Jump Attacks vs AA in MKX (part 1)

[MadeFromMetal]

I'm saying d2 in this game are extremely strong unless your name is Jaqui Bae briggs

Lackey Torr's got a slow d2 that I haven't found a use for.

 

[Matador Fiend]

This whole jumping thing took me a bit to get into. In mk9 you could aa allll day with normals so you had to space propely and have your neutral game solid. In this game you can just jump around all day since aa sucks.

Its seems so scrubby but its so effective.

Kotal is kind of unfair to use as an example though because his j1 is nuts, its like f/t njp

 

[Tony at Home]

I get the whole risk reward thing, and I've admitted that jump ins are strong. I just think right now people are overreacting seeing as the game is still brand new. There's another couple things I want to address with what you're saying.

- trip guarding an opponent grants (in a lot of situations) a full combo. I think you're kind of under estimating the risk reward of AA in some situations. Yes it's difficult, but not impossible. I agree with what you're saying with active jump ins, but it's still an option.

- running under a jump in, or even dashing, is a legit way of dealing with jump ins, especially cross up jump ins. if you're looking for a jump in (which i think right now in this game we should all be doing that) it's a very plausible read to make.

- I'm sorry that for some reason you've decided that you shouldn't have to spend a resource to AA effectively. That being said, in the current meta, it seems to be the case. Accept it as part of the game and adjust.

- "I shouldn't have to NJP to AA". Again this is your personal opinion on how the game should be played that I think is holding you back. NJPs are strong to deal with jump ins, use it and profit, whether you like it or not.

- When I said specials, there are raw specials that AA well in this game.

@SaltShaker I don't know exactly what you meant in your post, but i get that you're saying that jump ins are strong because of what you get out of them. You play Jacqui, which by default means I like you. So let's just agree to disagree.

I think you have good points, but I still think you are approaching this as if D2's are bad by design, and jump ins are ridiculous by design. It's very clear that D2's were made to be very effective anti-airs. Hell, it's a huge part of MK in general (TOASTY!). But D2's aren't working.

I don't think D2's are trading with cleanly-AA's jumped ins for mediocre results because NRS thought that was a swell idea, I think it's because the engine the game was built on didn't plan for a clear priority system like you get in games like KI.

It's clearly not a good idea for a clean D2 to have to trade with a jump in when the person who used the D2 did literally everything right. I understand their are parts of the meta people are going to have to adjust to, but I'm not saying "this is what the meta should be", I'm saying "this is what the meta of D2's was supposed to be, and it's broken- it's just not working."

It's like in Injustice, NRS didn't want D2's to be horrible. They just came out that way, and when we brought it up, they fixed it. Hopefully they are looking into doing the same thing again

 

[Prinz]

I would just like to state that Johnny Cage's uppercut is one of the worst uppercuts I have EVER seen lol

So was Smoke's in MK9.
This thread is debatable. The only thing objective here is Kotal has a godlike ji1 and a bad uppercut. But he has an aa grab.

 

[Ecodus]

It's like in Injustice, NRS didn't want D2's to be horrible. They just came out that way, and when we brought it up, they fixed it. Hopefully they are looking into doing the same thing again

I think we agree on a lot. and we both bring up valid points. Just remember what the D2 buff in Injustice did to some characters (Re: Bane).

I just hope we can flesh this game out more before we start diving into buffs/nerfs is all.

 

[Wigy]

I get the whole risk reward thing, and I've admitted that jump ins are strong. I just think right now people are overreacting seeing as the game is still brand new. There's another couple things I want to address with what you're saying.

- trip guarding an opponent grants (in a lot of situations) a full combo. I think you're kind of under estimating the risk reward of AA in some situations. Yes it's difficult, but not impossible. I agree with what you're saying with active jump ins, but it's still an option.

- running under a jump in, or even dashing, is a legit way of dealing with jump ins, especially cross up jump ins. if you're looking for a jump in (which i think right now in this game we should all be doing that) it's a very plausible read to make.

- I'm sorry that for some reason you've decided that you shouldn't have to spend a resource to AA effectively. That being said, in the current meta, it seems to be the case. Accept it as part of the game and adjust.

- "I shouldn't have to NJP to AA". Again this is your personal opinion on how the game should be played that I think is holding you back. NJPs are strong to deal with jump ins, use it and profit, whether you like it or not.

- When I said specials, there are raw specials that AA well in this game.

