Some changes that I would make.

[wa_black]

Push block should be one bar.

Stance switch should cancel the previous directional input. This would allows players to activate normals that require forward inputs after walking back without fear of getting a special attack. You walk back press the stance switch button and then input your forward normal.

Throws done out of juggles should be untechable. It's one thing that you have to pay a bar for a non-guranteed setup, but now out of a juggle you may not even get the chance because there is nothing stopping them from mashing their tech while they're being juggled. The only mix ups is going for the throw that lands you in the corner, so they're obviously going to tech the throw that would put them in the corner, forcing you to corner yourself, and pay bar to risk getting cornered with disadvantage or being corner combo'd all for a bar of your meter, especially when chracters like scorpion (and others) get setups like this for free, so being able to tech air juggles just kind of flips the bird to characters that want to use to it for that last minute reset.

More variety in variations. Scorpion is one of the best example of a character with good variations. They're all good and they are all unique. After landing a spear that may look similar, but before that you have hellfire hitting links, fireball cancel pressure, aura chip, vortex cancels into aura (hold that). Ninjutsu has F2, a.k.a "screw your wake ups you're going to block this... get grabbed", moves that knock you down within it's range, and a a damn-near-fullscreen 17 frame whiff punish. and Inferno has: get touched take 40%, my bad take like 30% hold this vortex, and the take 50% when I spend meter... then I zone.

The laws for a good variation are: Is it viably unique from it's competition (other vars) and does it have viable tools (being forced to spend meter for your setups is not viable) to play it's game.

Violations (Just some that I've found, but there are plenty)
Nox Reptile: has to pay meter for puddle. Solution: Let Noxious have a special who's input is df1+d (acid while holding down) for a meterless puddle and throw in a string that gives him a hard knock down to viably set up a puddle if he does not have one already.

Ass Kitana: Sharpen and razor sharpen are super slow. There has been talk about making kitana's fans hit mid and have less startup. Why not give that buff to Royal and give Assasin's fans more hitstun (less recovery) to confirm a mid or fullscreen impale confirm for conversion damage.

Lak F/T: Why use lackey when you could have the range and damage of viscous?

Ron Takeda: quick calls should allow for at least limited juggles. They falling in front of you and there's nothing you can do, but watch.

Besides a patch to help character lacking in their neutral game, I do hope they try to make variety differ from they're counterparts and make them viable. Mind you there a characters like Jax that arguably don't have bad variations, but that doesn't mean that they can't be made more unique.

 

[juicepouch]

bro lackey is good

 

[theend1114]

Btw, you didnt even give an example of a character who's variations lack variety.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Stance switch should cancel the previous directional input. This would allows players to activate normals that require forward inputs after walking back without fear of getting a special attack. You walk back press the stance switch button and then input your forward normal.

Throws done out of juggles should be untechable. It's one thing that you have to pay a bar for a non-guranteed setup, but now out of a juggle you may not even get the chance because there is nothing stopping them from mashing their tech while they're being juggled. The only mix ups is going for the throw that lands you in the corner, so they're obviously going to tech the throw that would put them in the corner, forcing you to corner yourself, and pay bar to risk getting cornered with disadvantage or being corner combo'd all for a bar of your meter, especially when chracters like scorpion (and others) get setups like this for free, so being able to tech air juggles just kind of flips the bird to characters that want to use to it for that last minute reset.

More variety in variations. Scorpion is one of the best example of a character with good variations. They're all good and they are all unique. After landing a spear that may look similar, but before that you have hellfire hitting links, fireball cancel pressure, aura chip, vortex cancels into aura (hold that). Ninjutsu has F2, a.k.a "screw your wake ups you're going to block this... get grabbed", moves that knock you down within it's range, and a a damn-near-fullscreen 17 frame whiff punish. and Inferno has: get touched take 40%, my bad take like 30% hold this vortex, and the take 50% when I spend meter... then I zone.

The laws for a good variation are: Is it viably unique from it's competition (other vars) and does it have viable tools (being forced to spend meter for your setups is not viable) to play it's game.

Violations (Just some that I've found, but there are plenty)
Nox Reptile: has to pay meter for puddle. Solution: Let Noxious have a special who's input is df1+d (acid while holding down) for a meterless puddle and throw in a string that gives him a hard knock down to viably set up a puddle if he does not have one already.

