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its been 17 months. lets solidify a top 5

ForeverKing

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
MITDJT said:
I would venture to say that reptile's matchup chart is better than hers and kitana. Could be better than cage's as well. Let's not act like cage doesn't have as many or more losing matchups than reptile :p.
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Skarlet probably only loses to Kabal Cyrax and Sonya, while Reptile loses to Sonya Kabal Lao Kang Cyrax Cage and possibly more. And Reptile has 3-7's Skarlet doesn't.

Skarlet is pretty legit
 
YOMI MITYEAP

YOMI MITYEAP

Master
FOREVER KING said:
Skarlet probably only loses to Kabal Cyrax and Sonya, while Reptile loses to Sonya Kabal Lao Kang Cyrax Cage and possibly more. And Reptile has 3-7's Skarlet doesn't.

Skarlet is pretty legit
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I can give you scarlet over him but he only has one 3 7 :p. Now for cage tho, that race is very close. Also kitana probably is under reptile and cage matchup wise. Man this is why MK9 isn't dead, we can still discuss matchups/ tiers for hours on end haha.
 
AssassiN

AssassiN

Warrior
MITDJT said:
I believe kabal 7 3s her. But yeah I believe she probably loses less matchups than reptile, but I can't say that for sure because scarlet just wasn't explored as much or represented that much in tournaments. She could have more winning matchups than many thought, maybe more losing.
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She was more explored then you give credit for, she did not appear in a lot of US tournies. But @Eddy Wang has been playing her offline for a long time.
I agree that MU's could differ a little bit.
 
dittO

dittO

Noob
Just some thoughts from NOT a US player (european). Just mentioning this for those that think that our opinion/experience is inferior :p

First and foremost, I'm kind of opposed to this idea of top-5s or top-10s etc
There may not be a solid top-5 or top-10 in this game (or any other game for this matter). The reason for this, is simply because there may be a character in spot #6 that may be better than the character in spot #5. But some people might say: "It's ok we're just counting the "in favour/not in favour match-ups" and it's ok.

NO...it's not ok

After clearing this out and BEFORE starting to categorize each character to a specific tier, it's important to view this game's system as a whole. Characters that can exploit the most aspects of the game better than others are probably...umm better?
...
....
.....
(speaking to myself): ummm...dude, you actually didn't say anything new, everybody is aware of all these rules (end of speaking to myself)

Is it indeed that everybody is aware of this game's aspects?

- Damage potential (meterless or not)
- Punishing/Whiff punishing
- Movement (ground/air)
- Speed (General frames)
- Zoning/Anti-zoning
- Meter building/Meter usage
- Interactables/Anti-interactables
- Wagering

Well, since most people seem to agree on a very high point on who are the most dominant charecters in this game: Batgirl and Aquaman, it seems that after these two, things are becoming a bit vague.
 
RM Truth

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
Youphemism said:
You would take damage that isn't guaranteed over damage that is? I know how good the idea of the vortex is in general, but her damage output from it comes out in about 30%s if you want to loop it. Other characters vortexes in other games are different, they might get more damage output from each rep for example. That's my point, a third of the cast can punish the overhead option so it's not entirely safe, and just because it can be continued doesn't mean it will. Raw damage could beat out a vortex considering the guaranteed damage output it brings, and seeing as how Flash gets 60% guaranteed compared to BG's 30%ish guarantee I don't see how that's not an advantage. Flash also doesn't just get raw damage though he can get a setup from it back into his 50/50(s) and kill. Batgirl needs 3 or 4 reps to kill, Flash needs 2. Also Flash's 50/50 options are completely safe, only Batgirl's low option is completely safe. See why I think that? But of course by TYM logic this is downplaying so I guess other people are right and I'm wrong.
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I'd rather take 60% dmg that I can get off of a guess than 80% dmg that I had to work hard opening them up twice for.
 
RM Truth

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
Aquaman
MMH
Sinestro
Batgirl
Bane

I think Bane, Superman, and Zod are interchangeable right now.
 
HeroesNZ

HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
Rip Torn said:
Flash: Get hit + 1 wrong guess = dead

Batgirl: Get hit + at least 2 wrong guesses = dead.
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This is wrong though because even if Flash does hit you with a trait combo and then another combo, you'll still be alive.
The difference between them is that Flash knocks down the opponent whereas Batgirl keeps them standing, and has more mixups in her vortex - and if Flash chooses to keep them standing he gets much less damage. Not to mention you're not taking into account clashing, meter and positioning.
 
RM AtK!