@SaltShaker I don't know exactly what you meant in your post, but i get that you're saying that jump ins are strong because of what you get out of them. You play Jacqui, which by default means I like you. So let's just agree to disagree.

Running under is again, a tricky and risky strategy especially against characters who have air specials.

I think that people are annoyed that the risk reward is heavily skewed for something that requires 0 execution, meter or stamina.

I can only see this taking away from making this game more skill and execution orientated.

 

[Sami]

WTB good jump-in punches for Mileena.

 

[Tony at Home]

So was Smoke's in MK9.
This thread is debatable. The only thing objective here is Kotal has a godlike ji1 and a bad uppercut. But he has an aa grab.

I've made a pretty strong effort to show that it's not just Kotal, but universally everyone has wonked jump attacks, and wonked D2's to deal with them. I main Sonya, so I used her. I used to main Kotal, so I used him. I used Sub Zero because I just mashed "enter" on the select character menu once.

I'm confident I could go through every single character in the game and find an instance of this happening:

I mean, is anyone going to argue my Sonya did something wrong in this picture? Clearly, we're both making contact with each other, but his air attack is beating out my anti-air. In other examples, like the Kotal vs Sonya, I'm showing even in not-completely-wonked situations it's too hard for the effort, and it certainly shouldn't TRADE.

I pretty much just picked the characters randomly to show jump ins in general were beating out D2's, and not just specific characters. The only characters I purposely avoided where ones who SPECIFICALLY were designed to stuff attempts to anti-air them. I'm being pretty conservative about this.

 

[Prinz]

I've made a pretty strong effort to show that it's not just Kotal, but universally everyone has wonked jump attacks, and wonked D2's to deal with them. I main Sonya, so I used her. I used to main Kotal, so I used him. I used Sub Zero because I just mashed "enter" on the select character menu once.

I'm confident I could go through every single character in the game and find an instance of this happening:

I mean, is anyone going to argue my Sonya did something wrong in this picture? Clearly, we're both making contact with each other, but his air attack is beating out my anti-air. In other examples, like the Kotal vs Sonya, I'm showing even in not-completely-wonked situations it's too hard for the effort, and it certainly shouldn't TRADE.

I pretty much just picked the characters randomly to show jump ins in general were beating out D2's, and not just specific characters. The only characters I purposely avoided where ones who SPECIFICALLY were designed to stuff attempts to anti-air them. I'm being pretty conservative about this.

I've never seen Sonya's d2 fail in tournament setting. Level up.
The fact that you put effort into proving your point is doing you no favors at all actually.

 

[Tony at Home]

I've kind of avoided doing this, but here we go, two specific changes that I think would make the system better.

1) D2's do not trade with Air attacks. When you hit someone with a d2, and they are in the air, the anti-air outprioritizes the air. Clean 14%. No trades.

2) Universal active-frame buff to D2's. Not startup, not more + on block, just more active frames. If the hitbox lingers out there a bit longer (even 2 extra frames would help) it will result in alot less stuffed D2's that are otherwise perfectly done.

 

[Deyrax]

I've kind of avoided doing this, but here we go, two specific changes that I think would make the system better.

1) D2's do not trade with Air attacks. When you hit someone with a d2, and they are in the air, the anti-air outprioritizes the air. Clean 14%. No trades.

I think only anti-air special moves (upballs, etc..) should have invincibility against air attacks.

 

[Tony at Home]

I think only anti-air special moves (upballs, etc..) should have invincibility against air attacks.

I agree.

But this is not invincibility, it's out-prioritization. Meaning if they hit at the same time, the AA wins.

Jump ins would still stuff an AA that is too early, or too late, they just wouldn't work against an AA that is timed correctly. Invincibility would be like AA-ing with Sonya's EX Arc Kick, where she can do it early, and it will absorb/go right through the jump in and still work.

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

I think only anti-air special moves (upballs, etc..) should have invincibility against air attacks.

why not d2s?
in Arcsys games every character pretty much has a normal/special that has head-invulnerability, meaning the top part of the body is invincible to air moves. Some still suck coz of their hitbox/speed/other factors but at least you don't eat shit for making the correct reading and using your anti-air against an air move >__>

 

[DubiousShenron]

You forgot to mention that the hurt boxes on AAs extended past the hurt box which I cannot even fathom and jumpins have no hurtbox at all. It is absolutely retarded -- it's really my breaking point for this game. Also jump ins are faster than AAs so they are beat out in the speed category too.