Ass Kitana: Sharpen and razor sharpen are super slow. There has been talk about making kitana's fans hit mid and have less startup. Why not give that buff to Royal and give Assasin's fans more hitstun (less recovery) to confirm a mid or fullscreen impale confirm for conversion damage.

Lak F/T: Why use lackey when you could have the range and damage of viscous?

Ron Takeda: quick calls should allow for at least limited juggles. They falling in front of you and there's nothing you can do, but watch.

Besides a patch to help character lacking in their neutral game, I do hope they try to make variety differ from they're counterparts and make them viable. Mind you there a characters like Jax that arguably don't have bad variations, but that doesn't mean that they can't be made more unique.

1 when was the last time you teched a throw on purpose? that never happens.
2 ronin takeda is a meter management character, there is nothing wrong with that, he needs the meter to combo and if you meter burn the callback it pops them up, this isnt MK9 where every character had at least a 30% combo no bars. this game you need to use your meter wisely with certain characters. it a way of balancing the game
3 lackey ferra torr you would use if you like grapplers that have a fuck ton of armor
4 assassin kitana no that shit needs to be a mid since if you crouch without blocking you can get in on kitana way too easy. also the sharpening is fine since you have to set up a situation for it and it is what gets her her damage, if it was immediate that wouldnt matter since you would still need to knock them down anyways to get it off
5 noxious reptile, no the puddle is good as a meter burn since you can build up an insane amount of chip damage in the corner with it if you know what you are doing and it is a balanced way to make it so it doesnt get out of hand
6 yes it is viable to have your set ups require meter, that is what is called a meter management character.
7 every variation is completely unique in playstyle, HOWEVER not all of them are viable.

 

[exflyingbooty]

4 assassin kitana no that shit needs to be a mid since if you crouch without blocking you can get in on kitana way too easy. also the sharpening is fine since you have to set up a situation for it and it is what gets her her damage, if it was immediate that wouldnt matter since you would still need to knock them down anyways to get it off

No, kitana's fans don't need to be a mid that would make her too strong and this is coming from a kitana main. She get's 16% full screen conversions from fans and a lot of other fun conversions normally.

Also, sharpen can use a buff since kitana has no way to open you up especially since in order to get sharpen off in a position where i can get oki during the mid of my combo where the air fan connects i need to sharpen at that moment to still be at advantage. It would be nice to actually have that in such a way where i can end my combos optimally and still get it other then the first option.

 

[Phosferrax]

Some fucking anti-airs would be nice, or at least a nerf to some of the stupidly good jump attacks. I don't know why NRS encourage jumping so much.

 

[wa_black]

No, kitana's fans don't need to be a mid that would make her too strong and this is coming from a kitana main. She get's 16% full screen conversions from fans and a lot of other fun conversions normally.

Also, sharpen can use a buff since kitana has no way to open you up especially since in order to get sharpen off in a position where i can get oki during the mid of my combo where the air fan connects i need to sharpen at that moment to still be at advantage. It would be nice to actually have that in such a way where i can end my combos optimally and still get it other then the first option.

I just threw in that fan thing for royal storm users. I checked the kitana forums and fan buffs seem to be a fan favorite. I couldn't agree more with what you said about sharpen.

bro lackey is good

I didn't say it was bad. I just don't know why people would use it over viscous, which offers more range and damage.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

No, kitana's fans don't need to be a mid that would make her too strong and this is coming from a kitana main. She get's 16% full screen conversions from fans and a lot of other fun conversions normally.

Also, sharpen can use a buff since kitana has no way to open you up especially since in order to get sharpen off in a position where i can get oki during the mid of my combo where the air fan connects i need to sharpen at that moment to still be at advantage. It would be nice to actually have that in such a way where i can end my combos optimally and still get it other then the first option.

alright i will take your word for it, you have more experience with the character so your opinion far outweighs mine in this category

 

[moraelgamed]

Some fucking anti-airs would be nice, or at least a nerf to some of the stupidly good jump attacks. I don't know why NRS encourage jumping so much.

So much of this. Neutral and forward jumps.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Some fucking anti-airs would be nice, or at least a nerf to some of the stupidly good jump attacks. I don't know why NRS encourage jumping so much.

i have never had trouble against jumping beans, then again i play kenshi and i punish the fuck out of you for jumping against me. aka NO JUMPING IN MY DOJO!

