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Fear of the Patching Style (AKA Why it Might Not Make Sense to Upplay)

RYX

BIG PUSHER
What exactly is the point to the topic? I mean it's all so charmingly "eloquented" and everything but where's the meat? For this theory to work there would have to have been a "good" character made "great", please point me to that/those characters...

Otherwise you're just implying people should just stfu and take it if their character is bad. Jelly dressed in a suit is still jelly.
post-first buff bane given more buffs is a perfect example
 

Mortal Komhat

Worst Well-Established Goro Player Ever
this is like someone just read pascal's bet and decided to apply it to the patch cycle in an attempt to have a point.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
This all occurred to me as I was reading the hot fix notes and recalled the perhaps cautionary Grundy/Bane debacle during IGAU's patching phase, where many (myself as a Grundy main included) consistently asserted that the character was in no need of being buffed, and was capable of fighting the cast at large. Meanwhile, the entire community called Bane a laughing stock even as he was buffed each patch, leaving us the final definitive edition of the game with a terrifying monster in Bane and a garbage could-have-been-good character in Grundy which may (keyword: may) have been due to the fact that the community was vocal about Bane being bad and Grundy being good early on.
We didn't ask for this. If you wish to blame someone, blame yourselves.
 

Mortal Komhat

Worst Well-Established Goro Player Ever
also just look at shazam patch history and see that essentially the downplaying was mad strong, and yet his buffs were booty.

or y'know stryker

or any of the other shitters that never got buffed proper.

buffs come and go. get better and even you can win with a low ass tier.
 
post-first buff bane given more buffs is a perfect example
Hmm I was thinking This game but I can see the point, and where is the comparative "perfectly capable" character in this game who got strong buffs in mkx?

Bane was not an example exclusive to any particular style of patching, characters are over buffed in every game genre that includes balancing. Hell even the game Evolve has seen characters being made a bit too strong/a bit too weak and they use Telemetry Data over long periods that show character w/l ratio, damage etc in addition to fan input.

The most important thing is that games *remain* patch supported a bit longer than IGAU was so that over reactions can be corrected.
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
Most characters in the game have either 7 or 8 frame pokes. 6 frames is VERY uncommon, unlike MK9. Also, roll is an 8-frame launcher that travels nowhere near as fast as Reptile's dash. Not saying that's "fair", but that they serve different purposes entirely.

It's whatever...he isn't as fast as the rest, but that was also the case in MK9. That's how they want him designed, and it honestly works.

And with a bar, Reptile covers the damage from a 50/50 part. He's meter reliant, but he's been that way since MK9, as well.
They serve different purposes but Mileena has other tools to cover for what Reptile can do with dash. Besides, Elbow Dash now has 10f of recovery on whiff and with the inclusion of the Run mechanic, it no longer is a beast of a mobility tool that it was in MK9.

It also doesn't change the fact that Reptile still can't safely counterpoke when Mileena and the Takahashi family now can despite those characters having tools that are on the same level if not better than Reptile's.
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
Are you actually saying this? His overhead is 11 frames, and his low is about 15 frames if I'm not mistaking. This means he's "basically" a 50/50 character as I doubt our eyes could even react to such fast moves. He seems like a hard character to use, but I see the tools.


It was a fair trade. B1 used to get intercepted everytime, now it's got a nice speed. Then they made B1, 4 slightly negative, at least still safe. I would have still preferred an overhead instead, but this will increase her pressure for sure.
Like I said before, unless you're in the corner, his 50/50s are not very scary. 30% for one bar with average corner carry as opposed to what everyone else can do.
 

