Most people have normals that can reach and punish it, don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise just because subs does not. He has T-rex arms, not everyone else does. And yes, Torryuken can be blocked and punished, however the advantage of doing 11 torryuken is the fact that 11x EX torryuken is indeed safe. I usually would be doing that as a punish regardless so yeah.
There are more. Delay WU into backdash once you've committed to a jump. Some characters like Raiden can low-profile AA you with their stupid d.3 hitboxes, I could go on. As far as b.2 and f.2 goes, if you have to delay anything even slightly you open a window for rebuttal. If your set-up can't work with the exact same timing in every situation, its just regular oki, not a vortex. If you have to guess what the opponent might do, or if the opponent's options have a way around yours (like the fact that not all delayed WUs have varying speeds) that would require you to do anything different than you usually do, then thats not a vortex.
I didn't bring up the roll one, but if we are on the subject, no they can't. Tech rolls, like backdashes, have a small recovery. You're welcome to try for yourself, but they can't jump out of the f.2 or b.2 set-ups.
So Torr has T-rex arms now heh? Because even with Torr's standing 2 (8 frames), it is
extremely hard to punish Torr Charge. Try it yourself by having AI on Block Always and Reverse Mode with Torr Charge. Good luck hitting a single 2 out of 10 tries. With standing 1 (9 frames) it was just not possible. I found it much easier to punish Torr Up consistently with standing 2.
But Boom, your debate was misplaced from the beginning. If you read my first post, I mentioned EX Torryuken as a punish for Ghost echo to see, I wrote the inputs too because that punish can too lead to Torrvex. If I had a bar, I would go for a Torryuken punish to follow with F2~4xxB, F3. Only if they were low on health would I waste the bar to enhance Torr Charge, because it is an impossible to drop punish for ending the round. So what's your point then to begin with? If one had no meter, why would he choose -for a punish attempt- Torr Up over Torr Charge which creates some space and is one frame safer on block? It is
practically safe from heavy punishers, and at any case far safer than Torr Up, anyone can check this out with reverse mode. I for one was never against using EX Torryuken in punishes, granted the meter.
In regards to Rolltex, you were right about there not being enough time to jump out of it after tech rolling, due to tech roll recovery, should Torr use Run. But the roll set-up suffers much from all that
you described above. For one, B2 is simply too unreliable for Rollex. If the Lackey player decides to use B2 right away and the opponent rolls, it will whiff. If the Lackey player decides to Run into B2 (anticipating a tech roll) but the opponent doesn't roll, they can wake up attack meterless or jump away. You can never rely on B2 with Rolltex. But you have to rely on Run way to much for the roll set-up. If they tech roll you have to Run to them. You have described above why relying on Run is ill-advised. So where is it exactly that "you have to guess what the opponent might do, or if the opponent's options have a way around yours" ?
As for Torrvex, you don't have to Run, only walk a step and Jip to B2/F2 or dash in to B2/F2. And while we 're at it, where is your problem in taking a moment after dash to B2? Where is the problem in taking two moments after dash to F2? It's only a matter of getting used to calculating delay between F2 & B2. If the delay is timed right they won't be able to move before getting hit, even in wake up armor they will receive the hit. It depends only on execution. Delayed backdash, seriously? Good luck with that. In regards to backdash, if the Lackey player commits to step, jump in 2 to F2 and the opponent backdashes, yes they escape but they lose energy. Should the Lackey player commit to the B2 string after Jip instead, they will get hit during backdash's recovery. As for Raiden's D3s, well what can I say? Did you not see the video? In the set-up, it is shown how the opponent doesn't have the time to leave the ground, Kung Lao's pure anti air spin doesn't have time to initiate to hit a *JIP* and you expect them to find the time to execute normals like D3?
You seem to exclaim at how my set-up is not vortex. Then how come you mentioned your own set-up as vortex, one that cannot even apply the overhead reliably, as I explained above?
Anyway, like I said, your replies were misplaced from the start. Using Torr Charge instead of Torr Up when there is no meter, that is simply the choice favored by common sense/math. On block it's less unsafe if you like to call it completely unsafe. On hit it leads to a set-up. One that you seem ever-eager to downplay. I've long since removed the "true" word that bugged you. Let us remove it from "True Ogre" phrase too.