 

[moraelgamed]

i have never had trouble against jumping beans, then again i play kenshi and i punish the fuck out of you for jumping against me. aka NO JUMPING IN MY DOJO!

There is an idea that i think would do well to many of the characters. In SFxT Jin Kazama had a move that was invisible to aerial attack. It would not hit grounded opponents at all but will beat any attack where the opponent would be considered airborne. I think some characters in this game could use anti-airs like that.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

There is an idea that i think would do well to many of the characters. In SFxT Jin Kazama had a move that was invisible to aerial attack. It would not hit grounded opponents at all but will beat any attack where the opponent would be considered airborne. I think some characters in this game could use anti-airs like that.

pretty much all of kenshis zoning is anti airs, which means dont jump if you want to live if you face me, rising karma leads to a full combo punish, telefury can catch you out of the air, teleslash can anti air you, so yeah, no jumping against me at any time at any point of the screen against me XD

 

[Eddy Wang]

1. Window to tech a throw increased up a bit for 2 or 3 more frames and we would be good to go.

2. Somehow this MK has charging directions which shouldn't happen, if you're playing Johhny Cage, you hold down and then you want to immediately go for a F2, if you do that coming from crouching you will get a fire ball, Buffer Bug 2015, IMO this can be easily fixable by having a input window decided by frames.´This also screws Scorpion footsies when you walking back and forth to bait a wakeup and punish with standing 1, sometimes i get a damn spear.
What i don't understad is why i have to do the special so fast while doing combos do connect, but if i'm walking back and forth it buffer the hell out of inputs and specials come out.

3. Kung Jin's NJP and Jump in 2 is close to game breaking, its unduckable, you can't run under it and in most cases you can't jump to counter it, there is a high risk the range of his staff will reach you instead because his hurtbox stays kinda chill behind it, since the damage has been done already and the hitboxes ranges can't be reduced i believe, this exclusive moves should have more recovery on landing or less blockstun compared to the rest NJPs in the game, its not like we have to deal with his safe 50-50s, but having all this shuts down completely air ground and crouching and all characters are obligated to Fuzzy guard if he puts you on the right range, and the tip of the bullshit, is the stupid damage bojutsu do with no use of meter, if some blows up for this so be it, i know its not F23 but definitely is something close.

 

[wa_black]

1 when was the last time you teched a throw on purpose? that never happens.
2 ronin takeda is a meter management character, there is nothing wrong with that, he needs the meter to combo and if you meter burn the callback it pops them up, this isnt MK9 where every character had at least a 30% combo no bars. this game you need to use your meter wisely with certain characters. it a way of balancing the game
3 lackey ferra torr you would use if you like grapplers that have a fuck ton of armor
4 assassin kitana no that shit needs to be a mid since if you crouch without blocking you can get in on kitana way too easy. also the sharpening is fine since you have to set up a situation for it and it is what gets her her damage, if it was immediate that wouldnt matter since you would still need to knock them down anyways to get it off
5 noxious reptile, no the puddle is good as a meter burn since you can build up an insane amount of chip damage in the corner with it if you know what you are doing and it is a balanced way to make it so it doesnt get out of hand
6 yes it is viable to have your set ups require meter, that is what is called a meter management character.
7 every variation is completely unique in playstyle, HOWEVER not all of them are viable.

