MB Throws, 50/50's everywhere?

[Perfect Legend]

lol, salty about Batgirl much?

Your 50/50 definition is way off. A 50/50 means that the offensive player is putting the defender in a situation where they must choose between 2 options, if they choose wrong, they get hit (opened up), if they choose right they can escape/block/counter the situation. By blocking the 50/50 you already escaped it.

No my definition is correct. 50/50 is risk reward where the turn out is equal on both sides. Not because you have to choose between one option or another.

If thats the case then choosing between jump or ground normal is 50/50 too

 

[Rip Torn]

No my definition is correct. 50/50 is risk reward where the turn out is equal on both sides. Not because you have to choose between one option or another.

If thats the case then choosing between jump or ground normal is 50/50 too

I'm sorry my man but you are wrong. Nothing more I can say.

 

[Perfect Legend]

I'm sorry my man but you are wrong. Nothing more I can say.

According to your opinion. K

 

[Barrogh]

If thats the case then choosing between jump or ground normal is 50/50 too

If ground normal should be blocked differently than jump one and there are no other options than to guess, then yeah.

I don't know about Tekken community, but I'm fairly sure that TYM uses term "50/50" in its most basic and mundane meaning - when it's about two random outcomes with equal chance of happening. That's pretty much how I think people used these words for the last century or so. Ofc terminology may be different in different communities. In the end it's only important if the term is agreed upon.

By the way, if you base your definition around risks and rewards, then you should include combo damage of both parties (for unsafe mixups) and chance of returning mixup opening you up (and it's damage) for safe on block mixups rather than just amount of options that get you blown up should opponent guess right

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

But then you have characters that are all very similar. NRS has amazing character variety. This innately leads to imbalance no matter how hard you try. If MKX were a game with all Ryus and Kens then the game would be balanced but more boring.

Plus you wouldn't be able to drink in 16bit's tears. But then you wouldn't be able to see him triumph against bad MU's either. I think that is part of the fun of watching 16bit play. You get to see the struggles and the victories. What a ride. But hopefully MKX doesn't have anything as bad as Catwoman vs Bane in it. But with all of the characters and all of the variations it is bound to happen.

Oh I agree.

There SHOULD be an imbalance to the types. But as you said, it shouldn't be as overwhelming as it is currently. MK9 and Injustice both have the super extreme MU's where one character just has no chance. Those are the things that suck for the game.

 

[Peckapowa]

PL's case makes sense to some degree, I think it kind of just overcomplicates things unnecessarily. It does however put into perspective the amount batgirl is at an advantage when doing mixups as opposed to the perosn taking them.

 

[Peckapowa]

You stay complaining about Batgirl, Enough dammit
And no your definition is wrong

Batgirl is kind of terrifying even in the hands of a mediocre player, because 1 wrong guess(anti-air but she teleports), blocked jump in, or failed dash punish (when she dashes up and does her shoryuken) especially near the corner can lead to imminent death. And calling her vortex fifty-fifty doesn't really do her justice because there are so many tricks she can do instead

 

[ChaosTheory]

50/50 to me is simply talking about the defender's odds of defending an attack correctly. Either block high or block low. What the aggressor gets out of the situation after that is a different issue. Now you're talking risk-reward. You're talking about dumb risk-reward and balanced risk-reward. In Injustice, from what I've seen, there's a shit-ton of dumb risk-reward. A character throws out a 50/50 and if it lands, they get a full combo. If it's blocked, they're completely safe. That's dumb balance to me.

MKD was chock-full of 50/50's. Everybody had them. Difference was if you were wrong, you ate shit. Scorpion in MK9 has an MKD-type 50/50. If he hits you with either b2 or f4~Spear, you eat good damage into his vortex. But if you block either of those, you can fuck Scorpion with full damage. I agree with that.

If a 50/50 is going to be safe when you're wrong, it shouldn't pay off in full when you're right. A safe 50/50 should be more like one that leads to one or two hits and a knockdown or something like that.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

why jesus l0l

You're right. That would be ridiculous to consider.

 

[Insuperable]

PL's definition isn't incorrect. He's just taking into account the safe and unsafe 50/50 options. Basically a more complex 50/50.

 

[Peckapowa]

PL's definition isn't incorrect. He's just taking into account the safe and unsafe 50/50 options. Basically a more complex 50/50.

Okay, so character A) does a mixup to character B.---- Character A) has a safe damage 11 percent 14 frame oh and B) unsafe 14 frame low which launches for 29%.... Character B) typically punishes for 49% damage if he has 1 bar of meter.

