONENT METER BUILDING?:
Something that makes me feel like I am not getting rewarded for blocking in this variation, is that the opponent receives the same normal meter building, while Sub Zero receives none for successful blocks. In my opinion, it would have been a good idea to possibly not allow the opponent to gain meter for having moves blocked while hitting an Aura activated Sub zero on block. This would allow Sub Zero to play his defensive play style as the opponent can't just turtle him and gain tons of meter because Sub Zero is using the Aura properties that he is given, no reward to returned. Yes, you take no chip, but you can barely do any in return, and the opponent receives meter for his troubles.

That last idea is a good idea, and would help the variation whilst making total sense, but there are many more directions this move could have went:

1. Meter build is increased from block strings.
2. Higher damage output.
3. Strings gain major block stun and advantage
4. With every blocked move, the opponent becomes slower for a short period of time, as if the aura is freezing them.
5. Aqua man trait properties with MB version.
6. My original though, the opponent builds no meter for successful blocks on Sub Zero.

If anyone played this variation against top players, they will see that it really lacks something to scare the opponent, you almost become like a punching bag that can't block forever (even if the variation forces you to do so), because in this variation, you literally have no other choice than to block, and like I said earlier, the parry doesn't really come to rescue and make up for offensive tool taken away, and while you block, the opponent just builds and builds.

Its not uncommon for characters that were already good in a specific variation to get fixed in other variations, like Shinnok, Kung Lao, and Quan Chi, so I don't understand how Unbreakable was passed so easily, maybe the Grandmaster out rage just shadowed over everything...

My bottom line opinion is that Unbreakable feels unfinished and a bit feels a bit like rolling an egg down a hill, even though it is a good idea, it is just a poor man's version of other variations in the game, but cleverly disguised as something else entirely.
As far as Unbreakable goes I don't see why NRS can't just make the aura have various levels of damage reduction more akin to Reptiles Stink Cloud.
-Have the first level be a constant damage reduction of a reasonable level
-Next is to change the command of the move to something simple such D,D, 1
-Give him back Ice Blast of course and make the command it's previous D, B, 1 command.

P.S. I LOVE the idea of no meter build as the exploding aura.