RM AtK!

aka - RM_AtK !
MITDJT said:
Oh I can say he is better than cage, I will list characters smoke does better than and smoke away is better than flip kick/shadow kick/ nut punch and a whole lot safer:
Scorpion (Smoke)
Sub Zero (Smoke
Reptile (Cage)
Ermac (same)
Noob (Smoke)
Rain (Smoke)
Mileena (Cage)
Kitana (Same)
Jade (Same)
Skarlet (Same)
Sektor (Smoke)
Cyrax (Smoke)
Cyber Sub (Same)
Kenshi(Smoke)
Freddy (Smoke)
Sindel (Smoke)
Sonya (Same)
Jax (Cage)
Stryker (Same)
Liu Kang (Same)
Kung Lao (Cage)
Kano (Same)
Nightwolf (Cage)
Kabal (Same)
Baraka (Same)
Shang Tsung (Smoke)
Quan Chi (Same)
Raiden (Cage)
Sheeva (Smoke)
As you can see, Smoke for the most part does better in matchups than cage does, so how is cage better? :p and I am being completely serious, smoke has no reason to be outside top 10 or below anyone besides the top 6 with his matchup chart.
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Sheeva Scorpion Cyrax Shang Rain i dunno about that.. they both are the same imo in those matchups

smoke might body sheeva more but that's all i can see and most of these matchups your saying smoke does better in are low tiers that everyone beats / bodies.
 
DreadKnight1

DreadKnight1

Beaten, by this mere man
Youphemism said:
THANK YOU. People on this site take potential damage over guaranteed damage, how is that logical? Hell yeah her vortex is good, I'm not going to say something stupid like it sucks, but I'd take 1 guaranteed 60% from a 50/50 over however many reps of just under 30% from a 50/50 that aren't even guaranteed and that I could possibly even be punished for trying to continue.

Aaaaaaaaaand credibility gone... you better have some damn good reasoning for that tier list hahaha

You are a fucking god.

#7?! I don't think any of us have said she's lower than top 5 :confused:
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http://imgur.com/pwvfbKD

Her mu numbers don't accurately show how bs she is but here's what they are(more or less)
 
YOMI MITYEAP

YOMI MITYEAP

Master
CcTrust said:
Sheeva Scorpion Cyrax Shang Rain i dunno about that.. they both are the same imo in those matchups

smoke might body sheeva more but that's all i can see and most of these matchups your saying smoke does better in are low tiers that everyone beats / bodies.
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smoke still has a better chart :p
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
coolwhip said:
So Batgirl's struggles are vague statements pertaining to the neutral game and not requiring meter for her vortex (!?). Yup, that struggle, it is real.

EDIT: Apparently, her struggles are due to her vortex needing meter in the future to evolve past where it is now.

The struggle is even realer now.
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What is it with people making up quotes? Where did I say she struggles? Where did I say that using meter for a more effective mixup was a struggle? God try less like fishing and more factual arguments. You still haven't answered me on which "very good anti-zoning tool" she has?
MITDJT said:
No her vortex does around that same damage as scorpion's in mk9, his typical vortex was in the mid 20s or low30s (same as batgirl for the most part). Also hers has way more options because this game is back to block, hers isn't the opposite, it is just superior.
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But you said his would "lead to lots of damage"? If it's similar damage fair enough then of course Batgirl has the superior vortex, but it's just that you said his "could lead to lots of damage" that I was hesitant.
coolwhip said:
By the way @Youphemism I don't want to start shit here, but is your hate towards Sonic Fox by any chance related to the fact that he makes Batgirl look broke?
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Ok I understand you're not trying to start anything but I'd like to address something. This is to everyone who's ever misquoted me on that matter, I'm tired of this crap. I don't hate him and I've never uttered those words. I said I disagreed with what he does on stream sometimes and that's different. So leave it. Whether you're trolling, whether you're for some reason serious, you're misquoting me. I do not hate him. Stop with the crap, it's just abuse now since I've told people to stop with it already and have attempted, clearly uselessly, to correct them on the matter. Yes I would like to come over there and play out the BG matchup with you guys and it sucks that I can't but it doesn't mean I hate anyone that does get that opportunity.
Rip Torn said:
Same thing could be said for trying to throw interactables at Batgirl, couldn't it? Also, this point about Flash needing meter and trait to do 60%, as if Flash players don't save trait just for that combo or meter is hard to come by in this game, is a huge bill. Also, Batgirl's zoning is a bill. She doesn't zone anyone out. People need to stop bringing that up...

Flash: Get hit + 1 wrong guess = dead

Batgirl: Get hit + at least 2 wrong guesses = dead.

Yes, I've downplayed Batgirl all the way to 5th place which her MU numbers support. Not one 7-3 she has across the board. Basically all her hard MU's are the rest of the top 5.
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G
O
D
FOREVER KING said:
Batgirl is undeniably top 5, no ifs ands or buts about it
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I AGREE! If this is supposed to insinuate that I think she's below top 5 I'm gon' kill a bitch.
FOREVER KING said:
But she still doesn't lose to anyone so her "hard matchups" are just 5-5's
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At least half of her mu chart are 5-5s though...
DreadKnight1 said:
http://imgur.com/pwvfbKD

Her mu numbers don't accurately show how bs she is but here's what they are(more or less)
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That's just your opinion, you don't main the character. Just because you don't like fighting a character doesn't make them 7-3 most of the cast. The same way I don't like fighting Nightwing, but I'm not calling him top 5 I'm practising what I can to help in that matchup. Are the numbers you have for BG just Sonic's chart?
 
shaowebb

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
BANE
MMH
AQUAMAN
FLASH
BATGIRL

Thats my list. I just see them as the most consistent to get results with and having the fewest counterpicks. Their "bad" matchups don't even feel as bad as the bad matchups some of the rest of the cast have.
 
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