What are Fundamentals? - An honest Question

[PainForge]

I think at the end of the day everyone is going to have their own exact interpretation of what fundamentals are. But I think most people would agree on what it takes to be well rounded at something like fighting games. That's why in my opinion losing to another player that has amassed the exact same knowledge you have, doesn't necessarily make the loser a bad player.

In kind of goes without saying, but forces that pertain to how our physiology interacts with our environment, can play a big role as well. Nerve tension, concentration, body temperature and even emotion, can all contribute to the way one performs within something as frenetic as a fighting game.

 

[Peckapowa]

Fundamentals in a basketball player:
Good ball handling, passing , correct consistent shooting, teamwork, and game knowledge.

So it's a mastery, of the universal traits ( non related to physical talent) which enable success in the game. Some of these are subjective, such as correct shooting. Reggie miller's shot was not perfectly fundamental but he was on of the greatest shooters ever.

In any sort of mastery, usually their are universal traits required, I.e. Patience discipline, precision, consistency, feel.

I would say these correlate to fighters

So the universal traits which correlate to success in fighters Imo would be:

Space control
Footsie
Patience
Analyzation of opponent
Playing matchups/neutral perfectly/ developing reactionary play
Execution
Defense
Pressure ability
Punishment

Some players aren't as complete as others but still find success because their character is so powerful it only requires some of the traits above.

An example of this would be Shaquille o'neal. He isn't a great shooter or handler ( for his size he's great but universally no) but he just powers his way and is one of the most dominant players in history. It's kind of like doomsday players just power their way in without having space control or footsies or forced to play really complicated neutrals. They just power in and dunk it.

Some players simply rely on great pressure and reads more heavily then a more universally complete balanced playstyle.

One of the reasons people frown on inj. Is because the op tools overshadow things like space control, footsies, and reactionary play... Imo the most skillful arts along with playing opponent

One of the universal things I discussed here in terms of mastery would be "feel". I think this is one of the later things achieved. What happens when players do something for so long it is all the fundamentals become reactionary over time. In basketball, you stop thinking about shooting, passing, ball handling, etc. because you have seen every situation before snd it becomes ingrained within you, along with the skills. It submerges from the conscious mind into the reactionary subconscious mind which then frees your conscious mind to adapt to the specific situations and think about things like how to take advantage of the pop. And situation. Because everything becomes reactionary the game becomes slower to you. This would be referred to as the zone imo. Even great players aren't always in the zone. I think what happens here is the conscious mind becomes clouded and/or un centralized in focus, concerned with various plights such as "doubt or fear", and that inherently causes the conscious mind to bottleneck the persons subconscious abilities which are in grained with in them. In lamens terms "clear your mind, Neo." The mind must be in turn, centralized, thus we have the term "focused"

Golf is a great example of this. There a seemingly infinite number of angles, ground consistency, distance, swing speed, and club combinations to deal with. But due to vast experience, a player chooses a setup, club, swing path, and uses their feel ingrained within them to execute it. It's why golf is awesome and pro players amaze me. The level of mastery is high

 

[Doombawkz]

Its something that can be carried over to every game. Its more so about making smart decisions you learn about with time. I highly doubt you jump a lot for no reason right? But im willing to bet the first time you played you werent so shy about pressing them buttons. Also, anti airs, whiff punishing, and patience/defense is a part of every fighting game. Its why people like Justin Wong and Chris G do well in these games early on. They typically do not fall off until match ups are developed along with the meta.

Fair enough.
So then why do some players supposidly "lack" fundamentals? If all it is is the basics, then anyone would have strong fundamentals.

 

[DarthArma]

 

[Peckapowa]

not the best analogy

something you probably don't have

Sure it is, their is player ability and character/game limitation, where in basketball there are fundamental skills and athletic limitation, though sometimes a player's athleticism I.e. Giant hands can limit their skill.

Regardless I was just trying to take a jab at doomsday players, primarily eldriken

 

[TotteryManx]

Fair enough.
So then why do some players supposidly "lack" fundamentals? If all it is is the basics, then anyone would have strong fundamentals.

Well, thats a entirely different debate that could possibly consist of; less experience, nerves, and being less patient, to name a few. Also, not anyone could have strong fundamentals...depends on if theyre willing to put in the time to develop it.

 

[Johnny San]

It's a confusing concept. I've already scrapped a few scenarios that I typed.

