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Jump Attacks vs AA in MKX (part 1)

"Waits for @Tony at Home to play against a Tanya for part 2"
Im actually specifically avoiding characters that seem designed to be super hard to AA. I never liked it, but if NRS designs a character to be hard to anti-air, well that's what they should be.

I'm using characters with average jump ins and average anti-airs to illustrate that at a base level, Anti-Air's don't even work as the fundamental defense they were intended to be. Yeah, it's pretty naturally I'm going to have a difficult time anti-airing a character that can go a million different ways in the air, instant dive kick my face, or do an extra little float like Kitana- but that's by design.

I'm more concerned when an average d2 can't AA an average jump in because the hitboxes and active frames just aren't good enough to do their intended job.
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
There are only a few jump in attacks that I feel are overly good in this game. The characters that have these have them for a reason, such as Kung Lao, he has a ridiculous jump in 2 to compensate for a ground game were he can't really just move forward and it makes sense for his general play style, but for Sub Zero, it doesn't, he has no need for a boss jump in, but he has it anyway.

1. Kung Lao
2. Kotal
3. Sonya
4. Sub Zero
5. Kenshi J1

However, I don't see too many strings that pushback on block and set up an opportunity for the opponent to hang themselves with a jump in.
 
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Temjiin

www.mkxframedata.com
There are only a few jump in attacks that I feel are overly good in this game. The characters that have these have them for a reason, such as Kung Lao, he has a ridiculous jump in 2 to compensate for a ground game were he can't really just move forward and it makes sense for his general play style, but for Sub Zero, it doesn't, he has no need for a boss jump in, but he has it anyway.

1. Kung Lao
2. Kotal
3. Sonya
4. Sub Zero
5. Kenshi J1

However, I don't see too many strings that pushback on block and set up an opportunity for the opponent to hang themselves with a jump in.
You anti aired me with a jab earlier, impressive.
 

Ecodus

I ain't got time to bleed.
Jump ins in this game are strong, there is no doubt, but the game is less than two months old so lets hold off on the whole buff AA/Nerf jump ins thing until we get better at playing the game.

like @HoneyBee was saying, when I'm watching high level play, top 8s at majors for example, player's aren't getting away with the trampoline style play. In fact players who are having a lot of success are dealing with people who jump a lot and punishing them well.

There are definitely options to deal with jump ins, maybe just not obvious ones or ones that work in our current mind set. We should stop comparing MKX to IGAU and MK9, they are different games with different mechanics.

This whole free 50/50 thing off a jump ins is silly too, as far as I know, OH and Lows don't always jail on jump ins, which means you can armor out (sorry Quan chi). Maybe its time people get in the lab and start practicing reversals instead of coming on TYM to QQ about anti airs.

other options to deal with jump ins that I use are:

- spacing/footsies
- Trip guarding
- Run under jump ins
- Standing normals
- Specials
- Armor
- NJP
- D2

All Online arguments to me are invalid. Sorry, but if NRS started balancing the game based on online, it would ruin the game offline.

Edit: (part below in bold)
@Eldriken Jacqui's D2 isn't great, but she has strong AA with up rocket, 4u4 and even standing 1. That, along with her insane mobility, makes her somewhat difficult to jump in on.
 
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Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Jacqui has to deal with jump ins by walking back and trip guarding, or pre-emptive db2. Her d2 is absolutely shocking. Whenever I get it I know it's an input error and I meant either df2 or db2. Against cross up jumps she has to make a read and dash forward. s1 should be a good anti-air,I just can't get it to work consistently.

I don't have this problem with Cassie because with her d2 and flip kick I can basically anti-air anything.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Jump ins in this game are strong, there is no doubt, but the game is less than two months old so lets hold off on the whole buff AA/Nerf jump ins thing until we get better at playing the game.

like @HoneyBee was saying, when I'm watching high level play, top 8s at majors for example, player's aren't getting away with the trampoline style play. In fact players who are having a lot of success are dealing with people who jump a lot and punishing them well.

There are definitely options to deal with jump ins, maybe just not obvious ones or ones that work in our current mind set. We should stop comparing MKX to IGAU and MK9, they are different games with different mechanics.