1. You can just mash it when you're being juggled. No reason not to.
2. Every character in the game is a meter management character, but the problem comes from the fact that a character's life takes priorty over personal use. Players will burn meter to armor through attacks and break. Spending meter on your set play can prevent you from doing that, then you get wrecked. I just suggested that he not be so reliant on it. Ther;e's no reason why quick call shouldn't allow for a little added damage. Right now ronin is a slow character as far as setting up is concerned, so I can't see him getting nearly as much play as shirai ryu who can just go in meterless and do what he was meant to.
3. The armor might be the answer to my question as to why you would choose him over vicious, but is it ex armor? Because I'm pretty sure vicious also has ex armor moves.
4. She barely has the knockdowns for it, and if you do it on their wake up, you're probably not going to have enough time to do a meaty, so could basically just be giving them the advatage on their wake up. 73 frames is a lot of time, and 53 if you ex it, still super slow.
5. And... Reptile doesn't have that much damage, especially noxious. Once your chip is going (assuming they didn't armor through you) take a once combo and they will probably deal 3x to as to what they took from your set up that you paid for. Heck, now you might not be able to break. Going up against a common character like Kung jin, your bound to mess up and take a lot more damage than your set up can provide, and not being able to BREAK is what will most likely be the end of you. Which is why a character shouldn't have to rely on meter. Without the puddle, noxious is a terrible version of hellfire scorpion.
6. Nope. One thing I learned from playing this game is that meter is everything. The stars have to align for you to spend your meter on breakers, armors, and your set ups. It's cool the burn it on a some setups, but when you have to get your game going, you're done for against a character like inferno scorp who doesn't need meter to play his game.
7.Noxious isn't. Puddle is universal, so all he has his posion gas. He only plays different because he doesn't have the tools the others have. He's basically vanilla (no variation) reptile with a small damage boost (.20 a tick). What I was mainly reffering to (and I should have explained this better) is that a character like Ninjutsu scorpion is suppose to be the control/footsie variant and his tools reflect that. Assasin kitana is suppose to be the more mobile variant, but isn't. Impale is punishable, can't be cancelled, so it doesn't add to her mobility, just adds to her mix up and punish potential. My problem was mainly that instead giving assasin more tools to fit her role, she for the most part, has the same tools as her counterparts, whether they add to her game or not, hence the lacking variety; this is the same for a lot of variation like noxious. Reptile in general is an example of lame variations, though their concepts are awesome, they're also the same with the exception of ONE special (not counting ex), no strings or normals to help with their setups or anything.

3. Kung Jin's NJP and Jump in 2 is close to game breaking, its unduckable, you can't run under it and in most cases you can't jump to counter it, there is a high risk the range of his staff will reach you instead because his hurtbox stays kinda chill behind it, since the damage has been done already and the hitboxes ranges can't be reduced i believe, this exclusive moves should have more recovery on landing or less blockstun compared to the rest NJPs in the game, its not like we have to deal with his safe 50-50s, but having all this shuts down completely air ground and crouching and all characters are obligated to Fuzzy guard if he puts you on the right range, and the tip of the bullshit, is the stupid damage bojutsu do with no use of meter, if some blows up for this so be it, i know its not F23 but definitely is something close.

I heard through the grapevine that his njp is the only one that punishable in the game. I believe PL said it. Something about him having weird landing frames.

How do you feel about the large presence of vortex and os "glitch" (don't know what else to call it). Personally I think the game will get a little scary when people are just going doing safe vortexes all day. It kind of negates the point of negative specials. Also won't it take away the wake up option against some character? Meaty fast recovering normal: on hit (including armor), block or ex special cancel or regular special cancel to block their wake up or just combo, but when blocked, do nothing...

 

[Scott The Scot]

being forced to spend meter for your setups is not viable

Yo guys, Cassie and her +52 restanding EX Nutpunch that allows for an uninterruptible mixup that loops into itself isn't viable.

 

[wa_black]

Yo guys, Cassie and her +52 restanding EX Nutpunch that allows for an uninterruptible mixup that loops into itself isn't viable.

She doesn't rely on that though. Ex nut punch is just icing on her cake (phrasing). I was referring more to characters like ronin takeda who can't combo his calls without meter or noxious reptiles who can't set up puddles without meter.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