I think that people are just using fundamentals as a term for a person who, essentially, is good at a certain game. They understand how a game works and use those mechanics very well. I think saying anything beyond that leads to vagueness and contradictions.

 

[Doombawkz]

Well, thats a entirely different debate that could possibly consist of; less experience, nerves, and being less patient, to name a few.

Well what about people whose characters don't utilize all of the aspects of "fundamentals"? Do they have weak fundamentals?

 

[RemainSolid]

Basics.

 

[Briggs8417]

Well what about people whose characters don't utilize all of the aspects of "fundamentals"? Do they have weak fundamentals?

No you can never blame character design on a person's fundamentals. If you don't have all the tools the work with, how do you expect to use them?

 

[TotteryManx]

Well what about people whose characters don't utilize all of the aspects of "fundamentals"? Do they have weak fundamentals?

Of course not. Obviously their character may lack the tools, like having a strong AA and such.

 

[Doombawkz]

Of course not. Obviously their character may lack the tools, like having a strong AA and such.

What about characters who don't rely on those tools?

Its not just what are fundamentals, but if we are going to debate who has the best of them, we have to be able to explain why someone doesn't have enough of them.

 

[Briggs8417]

What about characters who don't rely on those tools?

Its not just what are fundamentals, but if we are going to debate who has the best of them, we have to be able to explain why someone doesn't have enough of them.

I don't truly know of characters who don't rely on tools like that. Typically bad characters don't have enough of them and great ones have whole boatloads of them.

 

[PainForge]

Actually I have a question that is in some way relative to this discussion. Is it possible for someone to always play safe throughout a match and win consistently? In other words take no risks at all.

 

[Briggs8417]

Actually I have a question that is in some way relative to this discussion. Is it possible for someone to always play safe throughout a match and win consistently? In other words take no risks at all.

yeah it's totally possible, some characters are totally set up for just that. A good example would be SFIV Guile. He is given all the tools necessary to just sit back throw fb's and aa jump in's to keep you out all day.

 

[Doombawkz]

I don't truly know of characters who don't rely on tools like that. Typically bad characters don't have enough of them and great ones have whole boatloads of them.

1) Well, it means things like understanding spacing, defense, anti-airs, reading player tendencies, ground game, execution, etc etc.


2) "I think a good way to determine what's involved in fundamentals is to look for things that are needed to be good in any fighting game. 2D or 3D. Weapons based or not. Realistic or not. Projectiles or not. Certain abilities will apply no matter what kind of fighting game you're playing."

Going off of these definitions, Bane doesn't really play by the conventional rules.
Thinking about it, neither does Dhalsim. They both play in a way that kinda depends on other things.

 

[Briggs8417]

1) Well, it means things like understanding spacing, defense, anti-airs, reading player tendencies, ground game, execution, etc etc.


2) "I think a good way to determine what's involved in fundamentals is to look for things that are needed to be good in any fighting game. 2D or 3D. Weapons based or not. Realistic or not. Projectiles or not. Certain abilities will apply no matter what kind of fighting game you're playing."

Going off of these definitions, Bane doesn't really play by the conventional rules.

Oh so we are referring to characters who are lacking tools, sorry I misunderstood. Well in that case you have to just watch the way a person plays the character and what they are doing to be effective with it.

 

[Doombawkz]

Oh so we are referring to characters who are lacking tools, sorry I misunderstood. Well in that case you have to just watch the way a person plays the character and what they are doing to be effective with it.

Lacking tools is a bad way to put it. He has all the tools everyone else does, he simply doesn't need to use them, and eliminates them from being used by some other people.

So if he doesn't need them, does he "lack" them? If someone like Zod doesn't need anything but low air ball to beat Lex, does Zod "lack fundamentals" because he isn't using all of whats listed? What about Lex, who doesn't get to use them? This is my main concern with the basics, that after a while they take a backseat to specialized skills that, while drawing their roots from the basics, aren't based in a basic-favorable system. Developments happen because the basics cease to be enough, and great players aren't the first to master the basics so much as move beyond them.

So the question comes back: If basics are all thats needed to have strong fundamentals, how does anyone truly "lack" fundamentals?

 

[JDM]

Rreactions, footsies, anti-airs, proper spacing, reading opponents, adapting, normal usage, knowing how to use all this in a match... and can effortlessly apply it under pressure.

Pretty much are all fundamentals. Street Fighter players have great fundamentals.