LRK128

TEST - YOU'RE WHITE!
Here we are, Tanya is set to be released (or is already released for some), and we are left with a ledger of hot fix notes, and I can't help but notice a trend here: The character communities that were the most vocal and consistent have received the most positive change. Whether it was the Kitana community from Day 0 squawking that their character was bottom 1 free, or @Pig Of The Hut's constant assertions that Kenshi was not even allowed to play the same game as the rest of the cast, or non-War God Kotal Kahns (shoutouts to @RYX) complaining that their character was never even given a fair chance to use his tools before they were ruined, it appears to me that the more communities vocalize themselves the greater positive influence there was on their characters in the recent hot fix.

"But juice, you're so handsome! Also, what's your point?"

I'm not here to argue that any of these communities were wrong about their characters prior to these changes, but rather to examine whether or not there is any disadvantage to constantly mentioning how short-handed your character is versus the cast at large. It would appear that any impact at all would be recorded as positive changes with no kind of negative repercussion connected to loudly and proudly asserting that your character needs help. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, after all, and some lesser used variations with less vocal communities have yet to be touched.

Now, I know what you're thinking:

"juice, you don't believe that Paulo or NRS are actively concerned with what is being posted on the forums or in stream chats, twitter, etc, do you? That myth died with the low gunshots normalization!"

Even if that were true (once again, I have no concrete evidence to prove or disprove that there is any sort of correlation), what difference does it make? If there is an active influence, you can theoretically help create a more powerful version of your character in the long run. If there isn't, you lose nothing in the long run and have your bets hedged, just in case.

"Well, Mr. Thinks-He-Knows-A-Lot, if you don't have any proof, where is your theory coming from?"

This all occurred to me as I was reading the hot fix notes and recalled the perhaps cautionary Grundy/Bane debacle during IGAU's patching phase, where many (myself as a Grundy main included) consistently asserted that the character was in no need of being buffed, and was capable of fighting the cast at large. Meanwhile, the entire community called Bane a laughing stock even as he was buffed each patch, leaving us the final definitive edition of the game with a terrifying monster in Bane and a garbage could-have-been-good character in Grundy which may (keyword: may) have been due to the fact that the community was vocal about Bane being bad and Grundy being good early on.

Thusly, I conclude: Is there truly any advantage to upplaying a character during the early phases of an NRS game? If you play a bad character, you could get them the help they need to compete. If you play a good character, you could make them a great one. Or you could cause nothing at all to happen, but why take a chance and be left with a lesser character permanently by the time NRS moves on to their next project?
Time to downplay like hell, probably will get myself featured in the salt report
 

Swindle

Philanthropist & Asshole
It was a fair trade. B1 used to get intercepted everytime, now it's got a nice speed. Then they made B1, 4 slightly negative, at least still safe. I would have still preferred an overhead instead, but this will increase her pressure for sure.
lol, theory fighting 101
 

Awkward Sloth

Lamest Harley, still better sloth than Jer
I've been saying since pre release that Tanya needs buffs but no one will listen.

I guess I need to be an Evo runner up for my buffs to get acknowledged. :(

Or had played the Flash in Injustice.

I did play Mileena for like 3 days though so I guess I used up all my buff requests on her. Aww man. :c
 

Alright RyRy

Florida Kombat
The Goro community thinks he is fine, but yet nobody uses him. I seem to be the only one complaining about that character. But I just picked a new character and moved on.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Buff all my characters. (Cassie, Reptile, Sonya, and Sub)

Nerf everyone else's. :p

Serioulsy though, I do think reptile needs buffs.
 

qspec

Mortal
Meh.
Mileena has other tools to cover for what Reptile can do with dash.
Like?

I actually moved over to Reptile because Mileena was so shitty. Any issue you think you have with Reptile is (potentially was) actually worse with Mileena. He's got forward moving normals that allow him to cover ground and punish. He's got a lot of fantastic pokes that are safe or mostly safe (b3 which can be done as b34 which is a lovely though low reward oki option for destroying armor).

Mileena's issue isn't just slow start-up or recovery. It is both with a heavy handed dash of no-range. The only, and I truly mean only, thing that is keeping her viable right now is the OSs which allow her to bypass guesswork on using her stupidly punishable roll.