1. You can just mash it when you're being juggled. No reason not to.
2. Every character in the game is a meter management character, but the problem comes from the fact that a character's life takes priorty over personal use. Players will burn meter to armor through attacks and break. Spending meter on your set play can prevent you from doing that, then you get wrecked. I just suggested that he not be so reliant on it. Ther;e's no reason why quick call shouldn't allow for a little added damage. Right now ronin is a slow character as far as setting up is concerned, so I can't see him getting nearly as much play as shirai ryu who can just go in meterless and do what he was meant to.
3. The armor might be the answer to my question as to why you would choose him over vicious, but is it ex armor? Because I'm pretty sure vicious also has ex armor moves.
4. She barely has the knockdowns for it, and if you do it on their wake up, you're probably not going to have enough time to do a meaty, so could basically just be giving them the advatage on their wake up. 73 frames is a lot of time, and 53 if you ex it, still super slow.
5. And... Reptile doesn't have that much damage, especially noxious. Once your chip is going (assuming they didn't armor through you) take a once combo and they will probably deal 3x to as to what they took from your set up that you paid for. Heck, now you might not be able to break. Going up against a common character like Kung jin, your bound to mess up and take a lot more damage than your set up can provide, and not being able to BREAK is what will most likely be the end of you. Which is why a character shouldn't have to rely on meter. Without the puddle, noxious is a terrible version of hellfire scorpion.
6. Nope. One thing I learned from playing this game is that meter is everything. The stars have to align for you to spend your meter on breakers, armors, and your set ups. It's cool the burn it on a some setups, but when you have to get your game going, you're done for against a character like inferno scorp who doesn't need meter to play his game.
7.Noxious isn't. Puddle is universal, so all he has his posion gas. He only plays different because he doesn't have the tools the others have. He's basically vanilla (no variation) reptile with a small damage boost (.20 a tick). What I was mainly reffering to (and I should have explained this better) is that a character like Ninjutsu scorpion is suppose to be the control/footsie variant and his tools reflect that. Assasin kitana is suppose to be the more mobile variant, but isn't. Impale is punishable, can't be cancelled, so it doesn't add to her mobility, just adds to her mix up and punish potential. My problem was mainly that instead giving assasin more tools to fit her role, she for the most part, has the same tools as her counterparts, whether they add to her game or not, hence the lacking variety; this is the same for a lot of variation like noxious. Reptile in general is an example of lame variations, though their concepts are awesome, they're also the same with the exception of ONE special (not counting ex), no strings or normals to help with their setups or anything.



I heard through the grapevine that his njp is the only one that punishable in the game. I believe PL said it. Something about him having weird landing frames.

How do you feel about the large presence of vortex and os "glitch" (don't know what else to call it). Personally I think the game will get a little scary when people are just going doing safe vortexes all day. It kind of negates the point of negative specials. Also won't it take away the wake up option against some character? Meaty fast recovering normal: on hit (including armor), block or ex special cancel or regular special cancel to block their wake up or just combo, but when blocked, do nothing...

I know about noxious reptile, i play a lot of him, but he trades damage for really good mix ups, and part of being a meter management character is choosing when to break and when to eat the damage so you can get more meter and deal the damage back, and not every character in the game is a meter management character, Balanced kenshi isnt, inferno scorpion isnt, slasher jason isnt, dont quote me on this but i believe that kitana isnt meter management. although i was completely wrong about kitana i concede to that. by the way i never said puddle wasnt universal, also there arent very many combos that end with just straight up grabbing you out of the air, since combo strings that end with grabs cant be teched. the only character i can think of that ends his combos with grabs is kung lao, but i could be wrong so dont quote me on that. also reptile isnt an example of lame variations, they are similar with combos, but depending on the variation you play drastically differently, and is one of those characters you can switch variations to throw the opponent off from how drastically different you play it and you are still just as comfortable with the character. and ferra torr lackey has forward advancing armor moves that i believe but dont quote me on it take multiple hits of armor so you get get in and keep getting in using armor to stuff their wake ups. also noxious isnt a worse version of hellfire, i believe it to be better, just because you need meter with a characeter doesnt mean they arent really good, hell i personally believe it is his best variation, instead of a couple second buff it is on you at all times and adds damage to your combos. btw sorry if i sounded hostile or dickish in my first comment im kind of tired as fuck and was just voicing my opinion with out any forthought put into it other than this is my opinion

 

[wa_black]

I know about noxious reptile, i play a lot of him, but he trades damage for really good mix ups, and part of being a meter management character is choosing when to break and when to eat the damage so you can get more meter and deal the damage back, and not every character in the game is a meter management character, Balanced kenshi isnt, inferno scorpion isnt, slasher jason isnt, dont quote me on this but i believe that kitana isnt meter management. although i was completely wrong about kitana i concede to that. by the way i never said puddle wasnt universal, also there arent very many combos that end with just straight up grabbing you out of the air, since combo strings that end with grabs cant be teched. the only character i can think of that ends his combos with grabs is kung lao, but i could be wrong so dont quote me on that. also reptile isnt an example of lame variations, they are similar with combos, but depending on the variation you play drastically differently, and is one of those characters you can switch variations to throw the opponent off from how drastically different you play it and you are still just as comfortable with the character. and ferra torr lackey has forward advancing armor moves that i believe but dont quote me on it take multiple hits of armor so you get get in and keep getting in using armor to stuff their wake ups. also noxious isnt a worse version of hellfire, i believe it to be better, just because you need meter with a characeter doesnt mean they arent really good, hell i personally believe it is his best variation, instead of a couple second buff it is on you at all times and adds damage to your combos. btw sorry if i sounded hostile or dickish in my first comment im kind of tired as fuck and was just voicing my opinion with out any forthought put into it other than this is my opinion