 

[Briggs8417]

Lacking tools is a bad way to put it. He has all the tools everyone else does, he simply doesn't need to use them, and eliminates them from being used by some other people.

So if he doesn't need them, does he "lack" them? If someone like Zod doesn't need anything but low air ball to beat Lex, does Zod "lack fundamentals" because he isn't using all of whats listed? What about Lex, who doesn't get to use them? This is my main concern with the basics, that after a while they take a backseat to specialized skills that, while drawing their roots from the basics, aren't based in a basic-favorable system. Developments happen because the basics cease to be enough, and great players aren't the first to master the basics so much as move beyond them.

So the question comes back: If basics are all thats needed to have strong fundamentals, how does anyone truly "lack" fundamentals?

Ok so we are starting to mix specific character tools with fundamentals. A character is given moves that are either good to use or aren't. The ones that are good are typically the ones that you could use on a fundamental to your advantage. That's different from your understanding of the basics of a game. A character can have an AA, but if you don't know how to use it, then it becomes useless.

Now referring to not NEEDING to use all the tools you are given, that's kind of going back to character design, it's so vital man.

 

[M2Dave]

Something that Batgirl and Martian Manhunter lack.

But that Wonder Chef is a master of.

 

[Evil Canadian]

The true answer as to what fundamentals are is really just how good are you at street fighter 2.

 

[Doombawkz]

Ok so we are starting to mix specific character tools with fundamentals. A character is given moves that are either good to use or aren't. The ones that are good are typically the ones that you could use on a fundamental to your advantage. That's different from your understanding of the basics of a game. A character can have an AA, but if you don't know how to use it, then it becomes useless.

Now referring to not NEEDING to use all the tools you are given, that's kind of going back to character design, it's so vital man.

Reactions, footsies, anti-airs, proper spacing, reading opponents, adapting, normal usage, knowing how to use all this in a match... and can effortlessly apply it under pressure.

This is where my problem stems with the idea that its all basics. Sure there are things that are effective, some ideas that exist in every game, but not everything carries equal weight in every game, for every character. And you are playing these characters, so you can't just disregard them and say "its just basics" because that doesn't work out for every character, in every game. A character who depends on parries needs more of one thing than another. A character who depends on armor or long limbs depends on some things less than others. Because not every character is the same, character tools NEED to be considered.

I can't fathom that its as cut, dry, and simple as "Here is a list. As long as you follow this list, you have strong fundamentals."
So then what makes someone else have less fundamentals, so long as they have everything on the list? Is it just they aren't as good at one thing? What if they give up one and are better in another due to their character? We have to stop pretending that every game, every character, and every player can fit into a to-do list and all be equal and yet not. This is why I started this topic, not only to see what everyone considered to be fundamentals, but also to see how narrowly defined they are.

Something that Batgirl and Martian Manhunter lack.

But that Wonder Chef is a master of.

Apparently they don't lack it, because its simply the basics. Everyone has them, or so I'm seeing. It would be impossible for anyone of any competent level to be lacking in fundamentals anymore than any other person or character because they can use the basic tools and apply them.

 

[Doombawkz]

OP,

Your posts spark intelligent debates and I always enjoy reading what you have to say.

 

[THTB]

Spoiler

fun·da·men·tal
ˌfəndəˈmen(t)əl/
adjective
adjective: fundamental

1. 1.
   forming a necessary base or core; of central importance.
   "the protection of fundamental human rights"
   synonyms: basic, underlying, core, foundational, rudimentary, elemental,elementary, basal, root; More
   
   antonyms: secondary, unimportant
   • affecting or relating to the essential nature of something or the crucial point about an issue.
     "the fundamental problem remains that of the housing shortage"
   • so basic as to be hard to alter, resolve, or overcome.
     "the theories are based on a fundamental error"

noun
noun: fundamental; plural noun: fundamentals

1. 1.
   a central or primary rule or principle on which something is based.
   "two courses cover the fundamentals of microbiology"
   synonyms: basics, essentials, rudiments, foundations, basic principles, first principles, preliminaries; More
   
   • a fundamental note, tone, or frequency.

With the given definitions of the word 'fundamental' as a noun, it is essentially the basic abilities required to even have a chance at being successful. In fighting games, this means things like space control, defense, reactions, ability to read, etc. These things carry over from fighting game to fighting game. The idea of these do not alter, no matter what game you are playing.

Having good fundamentals simply means you have a good understanding of the universal basics.