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The Argument Against Variation Lock

The PantyChrist

Rest in Pantiez
I still feel that Character Lock is the way forward. I feel like we should be embracing the new Variation mechanic as opposed to shunning it with a Variation Lock.

Except the winner will only get to pick between two variants, if the loser changes character - and even then, the loser gets the final choice and thus holds the advantage. It's actually not hugely different to what we do already.

With Variation Lock, the Loser would get to pick a character and a variation while the winner is stuck. How is this any different to the loser getting to pick a character and a stage in Injustice/MK9?
No one is shunning variations. In any tournament ft3 you will not see every character. It's how it is. There will also be hype sets at tournaments where people don't change character and boring ones where they do.
I also think the spirit of winner is locked and loser can change is that it gives the loser an opportunity to make the adjustment, be it minor or major
 

HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
For the umpteenth time, I know, I just don't agree. What part of my post implied that I don't understand this?

If I switch characters because I think it would give me a better chance of adapting, and my opponent switches variations, then I'm not longer adapting to what just beat me. In fact, I'm not doing much adaptation since I have to deal with something new now.

If you're going to be a condescending and imply that someone misunderstood your point, make sure not to spot the irony first.
Well sort of, it depends on the situation. If the opponent is doing something variation-specific then sure, but if what they're doing is specific to the player (i.e. jumping or waking up a lot) then that's something that carries over that you can still adapt to. I understand your point though.

Adapting is a grey-area at this time because we don't know for sure how greatly Variations differ, but if your main gripe with Character Lock is that in one scenario you won't be able to adapt to what your opponent did then it doesn't sound like you're super against it.

By the way:
Here is my thing:

If I'm playing against someone and they beat me in the first game, the idea is to see if I can come back and adjust, be it through sticking to my character, or changing characters.
This part of your post implied that you didn't understand, so I guess I'm not the one who needs to spot the irony.
 
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HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
No one is shunning variations. In any tournament ft3 you will not see every character.
When I say shunning variations I mean that, with Variation Lock, we'd be treating the Variations as separate characters, as opposed to variations of the same character.

If we used Variation Lock then there'd be no point in having Variations in the first place.

This perfectly sums up what I meant:
The way I see it, each character has a core moveset, and the variations add to that core moveset.

Think of variations like attachments to a firearm.
- A sniper rifle is a zoning weapon. Variation 1 puts an underbarrel shotgun attachment to give it some close-range power, but it's not a full-fledged shotgun, the sniper rifle is still primarily a zoning tool, and the added weight makes it harder to keep steady. Variation 2 cuts the scope for the iron sights, now it is more like an assault/sniper rifle mix, but it sacrifices some long-range ability to be more rounded out in the midrange footsie game.

- An assault rifle is a jack-of-all-trades. Variation 1 adds a grenade launcher to increase its mid-range power, variation 2 gives a precisional scope for better zoning, variation 3 adds an extended magazine to buff up its natural power at the cost of what the other two variations would give.

- A shotgun is a close-range brawler. Variation 1 can add explosive shells for damage, variation 2 can add a muzzle attachment to round it out for mid-range combat, variation three could add an underbarrel flamethrower for pyromaniacs.

- A light machine gun is a pressure machine. Variation 1 adds a bigger ammo box for better pressure, variation 2 adds a grip attachment for better stability (or, movement), variation 3 adds a flare launcher for confusion (a neat projectile for the projectile-less character).

- And then there's this freaky weapon: the Kaballin's MMH-A1. It has all the rounded-out power of an assault rifle (variation 1), it can transform itself into a sniper rifle (variation 2), and it has a separate barrel for firing special shotgun shells (variation 3).
Though I think this gun is DLC, if I am not mistaken. :DOGE



Variations are attachments to a core character, not an entirely different moveset. It changes match-ups and it makes having to learn your character a different process with the rules quoted above, but that is the nature of the beast! That's how it is with variations in this untraditional game.

NRS added these variations for a reason, and we should not just brush them aside in favor of the traditional rules of other popular fighting games. By the inclusion of these variations, MKX is not traditional. NRS knew that they could make something fun and potentially very hype by adding the variation stuff! To limit variations with a winner-is-always-variation-locked rule is to defeat the purpose of variations.

More fun and hype = Better recognition (probably) and longer MKX life.
Less fun and hype = When's Injustice 2?

Accept the variations,
Embrace the variations,
Love the variations.

My life does not revolver around firearms.
 

coolwhip

Master
By the way:

This part of your post implied that you didn't understand, so I guess I'm not the one who needs to spot the irony.
This was a general point about fighting games, not about MKX. If I lose the first game, I want to adjust, be it through sticking to the character I lost the first game with or changing MY character since I would feel it would give me a better chance to adjust. What the fuck does that have to do with MKX, variations, or whether my opponent changes variations or not?
 