When I said every character is a meter management character, I meant that meter management is important to the whole cast. I don't think we did a good job of defining that. On the topic of noxious reptile, is it worth it to go into the those set ups because reptile alone is meter dependent for conversions, punishes, and decent damage. I personally think that reptile has too many important things that cost meter, but at the end of the I play ninjutsu, and he is solid, so if everyone else is fine with their characters, it's no sweat off my back, I just want to see them all in tournament; I hate it when pro players say so-and-so is viable, but then use a top tier and never the viable character they just mentioned or lose with said character and switch to a top-tier. Which is why I want eveyone to be actaully viable so I can them at the highest level of play. Right now I'm looking to videos of High level ninjutsu and assasin gameplay, but they don't seem to ever make it to majors or even casuals. I don't count the fatal tournament ninjutsu footage because I don't believe they knew how to fight him during that time, but so long as kitanas buttons remain as slow as there are, I don't think I'll any footage to learn from until she gets normalized.

The mb throw is a universal re-stand option for characters that don't already have one, but the problem I was bringing up is that it is heavily swayed against you if you decide to use it in your combos. You lose damage by ending your combo early. You risk getting cornered. You lose a bar if you successfully land the grab. If your vortex option is punishable, you risked being punished. You could be left at disadvantage. The only benefit is that you re-open the opponent up, which you could do on their wake up for no meter and less risk.

The lackey thing was just an example of some variations getting outclassed. I should have used kung jin as an example instead or takeda.

I totally disagree with your last noxious comment. I believe Hellfire is much better. He can save his meter for breakers and armor, ex special launcher, aura can make vortex options safe, fireball cancel pressure, great damage, and good buttons. Also I believe that nimble is the best because nimble can get higher meterless damage guaranteed. Relying on meter doesn't automatically make you dead in the water, it decreases your chances at winning, it increases your chances of winning when you save meter.

And I apologize for not be able to properly present information or argue at the moment because it also really late over here.

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

.... Lol@ mid hitting Kitana fans, bitch gets like 20% from fullscreen if that shit's a mid I'm quitting the game -__-

I like the stance switch thing tho, a similar idea is done in DoA where if you input the hold (counter) button mid string or anything it negates the previous input. Like say you have the string 1212 but you want to do 12 into standing 1, if you input it as 12 (hold button) 12 that's what you'll get.
Could be very useful if you can do that in this game.

I also agree on the throws mid-juggle being unbreakable, then again I think the way throws were handled in this game in general is just a mess <__>

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

When I said every character is a meter management character, I meant that meter management is important to the whole cast. I don't think we did a good job of defining that. On the topic of noxious reptile, is it worth it to go into the those set ups because reptile alone is meter dependent for conversions, punishes, and decent damage. I personally think that reptile has too many important things that cost meter, but at the end of the I play ninjutsu, and he is solid, so if everyone else is fine with their characters, it's no sweat off my back, I just want to see them all in tournament; I hate it when pro players say so-and-so is viable, but then use a top tier and never the viable character they just mentioned or lose with said character and switch to a top-tier. Which is why I want eveyone to be actaully viable so I can them at the highest level of play. Right now I'm looking to videos of High level ninjutsu and assasin gameplay, but they don't seem to ever make it to majors or even casuals. I don't count the fatal tournament ninjutsu footage because I don't believe they knew how to fight him during that time, but so long as kitanas buttons remain as slow as there are, I don't think I'll any footage to learn from until she gets normalized.

The mb throw is a universal re-stand option for characters that don't already have one, but the problem I was bringing up is that it is heavily swayed against you if you decide to use it in your combos. You lose damage by ending your combo early. You risk getting cornered. You lose a bar if you successfully land the grab. If your vortex option is punishable, you risked being punished. You could be left at disadvantage. The only benefit is that you re-open the opponent up, which you could do on their wake up for no meter and less risk.

