MY PREDICTIONS FOR THE NEXT BALANCE PATCH - POST YOURS

[PandaManee]

No. Because if you keep making the strong weaker, the overall strength of performance will dwindle. Also, 50/50 are not vortex. A vortex is a situation where you are forced to constantly guess between options and keep taking damage until you guess right. If you guess right, the balanced situation would be the opponent taking a massive faceplant but unfortunately that is not always the case.

Picture this... You are in the corner vs raiden. You get knock down he does a low canceled into that EX move where he looks like he explodes. If you got up with a wake up you get comboed . IF you get up you may get comboed if you blocked wrong if you block right he is back to neutral and has a 6 frame move that start his pressure so you are more or less at a disadvantage. If you delay wake up, he doesn't use the meter and can mix you up safely with a low , over head into OS or grab.

The only way i see buffing everyone else to fight this effectively is giving many of them super armor at least on wake up... Or you could just give him some slight nerfs instead of having to change 23 characters in the cases ....

 

[Cerebru]

Because if you're actually good enough at the game, you can hit confirm strings that have at least 2 hits. The only reason anyone would ever use Electrocute on block is for the option select, so there is no reason for it to be safe on block because if you see the opponent block your string pressure you don't need to dial in DF2.

Lol dude.... you sound bad

 

[PandaManee]

I really like option selects, it adds another layer to the game... Things should be done to some of them that are OP though like raidens overhead to the shocker...fro - 67 to -7 real quick :\

 

[GLoRToR]

Picture this... You are in the corner vs raiden. You get knock down he does a low canceled into that EX move where he looks like he explodes. If you got up with a wake up you get comboed . IF you get up you may get comboed if you blocked wrong if you block right he is back to neutral and has a 6 frame move that start his pressure so you are more or less at a disadvantage. If you delay wake up, he doesn't use the meter and can mix you up safely with a low , over head into OS or grab.

The only way i see buffing everyone else to fight this effectively is giving many of them super armor at least on wake up... Or you could just give him some slight nerfs instead of having to change 23 characters in the cases ....

You misunderstand. I'm talking about tendencies not specific cases, I never said bugs shouldn't be fixed. Issues like that are result of hasty testing, and while I do miss having armour on wakeup, I'm not entirely against not having it.

My point is that if we leave weak characters weak we're not improving the game just pushing bricks around.

 

[SEV]

Lol dude.... you sound bad

You sound like you don't play Raiden, or anyone at a high level for that matter if you don't understand what I said in regards to hit confirming.

 

[Drew Grimey]

I really like option selects, it adds another layer to the game... Things should be done to some of them that are OP though like raidens overhead to the shocker...fro - 67 to -7 real quick :\

But that's the point of these option selects, to make unsafe stuff safe. All option selects can be considered "OP" to a point, since they are essentially an exploit of the game's mechanics.

OS's remove a layer of the game's "mind game" portion of play and instead add a layer of execution, they overall remove more from the game than they add, but that's a topic for a different thread.

 

[learis1]

No. Because if you keep making the strong weaker, the overall strength of performance will dwindle. Also, 50/50 are not vortex. A vortex is a situation where you are forced to constantly guess between options and keep taking damage until you guess right. If you guess right, the balanced situation would be the opponent taking a massive faceplant but unfortunately that is not always the case.

I meant 50/50 and vortex characters. What do you mean by the overall strength of performance will dwindle.

 

[PandaManee]

You misunderstand. I'm talking about tendencies not specific cases, I never said bugs shouldn't be fixed. Issues like that are result of hasty testing, and while I do miss having armour on wakeup, I'm not entirely against not having it.

My point is that if we leave weak characters weak we're not improving the game just pushing bricks around.

If you only had "strong" characters shit would get stupid.. characters needs holes in their game to make the game interesting. Right now raiden has nigh any holes.

 

[PandaManee]

But that's the point of these option selects, to make unsafe stuff safe. All option selects can be considered "OP" to a point, since they are essentially an exploit of the game's mechanics.

