Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

[haketh]

Theirs straight up no point in discussing this anymore, not enough of you have experience with this type of system but talk like you do. Whatever the community decides I'mma roll with it even if it's the wrong choice.

 

[trufenix]

Congratulations TYM, I hate having to say it but I agree with haketh.

 

[Compbros]

Theirs straight up no point in discussing this anymore, not enough of you have experience with this type of system but talk like you do. Whatever the community decides I'mma roll with it even if it's the wrong choice.

There's no choice but to but I'm not gonna stop fighting this. I'm already attempting to get it run at my local.

 

[Compbros]

Players shoudln't be sitting beside each other. Players shouldn't have to shard headphone jacks. They SURE AS SHIT shouldn't have to share monitor space. (no offense... but some of you "larger" dudes take up so much of the area that i see some players sitting at some of the funniest angles). They should be sitting on opposite sides of a table with their own monitor. The game itself should lend this.

You're talking a Nemo/Fchamp setup, which was great.

 

[RoboCop]

If you win your match you have the upper-hand already, why should you be able to switch again and have more of an upper hand? That doesn't make sense nor seem fair IMO.

I cannot see how in tournament play the winner of a match counterpicking the loser (I know you pick first)

The winner should have some kind of "penalty" I guess would be the word for this.

The winner of the 1st Match has :

• The Upper-hand in the set
• Momentum of the set
• And has the counter-picking option if he loses the 2nd Match.

And on top of all of these you want to give the winner the option pre-counter-pick to give themselves the upper-hand again?

This is my opinion and nothing is going to change my mind on this topic.

This does go both ways, though. Say Player A wins the first match, gaining the advantage, and is now character/variation locked. Player B wins the 2nd, so now they are locked, so player A just counterpicks for the win. Locks screw both players equally. I think at the very least, the winner should be able to do a hidden variation select if the loser changes characters before he knows what character the loser will pick. This will help nullify counterpicking (since neither player knows what the other will use) without giving the winner any kind of advantage.

 

[Juggs]

After reading all of this and discussing it with others, and seeing how much Variations impact a character and differentiate themselves from one Variation to another, I agree with 'Winner is character and variation locked'. I think this is what should rock at least in the early stages of the game.

 

[Doombawkz]

My stance is probably known by now, because its the most logical choice and there is literally no reason not to do it. Any argument to the contrary has been lacking in a way that cannot simply be excused, and at the end of the day, if the best argument you can put in opposition is what has been stated then the other side of the discussion shouldn't even exist because its sheer ignorance to whats clearly a superior alternative.

 

[Fractured_Shadow]

NRS: "Hey community, here is a great and innovative new way to combat rampent counterpicking that will also promote character loyalty."

TYM community (most of which will never be offline) "SOMTHING NEW?!?! AHHHHH KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!"

I have still yet to see a rational reason why being able to change your variation IF your opponent changes character is a bad thing... but whatever.

 

[trufenix]

I have still yet to see a rational reason why being able to change your variation IF your opponent changes character is a bad thing... but whatever.

I just want to know why a variation switch should be allowed but not a character switch. The only argument put forth is because characters change more than variations, which is malarky, but it can't be proved until the game comes out so its whatever.

 

[NYCj360]

Variations make a huge difference, I am for keeping character and variation locked for winner.

 

[Doombawkz]

Variations make a huge difference, I am for keeping character and variation locked for winner.

Reptile

 

[trufenix]

Reptile

You don't think there will be a HUGE difference between Flash Reptile and Inviso Reptile?

 

[Compbros]

I just want to know why a variation switch should be allowed but not a character switch. The only argument put forth is because characters change more than variations, which is malarky, but it can't be proved until the game comes out so its whatever.

A new character poses a completely new moveset, as in there is nothing at all similar between Kano A and the winner switching to Raiden B. While a variation changes things characters still hold many universal strings and specials whereas Kano shares nothing with Raiden. Fighting Raiden A, B, or C you can always say "he has Superman dive and lightning projectile and these strings, I have to be wary of them". Switching to Kano you lose that. That's why a character switch shouldn't be allowed.

 

[SaltShaker]

You don't think there will be a HUGE difference between Flash Reptile and Inviso Reptile?

Not the type of difference that there is as switching from Flash Reptile to Ancestral Kung Jin.

 

[Prinz]

No. No we can't play the game first. That is the purpose of this thread and the discussion itself. Here's what playing the game first leads to.

"Community, should we play tournaments with or without interactables? You know what? Lets play the game first with them on and decide if we'll turn them off." Needless to say, there wasn't even a discussion anymore once we started "playing" already. And imo it was the wrong choice, but it didn't matter because it was already too late.

That's why we need to decide first, and play second.

Yet, 3/5 standard was decided after the game began to be played.

 

[Doombawkz]

You don't think there will be a HUGE difference between Flash Reptile and Inviso Reptile?

No.
He changes one move.