The lackey thing was just an example of some variations getting outclassed. I should have used kung jin as an example instead or takeda.

I totally disagree with your last noxious comment. I believe Hellfire is much better. He can save his meter for breakers and armor, ex special launcher, aura can make vortex options safe, fireball cancel pressure, great damage, and good buttons. Also I believe that nimble is the best because nimble can get higher meterless damage guaranteed. Relying on meter doesn't automatically make you dead in the water, it decreases your chances at winning, it increases your chances of winning when you save meter.

And I apologize for not be able to properly present information or argue at the moment because it also really late over here.

well i would rather not call it argue but rather debate, also I still think noxious reptile is heavily slept on, i think it is a very very good variation. while i dont really see hellfire as that good, but i havent seen any good hellfire scorpions so it is tough for me to say. im tired as fuck as well and havent slept in around 20 hours. well I cant say much about kitana other than she looks weak from an outsider, i dont know i dont play her, I main kenshi, i also dabble in shirai ryu takeda and gunslinger erron on top of the aforementioned noxious reptile. so far out of all the characters i play i actually think thatthe best tier and tool wise are gunslinger erron and noxious reptile. both i think are hugely under rated and slept on characters. also i agree with the high level play and people saying shit is viable but then jumping on the tier train, i would like to see variety. then again im going to try and bring my balanced kenshi to tournaments so that should bring some variety hopefully whereever i go

 

[wa_black]

well i would rather not call it argue but rather debate, also I still think noxious reptile is heavily slept on, i think it is a very very good variation. while i dont really see hellfire as that good, but i havent seen any good hellfire scorpions so it is tough for me to say. im tired as fuck as well and havent slept in around 20 hours. well I cant say much about kitana other than she looks weak from an outsider, i dont know i dont play her, I main kenshi, i also dabble in shirai ryu takeda and gunslinger erron on top of the aforementioned noxious reptile. so far out of all the characters i play i actually think thatthe best tier and tool wise are gunslinger erron and noxious reptile. both i think are hugely under rated and slept on characters. also i agree with the high level play and people saying shit is viable but then jumping on the tier train, i would like to see variety. then again im going to try and bring my balanced kenshi to tournaments so that should bring some variety hopefully whereever i go

Hellfire is super good because of fireball cancel pressure, aura can be used to blow attacks and wake ups, guaranteed chip set ups unless you can reversal out (you can't jump out), and big damage. Scorpion already has good buttons, hellfire just abuses the crap out of them.

What makes noxious good? I already know that his combo damage isn't much to write home about and that puddle cost a bar. So what would be the usual set ups? I do know that he can get like 20% of a throw while in ex gas.

Right now kitana is pretty trash, I think her fastest normals are 8 frames. I agree with her d1 being 8 frames because it has so much range, but a 30 frame 4?
25 frame overhead (b2 good range), but it has no with the exception of d3, b4, and d4, there is no real reason to blow against and even if you did, you can react to 25 frames.
b1 has no range, but is 16 frames.
f1 has like the range of scorpion's 1, but is 15 frames...
f2 has some range, but not enough to justify 19 frames, especially when it's -18 on block. That makes whiff punishing a little risky with this move. Should be around 13 frames.
u2 19 frames again, this move has less range than f2, so it should be fast than f2, and f2 shouldn't be more than 14 frames.
f3 has low range and should be about 9 frames, not 12 or a range, but because right now it's a little less than the average jab range.
d3 should be like 6 frames to let her poke out of stuff, but more importantly it's range is pretty poor.
4 30 frames... should be a third of that for 7% no follow up or cancel.
f4 should be less than 15 frames, maybe like 12, it would make for good whiff punishing, but if it stays at 15, it won't be a problem because it's mainly used within combos.
d4 shouldn't be slower than 9 frames.

Her sweep is great, -6, so pretty safe. d2 is good. d1 is good. 1, 2, 3 are also good.

If anyone can link me to videos of kitanas who make the neutral game work, I would really appreciate it. I'm trying to learn assasin, but all I've seen so far are royals looking for fan confirms, not that I blame them.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Hellfire is super good because of fireball cancel pressure, aura can be used to blow attacks and wake ups, guaranteed chip set ups unless you can reversal out (you can't jump out), and big damage. Scorpion already has good buttons, hellfire just abuses the crap out of them.