So, we have a 50% chance of blocking an 11 percent safe mixup and 50% chance of blocking the 29% unsafe 1... BUT character B punishes for more damage so the odds on part two are in it's favor. So it's 50% *(11 + 29)/100 vs 50% (49/100)= 40/49 IF the character has 1 bar...or we could phrase it as a 50%(11/100) / 50% (49-29/100)= 11/20 ... it's really an 11/ 20 mixup considering all things (if the character has 1 bar).

Do you really want to describe mixups this way??? Do you want to account for the "risk reward" of blocking the mixup which changes based upon the punishment damage of the character you are playing against?? A character's mixup reward ratio will be different for every single character it's playing against. We will only see 50/50s in mirror matches.

By PL's definition

No my definition is correct. 50/50 is risk reward where the turn out is equal on both sides.

the only true 50/50 in a game, would be two equally punishable mixups being punished by a character who does the EXACT same damage as the character delivering (random occurrence or mirror match). I think it's much easier to call things that the chance of blocking each option as 50% a 50/50... unless you want us to write things out. It's a stupid argument

 

[Peckapowa]

Well then I suppose we should all start seriously considering the existence of unicorns, Jesus, and goblins too.

Nice try on the reductio ad absurdum with the passive aggressive anti-religious touch mr. mayonnaise.... the fact of the matter(even though i was joking earlier) is this there are many situations which lack concrete evidence which could/are/have been true. Watch that movie with Tom Cruise, Jack Reacher.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Nice try on the reductio ad absurdum with the passive aggressive anti-religious touch mr. mayonnaise.... the fact of the matter(even though i was joking earlier) is this there are many situations which lack concrete evidence which could/are/have been true. Watch that movie with Tom Cruise, Jack Reacher.

I like your vocab and your style pecka

 

[Peckapowa]

I like your vocab and your style pecka

Thank you

 

[Doombawkz]

2. Is the spacing the same in the corner? I'd actually be ok with corners netting you better mixups from this honestly, but i'm just curious if anyone knows.

It is not. Spacing is different in the corner, you end up at about jab distance rather than sweep distance, but it still pushes you back a small bit.

 

[ChaosTheory]

^^ Good question and interesting answer. I didn't think of that yet. Another layer.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Okay, so character A) does a mixup to character B.---- Character A) has a safe damage 11 percent 14 frame oh and B) unsafe 14 frame low which launches for 29%.... Character B) typically punishes for 49% damage if he has 1 bar of meter.

So, we have a 50% chance of blocking an 11 percent safe mixup and 50% chance of blocking the 29% unsafe 1... BUT character B punishes for more damage so the odds on part two are in it's favor. So it's 50% *(11 + 29)/100 vs 50% (49/100)= 40/49 IF the character has 1 bar...or we could phrase it as a 50%(11/100) / 50% (49-29/100)= 11/20 ... it's really an 11/ 20 mixup considering all things (if the character has 1 bar).

Do you really want to describe mixups this way??? Do you want to account for the "risk reward" of blocking the mixup which changes based upon the punishment damage of the character you are playing against?? A character's mixup reward ratio will be different for every single character it's playing against. We will only see 50/50s in mirror matches.

By PL's definition


the only true 50/50 in a game, would be two equally punishable mixups being punished by a character who does the EXACT same damage as the character delivering (random occurrence or mirror match). I think it's much easier to call things that the chance of blocking each option as 50% a 50/50... unless you want us to write things out. It's a stupid argument

dude wtf

PL was simply saying that by his definition a 50/50 is between the risk reward for the player... not the ability to actually block it.

In his mind... stuff that Batgirl has is not a 50/50, simply because punishing it isn't really an option. Sure you have a 50/50 chance of blocking it, but there is no reward in the sense that "yay i blocked it so suck on this combo."
Honestly we probably need some other type of word to describe the ability to punish the OH/Low type of stuff.

Idk.


I honestly do not know wtf you went on there about. You took the concept of risk/reward a tad far in relation to how he was stating it.

 

[Peckapowa]

dude wtf

PL was simply saying that by his definition a 50/50 is between the risk reward for the player... not the ability to actually block it.

In his mind... stuff that Batgirl has is not a 50/50, simply because punishing it isn't really an option. Sure you have a 50/50 chance of blocking it, but there is no reward in the sense that "yay i blocked it so suck on this combo."
Honestly we probably need some other type of word to describe the ability to punish the OH/Low type of stuff.

Idk.