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
There is nothing "bad" about it, but why force the winner to stick with their variation if the opponent changes to counter? They are the same character, but you should be able to change to compete.
Hmm thats like letting the winner switch stages on MK9. Lets say a Kitana player wouldnt like a Kabal player to switch stages when they win lol. Yeah its the same char but circumstances changes the MU.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
I honestly feel like much of the argument for variation locking still stems way too much from looking at the game as you would a game without variations...instead of looking at the ones that have dealt with this before.

I understand these games are not Mortal Kombat, but seriously, the concept is not a new thing, and has been tackled in the past (largely in the exact same way in most cases that are exactly like MKX).

We really should be paying attention to the ones here posting about it that have knowledge of/experience with this concept.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Hmm thats like letting the winner switch stages on MK9. Lets say a Kitana player wouldnt like a Kabal player to switch stages when they win lol. Yeah its the same char but circumstances changes the MU.
And guess what? Something like this is allowed for the top-played fighting game on the market right now.

Another thing to really take in is that there are still core aspects of characters that REMAIN INTACT. There are core specials, and only certain strings are altered between variations. Which means there's still a large chance that a certain variation really messes with a character, no matter what variation they choose.

It's kinda like Pokémon, where there's a number of viable sets for a mon, but regardless of the set, the mon may be countered completely by another mon's specific set or just the mon altogether.
 

Jim

Emperor of the Moon
With Variation Lock, the Loser would get to pick a character and a variation while the winner is stuck. How is this any different to the loser getting to pick a character and a stage in Injustice/MK9?
Because changing your own variant is only changing something for your character, choosing the stage you are choosing tools for both yourself and your opponent. We do allow going back to the stage select in those games but in IGAU only in a 'let fate decide' manor in that you might get something you might not.
 

Protagonist_1

Champion
Long Post Incoming:
I feel this question really comes down to how much the variations actually "vary" or deviate from the other variations. There's generally two ways it's going to be when the game drops:

1. Each variation varies slightly
2. Each variation varies enough that when switched can change a match-up significantly

To add to this, each character in the game (all 30 of them) can either fall in category one or category 2.

If in category 1, changing a variation would only slightly increase/decrease a matchup, making variation somewhat insignificant if dealing with bad matchup.

If in category 2, changing variation can increase the chances of changing a matchup, making it somewhat significant when dealing with a bad matchup.

I'm sure NRS input variation to encourage touney players to stick with their character, and be encouraged to use a variation (and have more options) of said character in a bad match up instead of going to a new one (as in a new character).

I feel both @AK L0rdoftheFLY and @coolwhip make great points, but the tourney rule that is use should discourage character switching (traditional counterpick), but not counter-picking in general...since counterpicking will always be an issue in any fighting game. Counterpicking can only be truly be avoided by balance by said developers (in this case NRS and how they balance the variation in category 1 or 2), and I feel the rules mentioned above will not discourage counterpicking, only character-switching.

So who's side are you on?
I'm leaning towards Lordofthefly's take and here's why:

Let's say you just lost a match. You know all 3 variations or your character, but also know a character that can counterpick the variation your opponent is using.

If you know your opponent can switch variations if you pick another character, wouldn't you be encouraged to switch variation instead, so you can adapt to your opponents variation (that is locked), as opposed to picking another character, in which your opponent can change variation removing your advantage to adapt to what you lost to?

The following scenario penalizes the loser to switch characters, and encourages the loser to chose a variation instead. Doesn't this scenario follow the reason why variation was implemented in the first place?

This is a rhtorical question, and perhaps I'm not seeing something that others aren't, but I'm sure NRS wanted players to stick to the same character, and have variations as options. They did not want players to change characters.

This is my thoughts about the whole debate. I think most are looking at the question wrong. It's not which option discourages counterpicking it's about which option discourages switching characters.
 

HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
Because changing your own variant is only changing something for your character, choosing the stage you are choosing changes tools for both yourself and your opponent.
True, but changing a variant can also change a MU (just like a stage), and thereby change the opponent's use of their tools - which is just as significant.

Here's an example but it's kind of long-winded.
E.g. A variation with both rushdown and zoning tools just beat a zoning variation, while using mostly its' rushdown tools. The Loser then switches to an even better rushdown variation, in which case the Winner now has to use their zoning tools that were previously unused.

In this case, you could say that the tools have changed for both characters as the Winner now also has access to a different set of tools, because it would have been unwise for them to use their zoning tools against a character with better zoning tools. It would've been like Shazam trying to outzone Sinestro.

Of course, this is just an example of an extreme scenario but I think you get the point.
 
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Jack Burton

Apprentice
I'm not saying the delay would be the worst thing. That was only in relation to counter picking. My main point is the tools are different enough that switching variants makes it different enough that you are basically letting the winner pick between two other characters. If we let that then why character lock at all?
One reason I can think of for having character lock outside of the current discussion is the barrier of entry for newcomers would be much lower under a character lock ruleset than no character lock. If there wasn't any character lock for the winner, new players will have a tough time against advanced players because they will have to master more than one character plus all variations associated with each character to be competitive. Matchup knowledge will cripple newcomers (kind of how new players aren't attracted to Tekken Tag 2 because of the knowledge barrier). Newbies may find the character knowledge needed to be competitive daunting under rules that support open character selection at any time.