OS's remove a layer of the game's "mind game" portion of play and instead add a layer of execution, they overall remove more from the game than they add, but that's a topic for a different thread.

YOu have a point but some weaker characters can really use it. Im thinking in terms of jason. He could b2 into tick throw... He can OS it so only when it is blocked the throw comes out and when it hits he can go for the for combo. It is more difficult than the raiden one though.. but very useful and i think he kinda needs it.

 

[qspec]

Out of curiosity, how does this game change if the OS (block vs hit window) gets removed?

Is it for the better? Does the top tier stay the same? Does nothing change at all?

@PandaManee

If a character is balanced around a mechanic exploit, isn't that a case for buffs? I really don't think we should be balancing around this particular OS.

 

[GLoRToR]

What do you mean by the overall strength of performance will dwindle.

An over-exaggerated example of dwindling gameplay. Let's say we remove every 50/50 because they are broken. Then zoning becomes uber so characters who do not have zoning, do not get options but we make zoning weak. So characters who are good in their skirmishing such as fast pokes etc. become top so we nerf those too. In the end we end up with Dota2. XD

If you only had "strong" characters shit would get stupid.. characters needs holes in their game to make the game interesting. Right now raiden has nigh any holes.

I've yet to see an analysis of that but videos will happen and we'll see. Yet again, singling out a character somebody has a problem with is not how you manage game design. I understand your point and agree with the need of normalising and adjustments but please do consider the above if we ever get to vote whether nerfing is the only way to develop. (which won't happen obviously)

 

[Zebster]

Out of curiosity, how does this game change if the OS (block vs hit window) gets removed?

Is it for the better? Does the top tier stay the same? Does nothing change at all?

Some bad characters get worse, some top tier characters don't change because they don't rely on the OS. So the gap between bottom and top tier gets larger (in theory).

 

[Cerebru]

You sound like you don't play Raiden, or anyone at a high level for that matter if you don't understand what I said in regards to hit confirming.

I don't kid. I'm the worst Raiden Player in the history of MK. lol

 

[PandaManee]

Out of curiosity, how does this game change if the OS (block vs hit window) gets removed?

Is it for the better? Does the top tier stay the same? Does nothing change at all?
.

Raiden will definitely drop.. So as some other characters potential ...

 

[Brown Cow 54]

You sound like you don't play Raiden, or anyone at a high level for that matter if you don't understand what I said in regards to hit confirming.

The only thing I would say that you are forgetting or just ignoring is that NRS is always going to consider all three variations of a character before balance changes. Try suggesting something that doesn't affect his other variations.

 

[M.D.]

If Raiden gets to keep his electrocute safe I want Johnny's shadow kick the same. The same frames on block adv.
Why shouldn't I be able to end all my bad reads in a safe move and not give a shit about the opponent as well?

 

[REDRUM]

why so many nerfs for Raiden.?..

i think the better solution is buff the chars who dont have a good poke to stop f12 rinse repeat...

 

[PandaManee]

I've yet to see an analysis of that but videos will happen and we'll see. Yet again, singling out a character somebody has a problem with is not how you manage game design. I understand your point and agree with the need of normalising and adjustments but please do consider the above if we ever get to vote whether nerfing is the only way to develop. (which won't happen obviously)

Have you ever played Injustice ? WOuld you have suggested to give everyone something that equates too a 60% combo into a reset that will kill like superman had? Or giving everyone something equal to a full screen 2 frame super?? Somethings just have to be nerfed. Otherwise people will just wait to see who makes the first move to counter then momentum wins the game.

 

[learis1]

An over-exaggerated example of dwindling gameplay. Let's say we remove every 50/50 because they are broken. Then zoning becomes uber so characters who do not have zoning, do not get options but we make zoning weak. So characters who are good in their skirmishing such as fast pokes etc. become top so we nerf those too. In the end we end up with Dota2. XD

That's a slippery slope argument. The reverse can be said for your side as well. If we were to just to solve this problem by buffing all characters to the point where they become mindless uber offense juggernauts, the game devolves into a "who can make the first right guess wins" game.