I honestly do not know wtf you went on there about. You took the concept of risk/reward a tad far in relation to how he was stating it.

In order for it to be 50/50 he said it has to be equal risk/reward, so you have to factor in the amount of damage each character yields . I was trying to illustrate that kind of is an unnecessary complication to add to the fact that there is a 50% chance of blocking it, similararly to saying they both have to be punishable.

 

[MKF30]

Funny how ppl think everyone will combo into MB throw to perform resets, this will highly depend of what options does characters have after a standing reset, also, don't forget that it costs a meter, and if you do this all the time, you might not be able to save meter for breaker to use when you really need to.

Agreed plus, I don't see the purpose of worrying about this now several months before the game is out. Plus, if they're going to be that op NRS will just nerf them. I really don't think they want everyone having easy resets of EX/MB throws.

Personally I'm more concerned of the games balance, I hope this time mids and lows can actually compete with tops. Want to see more variety at events, not just Kabal, KL 98% of the time again.

 

[16 Bit]

I generally don't want to get involved but half of what Doombawkz says isn't true in any version of the game. Grain of salt everyone.

 

[Doombawkz]

I generally don't want to get involved but half of what Doombawkz says isn't true in any version of the game. Grain of salt everyone.

Very true. I could easily be completely wrong. No one should take anything this far ahead of the game too seriously.

Bit has way more experience than I do, so honestly if it comes between anything I say and anything he disagrees with, I would go with his input. My experience is honestly pretty limited.
I'm just going off of what I gathered, which in of itself isn't much.

@GGA 16 Bit , I know you're probably under NDA or something, but if you do see something wrong feel free to call me on it. I would rather people get the right info than go off of my assumptions/limited research.

Like out of this list:

Spoiler

1) You have to MB the grab as soon as it happens. You have to commit to it.
2) Scales super heavy, and the advantage it gives you honestly isn't gamebreaking. You're at +15 at the most.
3) Most OH options are about 20+ frames, very very few exceptions so far. I've been able to d.1 jab out of a "50/50 set-up"
4) If you are going to use this over a MB ender, you'll lose roughly 4-7% damage.
5) Meter gain isn't superb, so saving the meter isn't a bad idea.
6) XRAY is really good in this game.
7) Not every character has a safe 50/50, and most characters are Shazam levels of meter hungry.
8) Unless you NEED the set-up, it probably won't be great. Good for cutters and ball raiden though.
9) Has its uses for keep away because it can open a small window for jumping away.
10) Most enemies are going to be too far to jump over. You can if you waste run meter, but theres no point.
11) Grab has stupidly short range. Its not something you can just tack onto the end of just any combo.

Can you at least remove the stuff that doesn't quite fit? Or is that against the rules?

 

[THTB]

MB grabs are a terrible waste of meter unless you need them, they can't go onto the end of just any combo, and being +15 really isn't that much unless you're setting up.

Just so everyone knows, you are GAINING METER FROM ATTACKING NOW. So meter is going to come much faster than it did in MK9. Yeah, breakers and stuff still exist, but now meter is built by an additional method.

The waste of meter thing isn't something we will know yet because that factor still isn't being taken into account. In MK9 you had a really good case with meter building here. But now, we really won't know until the game drops.

 

[Doombawkz]

Just so everyone knows, you are GAINING METER FROM ATTACKING NOW. So meter is going to come much faster than it did in MK9. Yeah, breakers and stuff still exist, but now meter is built by an additional method.

The waste of meter thing isn't something we will know yet because that factor still isn't being taken into account. In MK9 you had a really good case with meter building here. But now, we really won't know until the game drops.

Uh... You can just watch videos to see how much meter you gain from attacking. Not enough to justify using a MB grab over a MB ender which gives more damage and potentially better advantages

 

[THTB]

Uh... You can just watch videos to see how much meter you gain from attacking. Not enough to justify using a MB grab over a MB ender which gives more damage and potentially better advantages

Depends on the character, their general meter uses, and how much they may lose on combos. Some characters may not lose much at all, some may lose a lot.

For sure, in MK9, if meter built by attacking, no matter how little it was built, things would still be a lot different with the mentality of meter management.

 

[Doombawkz]

Depends on the character, their general meter uses, and how much they may lose on combos. Some characters may not lose much at all, some may lose a lot.

For sure, in MK9, if meter built by attacking, no matter how little it was built, things would still be a lot different with the mentality of meter management.

I stand by my claim that characters who use set-ups like cuts and such benefit. That's about all I can say for sure.

Perhaps