This whole free 50/50 thing off a jump ins is silly too, as far as I know, OH and Lows don't always jail on jump ins, which means you can armor out (sorry Quan chi). Maybe its time people get in the lab and start practicing reversals instead of coming on TYM to QQ about anti airs.

other options to deal with jump ins that I use are:

- spacing/footsies
- Trip guarding
- Run under jump ins
- Standing normals
- Specials
- Armor
- NJP
- D2

All Online arguments to me are invalid. Sorry, but if NRS started balancing the game based on online, it would ruin the game offline.

@Eldriken Jacqui's D2 isn't great, but she has very strong AA with up rocket, 4u4 and even standing 1. That, along with her insane mobility, makes her very difficult to jump in on. No more QQ from you!
The reason why you don't notice is because you don't see it often, even though it constantly happens? Don't understand? Ok I'll explain. Since all it takes is one jip landed to turn it into a full combo from a 50/50 into a wall carry and half the health is gone, you may only see a couple of jump ins per round from each character. That doesn't make them less overpowered, it's just that the potential result from jumping in is so great that it limits the amount of times you see it.

If they lead to 10% that'd be one thing, but there's absolutely no reason not to jump in against most characters.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Im actually specifically avoiding characters that seem designed to be super hard to AA. I never liked it, but if NRS designs a character to be hard to anti-air, well that's what they should be.

I'm using characters with average jump ins and average anti-airs to illustrate that at a base level, Anti-Air's don't even work as the fundamental defense they were intended to be. Yeah, it's pretty naturally I'm going to have a difficult time anti-airing a character that can go a million different ways in the air, instant dive kick my face, or do an extra little float like Kitana- but that's by design.

I'm more concerned when an average d2 can't AA an average jump in because the hitboxes and active frames just aren't good enough to do their intended job.
you say that now...
 
- spacing/footsies
I can't have constant control of where I am in anticipation of a jump that may or may not come. It's helpful to whiff punish a jump, but I can't ALWAYS be right outside my opponents jump range. Many times an opponent is going to jump at me at a range where I can just back out of it.

- Trip guarding
I actually went over this. Alot of jumping attacks have REALLY long active hitboxes. It's not uncommon for jump backs to remain active until the opponent hits the ground. This means you have to delay your tripguard too much to avoid getting hit by the residual active frames, at which point your 12+ frame advancing normal won't punish anything.

- Run under jump ins
This won't happen on reaction

- Specials
- Armor
I shouldn't have to spend meter to anti-air if I've spaced everything properly. I really feel like my D2 smacking the opponent in the face should be sufficient.

I shouldn't have to do this. At this point it then becomes pretty much a guessing game as to if the opponent is going to press their button before or after yours.

I refer to the air-to-air meta-game as "Jump Jousting". Everyone just jumps in the air, and hopes their punch comes out first.

- Standing normals

Even if your D2 is successful, you are going to net 9% after the trade is counted for, after risking taking 30%+ damage.


I mean, they're all good suggestions in certain situations, but it only serves the point that
1) Anti-airing is EXTREMELY more difficult, and less reliable than jump ins.
2) For that extreme risk, there's EXTREMELY less reward for winning against the jumper.

When you think of it, even when certain suggestion like "D2" actually work, you need to hit 4 of these successfully, just to justify missing 1 and getting full-combo'd because the damage advantage after a trade is severely lack luster.
 

TrulyAmiracle

Loud and Klear~
Honestly against most characters my go to anti-air is to meet them air to air with a ji1/2 or jump back 3/4, which is fuckin stupid coz against the characters with crazy good jump-ins (fuckin Kotal's ji1) you'll lose most of the time and get a combo for it.

Jump ins have a retarded amount of active frames and so many of them have gigantic hitboxes that are drawn by a preschooler for whatever reason so they can just go ham. Like seriously some of them are not even close to matching the move's animation ~___~

It's still early in the game but I think at some point they need to do a universal d2 buff like they did with injustice, and like cut the jump in normal's active frames by a big amount.
You should not be able to do a normal at the peak of your godamn jump and have it active all the way till it connects with the grounded opponent, which is easier in this game as well thanks to the magical 'drop as soon as you touch them' mechanic, whoever's bright fuckin idea that was.. god forbid that you actually have to time your jump-ins and not just bounce around and hit buttons with no thought or timing. That's just beyond dumb imo, some scrubby ass nonsense yet it covers your approach from air-to-airs and grounded anti-airs.. skill!
 