Ultimately some characters need buffs and others need nerfs to strike a balance.

 

[Tigerbang]

why so many nerfs for Raiden.?..

i think the better solution is buff the chars who dont have a good poke to stop f12 rinse repeat...

I think it would take a LOT of "buffing" to around 90+ % of the cast to be able to deal with Raidens lvl of strength.

 

[learis1]

why so many nerfs for Raiden.?..

i think the better solution is buff the chars who dont have a good poke to stop f12 rinse repeat...

Why change the entire cast of characters when you can solve the problem by nerfing one character?

 

[SEV]

Out of curiosity, how does this game change if the OS (block vs hit window) gets removed?

Is it for the better? Does the top tier stay the same? Does nothing change at all?

@PandaManee

If a character is balanced around a mechanic exploit, isn't that a case for buffs? I really don't think we should be balancing around this particular OS.

They most likely won't remove this option select. The main option select that most people talk about, is in regards to using special after strings and being able to cancel it on block. This is a cancel off of a single button that contains more than one hit, and just due to block stun versus hit stun difference in regards to input delay, this option select becomes possible.

Other characters that can cancel mid button that I know of are Takeda off of F1 2+4(he can let only the first half of the whip animation come out and cancel, or let it complete then cancel), Kung Jin from his armor breaking move(don't play Kung Jin so I don't know that button) where he can cancel after the first hit of the button to go low or let it complete for an overhead, and Cassie at any hit from D+F1 into American Way or Cartwheel.

I'm sure there is more, but that's all that I know of. Since it's integral to Cassie's 50/50 and helpful for Takeda, if any changes are made, they will most likely be make individually, rather than a blanket fix, by just patching out Raiden's ability to cancel all together off of B2.

Maybe I'm alone in this boat, but I don't see why he shouldn't be able to use meter if he want's to make it safe, like many other can do. I just don't think he, or any character for that matter, should be able to sustain pressure after guessing wrong on a 50/50, let alone go be able to go for another 50/50, which is the case current with Raiden in the corner against certain characters.

 

[qspec]

They most likely won't remove this option select. The main option select that most people talk about, is in regards to using special after strings and being able to cancel it on block. This is a cancel off of a single button that contains more than one hit, and just due to block stun versus hit stun difference in regards to input delay, this option select becomes possible.

The issue should be relatively easy to fix (in the abstract, as I have no idea what their code looks like). If you make it so the directional input doesn't "wash out" the special input, you've (completely or mostly) solved the problem. That makes it so if you input the special, it is going to come out regardless of whether or not they ultimately block or get hit.

Outside of that, make the cancel window the same whether on hit or block. That should fix it as well.

In either case, I would stab someone for an official NRS stance on them. Are they a part of the game temporarily or is this "learn it or fall behind for good" territory?

 

[SEV]

The only thing I would say that you are forgetting or just ignoring is that NRS is always going to consider all three variations of a character before balance changes. Try suggesting something that doesn't affect his other variations.

The only thing that could have any affect on his other variation would be making Electrocute more negative on block since currently he can make B33 more safe without the use of meter from -17 currently to -7. But if you want safe 50/50s and teleports/lighting traps, you should be willing to get off of a bar to use Vicinity Burst to make it safe. So you need to make that choice, do you want a meterless, safe option in your 50/50 in Thunder God, or do you want the benefits of his other variations.

 

[PandaManee]

The issue should be relatively easy to fix (in the abstract, as I have no idea what their code looks like). If you make it so the directional input doesn't "wash out" the special input, you've (completely or mostly) solved the problem. That makes it so if you input the special, it is going to come out regardless of whether or not they ultimately block or get hit.

Outside of that, make the cancel window the same whether on hit or block. That should fix it as well.

In either case, I would stab someone for an official NRS stance on them. Are they a part of the game temporarily or is this "learn it or fall behind for good" territory?

I don't think you fully understand the OS.

It isn't done with that function you are talking about there, but doing the move late so that it will only work if it was blocked.