Analyze This Match: REO vs. Dizzy at Combo Breaker 2015

[CrimsonShadow]

It's time! To kick off TYM's match analysis forum, we have one of the most closely-contested and tightly-fought matches of the tournament: the REO v. Dizzy set in Winners Top 8.

The goal of this subforum is to be able to break these matches down, in order to determine what worked, what didn't work, and what can be learned from the footage. So to kick it off with this match, here are some examples of questions that can be answered:

-What were particularly effective strategies and tactics for either player?
-What could either player have done better, or have avoided?
-What are some surprising/unexpected things about the match?
-Are there specific fundamentals that played in either players' favor?
-Does this set have anything to add to the characters' meta?
-What were the key moments and key decisions in the set, good or bad?

As described in this section's original post, we'll be moderating this heavily to keep it on topic and educational. Also, @R.E.O. and @GGA Dizzy, if you have additional insights you're welcome to add them.

Note: Please give timestamps of anything you refer to in the video.

Looking forward to breaking down more and more matches in this fashion -- let's go!

 

[SneakyTortoise]

According to M2dave and his followers, Reo should have been better at guessing on coin tosses

 

[chemist4hire]

This article by Seth Killian on how to watch tournament footage might be helpful. http://shoryuken.com/2013/07/26/domination-101-you-can-lead-a-scrub-to-water-but-you-cant-make-em-think/

 

[SaltShaker]

According to M2dave and his followers, Reo should have been better at guessing on coin tosses

Actually, as simple and incredibly stupid as that sounds, it's also one of the most likely things that would have won him the match...

 

[Braindead]

15:55 the active frames on that EX shocker maaaan lol. Reo blocked it and still got hit.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

Actually, as simple and incredibly stupid as that sounds, it's also one of the most likely things that would have won him the match...

Well yes, of course, as the matches were really close on health, if he had guessed right more times than he did, the result might have gone the other way.

But there are clear examples where Dizzy's spacing was much better than Reo's, which was enabling Dizzy to land the hits in the first place.

M2dave would have you believe that footsies didn't play apart at all, and some people believe that. This is clearly not true

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Well yes, of course, as the matches were really close on health, if he had guessed right more times than he did, the result might have gone the other way.

But there are clear examples where Dizzy's spacing was much better than Reo's, which was enabling Dizzy to land the hits in the first place.

M2dave would have you believe that footsies didn't play apart at all, and some people believe that. This is clearly not true

Timestamps, timestamps

Let's get specific here.

 

[SaltShaker]

Well yes, of course, as the matches were really close on health, if he had guessed right more times than he did, the result might have gone the other way.

But there are clear examples where Dizzy's spacing was much better than Reo's, which was enabling Dizzy to land the hits in the first place.

M2dave would have you believe that footsies didn't play apart at all, and some people believe that. This is clearly not true

I agree and disagree to a certain extent.

I agree that you need the knowledge on how to apply the nuetral game in order to get the pressure. For example, mindlessly running with F2 will get you destroyed using Kung Jin. Footsies are present. So you do see it on display among good players top characters or not.

Where I disagree is their importance. Unlike many other games, to achieve maximum results, using footsies to establish your safe 50/50 into dominant wall carries for more corner 50/50's is by far the Superior use for them. With Cyber Kano my footsie tools, which on paper are vastly superior to Raiden's for example, are in reality vastly inferior because of the design based around these 50/50 characters. My footsie game and knowledge could be twice as good as my opponents, but his one good read can 37% me from midscreen directly into the corner where I'm forced to guess against his safe mixups.

This aspect of gameplay being far more prevalent than the nuetral is what has footsies on life support. Not dead, but pretty weak if you aren't using them to 50/50 someone.

 

[Protagonist_1]

I'm going to go in on this haha @CrimsonShadow . I didn't watch this match but prepare for some GIFs

 

[Braindead]

Timestamps, timestamps

Let's get specific here.

Reo checking Dizzy's run with a 11 @ 6:57, Dizzy should've guessed better man.

13:50, Dizzy counters: Runs in, stops and walks out to make Reo's move whiff then whiff punish is totally flipping a coin.

Dizzy checking Reo's runs with a D3 at 14:05, 16:41, and other times = what be footsies?

Reo jumping back to bait a reaction then divekick at 10:30 is totally a coin toss.

Dizzy's amazing spacing and walking back, bait a jump in then immediately counter with a NJP at 10:50 is a 50/50 bruh.

Shoutouts to Okazoomi.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

@10:30 that was a very nice back walk by Dizzy from point blank to bait a button press.

The little moments of patience help a lot to open up guys who are defending well.

 

[Indecisive]

At around the 3:30 Mark someone tried to reconnect their controller to the console.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

Timestamps, timestamps

Let's get specific here.

Of course. I've got 2 examples for you straight away (would go into more, but I'm supposed to be studying and don't have much time).