Wigy

There it is...
Honestly against most characters my go to anti-air is to meet them air to air with a ji1/2 or jump back 3/4, which is fuckin stupid coz against the characters with crazy good jump-ins (fuckin Kotal's ji1) you'll lose most of the time and get a combo for it.

Jump ins have a retarded amount of active frames and so many of them have gigantic hitboxes that are drawn by a preschooler for whatever reason so they can just go ham. Like seriously some of them are not even close to matching the move's animation ~___~

It's still early in the game but I think at some point they need to do a universal d2 buff like they did with injustice, and like cut the jump in normal's active frames by a big amount.
You should not be able to do a normal at the peak of your godamn jump and have it active all the way till it connects with the grounded opponent, which is easier in this game as well thanks to the magical 'drop as soon as you touch them' mechanic, whoever's bright fuckin idea that was.. god forbid that you actually have to time your jump-ins and not just bounce around and hit buttons with no thought or timing. That's just beyond dumb imo, some scrubby ass nonsense yet it covers your approach from air-to-airs and grounded anti-airs.. skill!
TruthHasBeenSpoken.JPG

Kotals jump in has a the hitbox of MK9 lao divekick, and its +on block, and for an air to air he gets 35%ish percent conversion, on ground like 40ish 1 bar combos.

I know hes not strong in other department but it doesn't excuse him having a 3/4 screen broken ass move.
 

Ecodus

I ain't got time to bleed.
I can't have constant control of where I am in anticipation of a jump that may or may not come. It's helpful to whiff punish a jump, but I can't ALWAYS be right outside my opponents jump range. Many times an opponent is going to jump at me at a range where I can just back out of it.


I actually went over this. Alot of jumping attacks have REALLY long active hitboxes. It's not uncommon for jump backs to remain active until the opponent hits the ground. This means you have to delay your tripguard too much to avoid getting hit by the residual active frames, at which point your 12+ frame advancing normal won't punish anything.


This won't happen on reaction


I shouldn't have to spend meter to anti-air if I've spaced everything properly. I really feel like my D2 smacking the opponent in the face should be sufficient.


I shouldn't have to do this. At this point it then becomes pretty much a guessing game as to if the opponent is going to press their button before or after yours.

I refer to the air-to-air meta-game as "Jump Jousting". Everyone just jumps in the air, and hopes their punch comes out first.




Even if your D2 is successful, you are going to net 9% after the trade is counted for, after risking taking 30%+ damage.


I mean, they're all good suggestions in certain situations, but it only serves the point that
1) Anti-airing is EXTREMELY more difficult, and less reliable than jump ins.
2) For that extreme risk, there's EXTREMELY less reward for winning against the jumper.

When you think of it, even when certain suggestion like "D2" actually work, you need to hit 4 of these successfully, just to justify missing 1 and getting full-combo'd because the damage advantage after a trade is severely lack luster.
I get the whole risk reward thing, and I've admitted that jump ins are strong. I just think right now people are overreacting seeing as the game is still brand new. There's another couple things I want to address with what you're saying.

- trip guarding an opponent grants (in a lot of situations) a full combo. I think you're kind of under estimating the risk reward of AA in some situations. Yes it's difficult, but not impossible. I agree with what you're saying with active jump ins, but it's still an option.

- running under a jump in, or even dashing, is a legit way of dealing with jump ins, especially cross up jump ins. if you're looking for a jump in (which i think right now in this game we should all be doing that) it's a very plausible read to make.

- I'm sorry that for some reason you've decided that you shouldn't have to spend a resource to AA effectively. That being said, in the current meta, it seems to be the case. Accept it as part of the game and adjust.

- "I shouldn't have to NJP to AA". Again this is your personal opinion on how the game should be played that I think is holding you back. NJPs are strong to deal with jump ins, use it and profit, whether you like it or not.

- When I said specials, there are raw specials that AA well in this game.

@SaltShaker I don't know exactly what you meant in your post, but i get that you're saying that jump ins are strong because of what you get out of them. You play Jacqui, which by default means I like you. So let's just agree to disagree.