Reptile's only weakness on my view is lowish abarre damage, but really who gives a shit. He has plenty of decent options at neutral.
 

mercureXI

Punching bag that throws fans !
How can't you be vocal when you are a Kitana main ?

Might wanna consider the fact that sometimes, if there are a LOT of people asking for adjustements on a character, (surprise) it might be because that character is indeed pretty bad.

Still don't understand the changes : b1 being faster is nice, but low option no longer creates opportunities on block, and her d1 is still fucking -10 on block.

They should just adjust that horrible d1 (less startup, less block disadvantage, like ... most d1), change f2 to overhead. And that's it.

Or if they want to keep her with poor poking options, at least give her EX rising fans some combo starter possibilities (cancel into float).

At the moment, her zoning game is easily bypassed thanks to teleports or just duck-run, she can't really poke at all (it's clear when you pick up and try Tanya for 10sec, and you tell yourself "damn I wish I had that poke" lol), and her wakeup game is pitiful (unsafe, no combo starter on any armor move, why fear 10% damage ?)
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
With the Raiden f1 nerf and this thought here, it seems there is so much tech to NRS patches. Can't way to test this out for all new matchups!!!!! . . . .lol
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
Meh.


Like?

I actually moved over to Reptile because Mileena was so shitty. Any issue you think you have with Reptile is (potentially was) actually worse with Mileena. He's got forward moving normals that allow him to cover ground and punish. He's got a lot of fantastic pokes that are safe or mostly safe (b3 which can be done as b34 which is a lovely though low reward oki option for destroying armor).

Mileena's issue isn't just slow start-up or recovery. It is both with a heavy handed dash of no-range. The only, and I truly mean only, thing that is keeping her viable right now is the OSs which allow her to bypass guesswork on using her stupidly punishable roll.

Reptile's only weakness on my view is lowish abarre damage, but really who gives a shit. He has plenty of decent options at neutral.
Low damage
Shit projectiles

Slow normals (that are safe, yes) that can't pressure with unless in the corner
Slow pokes
Meter-dependant

Builds meter very slowly
No viable AA
No Viable air-game


Those highlighted in blue are Reptile's problems that Mileena doesn't have. They would be more alike pre-hotfix but yea...
 

Yoaks

A spaceman
Low damage
Shit projectiles

Slow normals (that are safe, yes) that can't pressure with unless in the corner
Slow pokes
Meter-dependant

Builds meter very slowly
No viable AA
No Viable air-game


Those highlighted in blue are Reptile's problems that Mileena doesn't have. They would be more alike pre-hotfix but yea...
Your d1 is 9f!!! And actually has reach! Her d1 even with this Hotfix still sucks. Ya 9f startup on a poke that whiffs on people crouch blocking when I'm right in your face. Awesome.

Reptile's d1 (9f has decent range) and d3 (9f okay range) compared to Mileenas d1 (9f. Zero range. Whiffs on you point blank when your blocking) and d3 (10f slightly better range).

GTFO with this Mileena has better pokes nonsense.

You also have safe 50/50's while Mileenas are not.
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
Your d1 is 9f!!! And actually has reach! Her d1 even with this Hotfix still sucks. Ya 9f startup on a poke that whiffs on people crouch blocking when I'm right in your face. Awesome.

Reptile's d1 (9f has decent range) and d3 (9f okay range) compared to Mileenas d1 (9f. Zero range. Whiffs on you point blank when your blocking) and d3 (10f slightly better range).

GTFO with this slow poke nonsense.

You also have safe 50/50's while Mileenas are not.
Reptile's 50/50s is as safe as Mileena's. Only with OSes. And 9f is not fast enough, that's exactly the gap between Raiden's blocked F12 and F1. In that situation, Mileena can at least low profile with roll and net a full combo, Reversal Elbow Dash gets him what? techable knockdown...yay...