 

[Compbros]

Yet, 3/5 standard was decided after the game began to be played.

Because that's a speed of the game type thing, something we as a community can't know before hand without playing it. It's not the same. We know what variations do, we don't know what the specifically do to each and every character but we know the system overall. We learn nothing waiting.


Edit: Also, 2/3 vs. 3/5 just adds at most two games, there's strategy involved because you have an extra game to play around with but it doesn't change the very nature of gameplay the way variations or interactibles do.

 

[Doombawkz]

Lets be real here, so far we've only seen 2 or maybe 3 characters whose strings actually change at all with variation: Takeda, Ferra/Torr, and maybe Kung Jin. If I'm missing any lemme know, but otherwise, 90% of the characters stay the same with only 10% of them changing.

Like in exact numbers.

Likewise, for most characters, 90% of their kit stays the same while 10% doesn't.
That 10% will change how they are played, but the character still has the same strings, mostly the same specials, and they pick first. Unless you counterpick yourself, there is no issue that isn't made worse by a double lock.

 

[SaltShaker]

Yet, 3/5 standard was decided after the game began to be played.

If you roll a pair of dice long enough, you're bound to land on 12 eventually.


I've seen one decent point made on full lock in 17 pages. Not diving back into this hell hole of a discussion until I hear a legitimate argument for why full lock should be enforced outside of dinosaur logic. Till then I read and chirp in occasionally.

 

[Prinz]

Because that's a speed of the game type thing, something we as a community can't know before hand without playing it. It's not the same. We know what variations do, we don't know what the specifically do to each and every character but we know the system overall. We learn nothing waiting.


Edit: Also, 2/3 vs. 3/5 just adds at most two games, there's strategy involved because you have an extra game to play around with but it doesn't change the very nature of gameplay the way variations or interactibles do.

This was not my point, but I get your argument.
At first I advocated for full lock, but it takes so much from the fun of the game. I consider every variation a different character, there's no denial in that. If Scorpion had 2 variations in MK9 one of which had a +3 d3 and another remained - whatever it is, I assure you, not only the first were picked more, if not always, but it'd be the more objectively viable variation of the character. The same here. Even if Kung Lao B has one single normal that's one frame better, it'll always be picked over the others.
However, I agree with variation unlock rules just for the fun factor. Objectively, every variation is a different character.
Btw, I consider Kung Lao a bad example because his variations seem the most alike to me. Reptile will devour though.

 

[Mind Flex]

"Variations make a huge difference." I do agree with this, but I don't agree that variations should be locked. Picking out of 3 variations is not the same as being able to pick any character based on match ups.

There are two major reasons behind having variations.
1. To offer more play styles for each character.
2. To prevent switching characters based on match ups. (Counter picking/Character Loyalty)

If player A beats player B then player B should be allowed to change anything they want.
If player B selects a new character, they are probably doing it because they think it will increase their chances of winning.
If player A is stuck until they lose than there is no point in sticking with that character when can just counter pick with anyone on the roster.

Allowing a player to change variations after a win rewards that player for being loyal to their character and does not provide the same options that completely changing a character can.

It is also my opinion that a player might be willing to fight out a less than favorable match up if their preferred character has an option to make the match up more bearable, even if it is still a losing one. (This last part doesn't really have to do with variation lock, but may hopefully create less character counter picking and more players that are masters with an individual character.)

 

[Eddy Wang]

I look at the results and... sigh...

Do what you've always did best TYM, then cry later on.

 

[RoboCop]

"Variations make a huge difference." I do agree with this, but I don't agree that variations should be locked. Picking out of 3 variations is not the same as being able to pick any character based on match ups.

There are two major reasons behind having variations.
1. To offer more play styles for each character.
2. To prevent switching characters based on match ups. (Counter picking/Character Loyalty)

If player A beats player B then player B should be allowed to change anything they want.
If player B selects a new character, they are probably doing it because they think it will increase their chances of winning.
If player A is stuck until they lose than there is no point in sticking with that character when can just counter pick with anyone on the roster.

Allowing a player to change variations after a win rewards that player for being loyal to their character and does not provide the same options that completely changing a character can.

It is also my opinion that a player might be willing to fight out a less than favorable match up if their preferred character has an option to make the match up more bearable, even if it is still a losing one. (This last part doesn't really have to do with variation lock, but may hopefully create less character counter picking and more players that are masters with an individual character.)

This might be my favorite post in all 17 pages of this thread. It's clear, concise, and effectively refutes one of the major arguments against variation unlocks.

 

[Bilbo11]

What if the loser gets a free variation change, winner stays locked, but then if the loser changes char the winner stays the same, picks a variation then the loser get to pick their variation based on what they see?

 

[Compbros]

What if the loser gets a free variation change, winner stays locked, but then if the loser changes char the winner stays the same, picks a variation then the loser get to pick their variation based on what they see?

That's the exact scenario we've been presenting since the beginning. It's easy.