4.15 spacing by dizzy allowed him to apply pressure to Reo, pushing closer to the corner with a blockstring

5.18 spacing by dizzy allowed him to wiff punish njp, followed by corner carrying superman.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

There are a couple of moments in the corner (like 15:12) where Dizzy takes advantage of knowing that REO will probably respect his wakeup, to reverse position with wakeup throw.

Smart stuff.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Reo checking Dizzy's run with a 11 @ 6:57, Dizzy should've guessed better man.

13:50, Dizzy counters: Runs in, stops and walks out to make Reo's move whiff then whiff punish is totally flipping a coin.

Dizzy checking Reo's runs with a D3 at 14:05, 16:41, and other times = what be footsies?

Reo jumping back to bait a reaction then divekick at 10:30 is totally a coin toss.

Dizzy's amazing spacing and walking back, bait a jump in then immediately counter with a NJP at 10:50 is a 50/50 bruh.

Shoutouts to Okazoomi.

The sarcasm doesn't override the blaring .... blatant fact that 90% of these matches are...... hold this mixup in the corner.

 

[REDRUM]

when Dizzy pressed f12 at the following time stamps 0:01, 0:06, 0:13, 0:20, 0:21, 0:26, 0:31, 0:37, 0:42, 0:42:04, 0:50,

ok im tired....

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Going to pick an Alucard match and maybe a Redraptor match to analyze after this one.

 

[Protagonist_1]

15:55 the active frames on that EX shocker maaaan lol. Reo blocked it and still got hit.

I think Reo tried to duck and punish but messed up on the timing. But yeah, that move has a lot of active frames

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I think Reo tried to duck and punish but messed up on the timing. But yeah, that move has a lot of active frames

Yeah that looks exactly what happens. Can see he's not blocking.

 

[MK_Al]

I feel that

- Dizzy made Reo respect the EX shocker early on, causing Reo to be more hesitant with his pokes and after knocking Dizzy down. Reo seemed like he wanted to keep his meter for breaker, but making Dizzy respecting the EX bow swing might have been better. Dizzy could pretty much bully him forever, especially in the first three games.
- Dizzy seemed to be better in the air-to-air game, which did not decide the match, but together with some good NJPs and backdashes shut down Reos J1 (or J2...?)
- you should not eat a throw after you knock your oponent down
- When it came down to the end of the last game, it could have been anticipated that Dizzy would go for the superman move. Reo had 3 meter left (meter management?), giving him the cance to maybe chip Dizzy down with EX arrows
- 50/50 city

But of course it was very well played by both, much respect

 

[Albo]

What were particularly effective strategies and tactics for either player?

Dizzy
-The excellent execution with the LRC's into raidens guaranteed 21/f1 vortex in the corner was one of the main factors in his win. Impressive considering he was consistent with this throughout the whole tourny.

-Excellent spacing and footsies to get in kung jin's face, out of jin's comfort range to start his own pressure.

-Dizzy's f12(b2) pressure was used very well, not excessively to where it was predictable and REO was able to interrupt. He caught REO several times trying to press buttons which netted him 16% damage (although he could've got a lot more) and corner carry where he shined most.

-After conditioning REO to respect the f12 pressure he started using throws to catch him off
guard

-With f12b2 he was able to build considerable meter throughout the set. It's hard to find points where he didn't have meter available. Ex shocker and ex vicinty was always a threat

-On reaction he punished reo's pressure sveral times with ex shocker, and made good use of ex vicinty blast as anti air/crossover.

-Whiff punished reo's NJP's and normals very well with f1 and also used f1 very well to beat REO's run ins

-Good use of the option select since it's not easy to get consistently.

-Realising REO was using S1 to counter his run ins, dizzy started using D4 after running in to low profile and whiff punish.

-Very bold read on the last match with the ex shocker into unbreakable throw but smart at the same time given REO surprisingly had failed to punish a single ex shocker throughout the set

-Another final bold read to catch REO with the superman. Even though it only does 1.38% chip, you never know if that was gonna be enough to kill him if he blocked


REO
-Smart stuff using D4 to low profile raidens f1 advances (as well as ex armour). I wondered why he was doing this so much and realised myself after testing it in practice mode

-Effective use of f3 as anti wakeup armour to stuff dizzy's wakeups

-Good use of S1's to catch dizzy running in trying to pressure with f1 in the first few matches.

-Reading that dizzy was sometimes not pressuring on his wakeup, he made good use of throws in the corner to switch positions and give himself the corner advantage. Dizzy also did this several times.

-Excellent spacing with his low b1 to to beat out dizzy's f12 advances as well as his f2



What could either player have done better, or have avoided?

Dizzy

-He could've hit-confirmed f12b2 into much more damage and or reset. I don't think he was aware since even when he punished he just did f12b2 into superman when he had plenty of time to hit confirm it.

-Given that REO was counterpoking his F12B2, dizzy could've cancelled it into shocker which would caught REO trying to counter and if blocked shocker is actually a frame safer and does more chip.