What makes noxious good? I already know that his combo damage isn't much to write home about and that puddle cost a bar. So what would be the usual set ups? I do know that he can get like 20% of a throw while in ex gas.

Right now kitana is pretty trash, I think her fastest normals are 8 frames. I agree with her d1 being 8 frames because it has so much range, but a 30 frame 4?
25 frame overhead (b2 good range), but it has no with the exception of d3, b4, and d4, there is no real reason to blow against and even if you did, you can react to 25 frames.
b1 has no range, but is 16 frames.
f1 has like the range of scorpion's 1, but is 15 frames...
f2 has some range, but not enough to justify 19 frames, especially when it's -18 on block. That makes whiff punishing a little risky with this move. Should be around 13 frames.
u2 19 frames again, this move has less range than f2, so it should be fast than f2, and f2 shouldn't be more than 14 frames.
f3 has low range and should be about 9 frames, not 12 or a range, but because right now it's a little less than the average jab range.
d3 should be like 6 frames to let her poke out of stuff, but more importantly it's range is pretty poor.
4 30 frames... should be a third of that for 7% no follow up or cancel.
f4 should be less than 15 frames, maybe like 12, it would make for good whiff punishing, but if it stays at 15, it won't be a problem because it's mainly used within combos.
d4 shouldn't be slower than 9 frames.

Her sweep is great, -6, so pretty safe. d2 is good. d1 is good. 1, 2, 3 are also good.

If anyone can link me to videos of kitanas who make the neutral game work, I would really appreciate it. I'm trying to learn assasin, but all I've seen so far are royals looking for fan confirms, not that I blame them.

wow that sucks about kitana. that explains why the my community of kenshis and your community of kitanas have been mourning lately, and i think that noxious is insanely good because of his mix ups and it is easy to refresh his gas (i usually do regular instead of EX) to enhance his combos as well as damaging the opponent more, his pressure i believe is some of the best in the game since the chip damage adds up, not to mention it makes people afraid to get near you, also i have won many matches while people were comboing me and then they get killed by the gas mid combo. that shit is so satisfying.

 

[Barrogh]

"Right" button doesn't override "left" button when pressed at the same time. Replace with old system from MK9, IGAU and every windows program ever where the latest button overrides previous even if it's still being held.

There, I'm set.
Where do I send my bug reports?

 

[exflyingbooty]

If anyone can link me to videos of kitanas who make the neutral game work, I would really appreciate it. I'm trying to learn assasin, but all I've seen so far are royals looking for fan confirms, not that I blame them.

Lol neutral

anti air with upraise it's really strong if you're in assassin/mournful
Fans for space control unless your opponent teleports then bait teleport accordingly also adding float really throws people off
Certain things like scorpion summoning stuff/d'vorah doing puddle you can use assassin strike
you can use float for shenanigans, i like using a stage jump into float because that throws people really off
in royal storm flying booty to meet air to airs
putting parry in neutral scares people off from teleporting and also reflect is good against zoners
When your opponent inches their way in throat slice works and then you can run back

that's more or less neutral so it's really linear sadly


mournful i can't help ya with tho

 

[wa_black]

Lol neutral

anti air with upraise it's really strong if you're in assassin/mournful
Fans for space control unless your opponent teleports then bait teleport accordingly also adding float really throws people off
Certain things like scorpion summoning stuff/d'vorah doing puddle you can use assassin strike
you can use float for shenanigans, i like using a stage jump into float because that throws people really off
in royal storm flying booty to meet air to airs
putting parry in neutral scares people off from teleporting and also reflect is good against zoners
When your opponent inches their way in throat slice works and then you can run back

that's more or less neutral so it's really linear sadly


mournful i can't help ya with tho

mournful can go find a hole in die for all I care, unless they come out with jade and she has variation called Mourned lol. I meant more for using her normals, but I would've had to learn uses of her specials anyway, so thank you for your input.

Also I love parry. When kitanas neutral gets fixed, she'll shut down ninjustu and may even be able fend off kung jin well. Parry basically makes all highs free. I'm going to look into now, but I wish upon a start that a parry will give you enough time to sharpen and have a little advantage.