Just prime examples of how these games will never be respected as fundamentally good fighters. I thought jumping in injustice was retarded but my god NRD you've truly outdone yourselfs. If you want to AA play Dvorah because her hurtbox doesn't go past her freaking hitbox

Do not even get me started on njps in this game.

The biggest mistake they made was giving characters unique jumpins. They have no idea what the hell they're doing

Typical of all NRS games, the worse player is rewarded

Jumping>>>

 

[KillaGthug4Life]

Uppercut is a great AA, spacing is the best AA because ji1 or ji2 is very punishable on whiff. Watch matches with Cassie, she obliterates people who empty jump.

I'm more concerned about the lack of abuility to stop crossups and being able to trip guard. That concerns me because for characters who have a slow NJP, there is really no way to anti crossup other than armor. Also, jump ins are loopy and you hang in the air more, giving you more time to counter with NJP, upper cut, or ji1.

 

[Harlequin969]

What if we got a balance patch that made D2's more consistent and useful, similar to what happened back in IGU. D2's weren't buff damage wise I believe, they were just made a lot more reliable as tools and aa's. I could be wrong about that but it seems like a decent solution.

 

[Deyrax]

I agree.

But this is not invincibility, it's out-prioritization. Meaning if they hit at the same time, the AA wins.

Jump ins would still stuff an AA that is too early, or too late, they just wouldn't work against an AA that is timed correctly. Invincibility would be like AA-ing with Sonya's EX Arc Kick, where she can do it early, and it will absorb/go right through the jump in and still work.

Does this game really have a move priority system ?

 

[Wigy]

Uppercut is a great AA, spacing is the best AA because ji1 or ji2 is very punishable on whiff. Watch matches with Cassie, she obliterates people who empty jump.

I'm more concerned about the lack of abuility to stop crossups and being able to trip guard. That concerns me because for characters who have a slow NJP, there is really no way to anti crossup other than armor. Also, jump ins are loopy and you hang in the air more, giving you more time to counter with NJP, upper cut, or ji1.

Maybe in other games, in this game u just magnet to the floor.

 

[Tony at Home]

Does this game really have a move priority system ?

Im not sure. But I'd like one if possible.

 

[Deyrax]

Im not sure. But I'd like one if possible.

I really don't think there is one. Maybe just increase the hitbox of uppercuts and remove phantom hitboxes of jump ins ?

 

[Name v.5.0]

All I can say is FUCK Sonya and her Ji1. it's got a great hitbox and has 16 active frames. That's the most active jump punch in the game. The next one is Raiden with 11 active frames. Does someone want to tell me why Sonya gets to be Jesus in the air, while characters like Liu Kang and Johnny Cage have 4 active frames on their JI1s?

She can cross you over for days and since you cant anti air her, she gets free 50/50. It's ridiculous and it's why I'm a huge advocate of a universal D2 buff like IGAU got. I'm so sick of this shit.

 

[PaletteSwap]

Answer:

Give every character Cryomancer Sub-Zero's d2.

 

[big j gleez]

Uppercuts are so overpowered lol. So many other things antiair as well. Armor moves can lead to full combo. There is a lot of risk while jumping. Also, many times the attacks don't come out when you jump in unless the jump in is pretty well timed. You can also D4 with a lot of characters and cause a whiff. I dont see this as an issue honestly.

 

[Eldriken]

Uppercuts are so overpowered lol. So many other things antiair as well. Armor moves can lead to full combo. There is a lot of risk while jumping. Also, many times the attacks don't come out when you jump in unless the jump in is pretty well timed. You can also D4 with a lot of characters and cause a whiff. I dont see this as an issue honestly.

You play Scorpion. Your "I beat everything" j3 gives no fucks about AAs. =P

 

[Wigy]

Uppercuts are so overpowered lol. So many other things antiair as well. Armor moves can lead to full combo. There is a lot of risk while jumping. Also, many times the attacks don't come out when you jump in unless the jump in is pretty well timed. You can also D4 with a lot of characters and cause a whiff. I dont see this as an issue honestly.

A lot of the cast have slow-ish or terrible hitbox uppercuts.

ferratorr struggles to antiair, i just end up spamming d1, but then characters with good jump in's can read that an JK into air specials (scorpion etc)

also you shouldn't NEED armoured specials to get out of something that goes 3/4 screen with some characters and starts a combo.