-There were several times where he could've punished REO's JIP with ex shocker

-Perhaps could've mixed it up a bit more midscreen with b3, b2 and f2 along with his f1 pressure

REO

-I don't know if he knew but you can armour out of raiden's reset if he ends it with b14 or lightning bolt and goes for b2 or b3 which dizzy sometimes did. If dizzy went for f1 however, that's guaranteed.

-REO didn't punish (any?) of Dizzy's ex shockers on whiff or block. This cost him a lot of unetted damage. On whiff you can just wait for raiden to bring his hands backwards then get up and punish.

 

[davidovitch]

One thing I noticed by REO (in other matches as well) is that he hardly breaks, easily giving up rounds to preserve meter and sometimes even losing the final round with 2 bars or more. I understand breakers are probably not always the best use of meter but I think REO might be taking that a bit too far right now.

 

[Protagonist_1]

Reo vs. Dizzy Knockdown/Rounds Won/Breaker/Throw Analysis:

Note:
End of match knockdowns, and breaker knockdowns are not included. Combos, dropped combos, and grabs leading to knockdowns are all included.
* indicate number of breakers (not included in number)
Gold Name indicates winner of the round
If there are any miscounts, feel free to correct me

Match 1
Round1: Reo* 3 Dizzy* 3
Round2: Reo 5 Dizzy 3
Round3: Reo* 3 Dizzy 2

Match 2
Round1: Reo* 0 Dizzy 2
Round2: Reo 4 Dizzy 2
Round3: Reo 5 Dizzy 1

Match 3
Round1: Reo* 4 Dizzy 1
Round2: Reo 5 Dizzy 1
Round3: Reo* 3 Dizzy** 3

Match 4
Round1: Reo 4 Dizzy 1
Round2: Reo 5 Dizzy* 6


Match 5
Round1: Reo 6 Dizzy 2
Round2: Reo 4 Dizzy 2
Round3: Reo* 3 Dizzy* 5

Percentage of winning a round by having more knockdowns: 66.6%

Total Knockdowns:
Reo: 54
Dizzy: 34

Total Rounds Won:
Dizzy: 7
Reo: 7

Important: It's important to note that Dizzy was using a standing reset in the corner which lead to him having less knockdowns for more potential mix up pressure.
Also important, Dizzy despite having less knockdowns in M3R1 and M5R2 made up for it through his corner game.

Total Breakers:
Reo: 6
Dizzy: 5

Total Throws:
Reo: 14
Dizzy: 12

Important to note: Over 50% of the throws came from the last two matches. A large percentage came from tick throwing in the final round as well (poke then throw). Dizzy also had the highest number of throws in a single round (4 throws) in Round 2 of match 4.

Air-to-airs: (to be completed later)
Reo:
Dizzy:

Anti-airs: (to be completed later)
Reo:
Dizzy:

Damage: (to be completed later)

I'll be posting some gifs in my next post

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Reo vs. Dizzy Knockdown/Rounds Won/Breaker/Throw Analysis:

Note:
End of match knockdowns, and breaker knockdowns are not included. Combos, dropped combos, and grabs leading to knockdowns are all included.
* indicate number of breakers (not included in number)
Gold Name indicates winner of the round
If there are any miscounts, feel free to correct me

Match 1
Round1: Reo* 3 Dizzy* 3
Round2: Reo 5 Dizzy 3
Round3: Reo* 3 Dizzy 2

Match 2
Round1: Reo* 0 Dizzy 2
Round2: Reo 4 Dizzy 2
Round3: Reo 5 Dizzy 1

Match 3
Round1: Reo* 4 Dizzy 1
Round2: Reo 5 Dizzy 1
Round3: Reo* 3 Dizzy** 3

Match 4
Round1: Reo 4 Dizzy 1
Round2: Reo 5 Dizzy* 6


Match 5
Round1: Reo 6 Dizzy 2
Round2: Reo 4 Dizzy 2
Round3: Reo* 3 Dizzy* 5

Percentage of winning a round by having more knockdowns: 66.6%

Total Knockdowns:
Reo: 54
Dizzy: 34

Total Rounds Won:
Dizzy: 7
Reo: 7

Important: It's important to note that Dizzy was using a standing reset in the corner which lead to him having less knockdowns for more potential mix up pressure.
Also important, Dizzy despite having less knockdowns in M3R1 and M5R2 made up for it through his corner game.

Total Breakers:
Reo: 6
Dizzy: 5

Total Throws:
Reo: 14
Dizzy: 12

Important to note: Over 50% of the throws came from the last two matches. A large percentage came from tick throwing in the final round as well (poke then throw). Dizzy also had the highest number of throws in a single round (4 throws) in Round 2 of match 4.

Air-to-airs: (to be completed later)
Reo:
Dizzy:

Anti-airs: (to be completed later)
Reo:
Dizzy:

I'll be posting some gifs in my next post

I think we talked about this in IGAU, but imo a damage dealing analysis will tell a lot more than raw knockdowns.

 

[Protagonist_1]

I think we talked about this in IGAU, but imo a damage dealing analysis will tell a lot more than raw knockdowns.

True, I plan on doing that as well. It takes a lot of time however