Open character selection for the winner may be an interesting rule structure for advanced players, though.

Just a thought. Hope that made sense.
 

Shark Tank

I don't actually play these games
I've been following this thread all day at work. Very interesting discussion. I'll comment when I get home because they're probably going to bock this site tomorrow.:DOGE
 

d3v

SRK
Why encourage counter picking? We will just have Rooftop Day/Pit cycles all over again but this time with variations instead of stages.

My way makes the better player win with their character and options available to them.
Because counter-picking is a valid option in competitive fighting games.
Question, have any of you that are for variation lock played any games that have had variations before *SamSho, Melty, Arcana, Dark Awake ETC*
I'm guessing no.
True, but changing a variant can also change a MU (just like a stage), and thereby change the opponent's use of their tools - which is just as significant.
And so? This happens in any sort of game that has variations.

@haketh already game a good example of this from Arcana Heart.
 

haketh

Champion
Honestly until alot of you saying Variations should be locked get some experience with games that ACTUALLY use this mechanic plz stop talking. It's frustrating this exact same issue has not only happened before & was solved extremely quickly with no effort thus setting a precedent but people wanna rock the boat because.......why? To many people with their experience being only MK talking about rules for FG when you need EXP with this kinda stuff.
 

SHAOLIN

内部冲突
I was gonna come into this thread and push the idea of characters / variation locked for winner but it seemed like a redundant and somewhat pointless argument so I'll choose not to argue that one.

I will say (I don't know who suggested this) that I like the idea of if loser goes to the character select screen, the winner is allowed to change variation but he must pick first.

I don't know what it is about that idea but I seem to like it so I will like to see that in locals because you know that's where it should at start....... locals not majors or regionals.
 

Jim

Emperor of the Moon
True, but changing a variant can also change a MU (just like a stage), and thereby change the opponent's use of their tools - which is just as significant.

Here's an example but it's kind of long-winded.
E.g. A variation with both rushdown and zoning tools just beat a zoning variation, while using mostly its' rushdown tools. The Loser then switches to an even better rushdown variation, in which case the Winner now has to use their zoning tools that were previously unused.

In this case, you could say that the tools have changed for both characters as the Winner now also has access to a different set of tools, because it would have been unwise for them to use their zoning tools against a character with better zoning tools. It would've been like Shazam trying to outzone Sinestro.

Of course, this is just an example of an extreme scenario but I think you get the point.
We already allow the loser to chose something that will make the winners tools no longer work as well, another character.
 

KIllaByte

PSN: playakid700. Local name: BFGC MonkeyBizness
This suggested method in the OP could skew towards unfairness, due to the fact that some characters variations will be more drastically different from its other variations, than other characters variations.
Some will transform a characters abilities more than other characters variations will, in comparison to eachother.
If "Blazer Smoke" was horrible at dealing with projectile based keepaway, and somebody wanted to counterpick him with a good zoner, "blazer smoke" could just switch to "Dank Smoke" who might be amazing at dealing with zoning.

Depends upon how big the variation differences are.
 

d3v

SRK
This suggested method in the OP could skew towards unfairness, due to the fact that some characters variations will be more drastically different from its other variations, than other characters variations.
Some will transform a characters abilities more than other characters variations will, in comparison to eachother.
If "Blazer Smoke" was horrible at dealing with projectile based keepaway, and somebody wanted to counterpick him with a good zoner, "blazer smoke" could just switch to "Dank Smoke" who might be amazing at dealing with zoning.
This already happens in other fighting games with similar variation systems. Variations will always affect match ups and can act as a counter to a counter pick. These are however, still allowed in those games.
 

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
This already happens in other fighting games with similar variation systems. Variations will always affect match ups and can act as a counter to a counter pick. These are however, still allowed in those games.
We understand that but at the same time we are our own community, we dont have to copy/follow the popular guys!
 

d3v

SRK
We understand that but at the same time we are our own community, we dont have to copy/follow the popular guys!
The point was to illustrate that there was already a known, tournament proven solution to the issue at hand.

That said, doing things differently simply for the sake of being different isn't really a good look. There's a reason stuff that's been done for years now in other games/tournaments has been done, which is because, well, they work and therefore have been accepted by the communities around these games.
 

HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
And so? This happens in any sort of game that has variations.
Again, bruh. You keep hopping into the middle of my conversations lol. I was talking about how Variation Lock is like letting the Loser choose a character and a stage in Injustice/MK9.
 

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
The point was to illustrate that there was already a known, tournament proven solution to the issue at hand.

That said, doing things differently simply for the sake of being different isn't really a good look. There's a reason stuff that's been done for years now in other games/tournaments has been done, which is because, well, they work and therefore have been accepted by the communities around these games.
Agreed. I didnt mean to do things just to be dif... I just feel like variation could potentially change MUs to drastically therefore what has been working for other games/communities wont work for MKX.