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Match-up Discussion ONGOING Bane MU chart

Doombawkz

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
RM_Biohazard said:
I would get hit before the meter burn portion comes out, I admit I should probably be meter burning that earlier to make it safer. I've conditioned myself to do it late to make it safe. Also the timing is different online which is why I got no meter burn sometimes. HuntR will agree to that. I'm not a huge online player but I try.
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Honestly against DD, you might as well MB it ASAP since he can ES on reaction and pluck you out of it. The hitbox is retarded.
 
HuntR

HuntR

"Getting stronger... Much stronger...."
RM_Biohazard said:
I would get hit before the meter burn portion comes out, I admit I should probably be meter burning that earlier to make it safer. I've conditioned myself to do it late to make it safe. Also the timing is different online which is why I got no meter burn sometimes. HuntR will agree to that. I'm not a huge online player but I try.
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Well you play a lot different. I did manage to grey bar 4 games straight before I had to go. I still believe it to be 5-5. Let's finish the set bro. My friends want hit up the gym in another hour..
 
cR Biohazard

cR Biohazard

Team Torr
Doombawkz said:
Honestly against DD, you might as well MB it ASAP since he can ES on reaction and pluck you out of it. The hitbox is retarded.
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Duly noted sir I will use the tip when HuntR comes back. If you can imagine most matches went with either me mauling him in the corner or vice versa. This match is mainly played in the corner.

Btw @Kyu I'd like to make some more inputs on the match up chart, I believe that Aquaman - Bane is 5-5, I haven't had a long set offline with theo, I did have one with @Syknis and let's just say it didn't go that well for him :). More evidence is needed before either character gets the edge imo.

Shazam I believe is 6-4 for Shazam, I believe @Indecisive played the matchup correctly against me, teleporting away and punishing my whiffed moves for the majority of the match when we played casuals at ECT.

Grundy is 7-3 if grundy plays it correctly, lots of armor cancelling from both ends, but if grundy gets a hit he can do massive damage so I can't say it's 8-2. The best thing Bane has going in this match is that he recovers quickly from his grab animation and if both players whiff a grab, Bane can full punish Grundy's whiffed grab.

Harley quinn is definitely 5-5, @AK SaltFace and I have played some casuals and his zoning is too godlike. So much patience is needed from Bane and she has options when knocked down. Her silly slide into tantrun stance completely blows up a d2 cancel command grab or double punch. Her tantrum stance also blows up double punch on knockdown. This match is honestly hard for Bane but Saltface is on another level with his Harley.
 
Reactions: Kyu
PND OmegaK

PND OmegaK

Drunk and Orderly
I'm probably gonna get blown up to fuck for saying this, but hasn't the meta evolved past 'I can blow up Bane's forward dash'? His decent walk speed paired with his long range normals and the threat of armour surely nullify that statement. Maybe I'm just theorying too much in my head. Oh well.
 
Reactions: Kyu
Doombawkz

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
PND OmegaK said:
I'm probably gonna get blown up to fuck for saying this, but hasn't the meta evolved past 'I can blow up Bane's forward dash'? His decent walk speed paired with his long range normals and the threat of armour surely nullify that statement. Maybe I'm just theorying too much in my head. Oh well.
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I made tech specifically to nullify that stage in the meta. Bane can cancel both his forward and back dash. No one uses it.
 
PND OmegaK

PND OmegaK

Drunk and Orderly
Doombawkz said:
I made tech specifically to nullify that stage in the meta. Bane can cancel both his forward and back dash. No one uses it.
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I noticed the length of the dash is different if you input a command early when I first picked him up. Is that what you mean? Does it make the dash completely unpunishable if you're venomed and cancel into special?
 
Johnny Based Cage

Johnny Based Cage

The Shangest of Tsungs
Good shit Biohazard and HuntR trying to flesh out these matchups beyond the theorycrafting level. I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up 5-5 just on the law of averages alone: Bane wins 9-1 if he gets DD to the corner first and Doomsday wins 9-1 if he does lol.

This seems like one of the more productive matchup charts tbh, and all of the arguing is really more like nitpicking over 1 pt differences of opinion for matchup numbers in the grand scheme of things, so it's cool to see all the Banes in relative agreement.
 
Doombawkz

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
PND OmegaK said:
I noticed the length of the dash is different if you input a command early when I first picked him up. Is that what you mean? Does it make the dash completely unpunishable if you're venomed?
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Not exactly, its hard to explain. To begin, Banes dash wasn't always so good. It used to be shorter and slower.
When they buffed it, they didn't change the input windows, so Bane has 2 points where he can cancel his dash.

All dashes can be cancelled 4 frames before they finish. Banes can be cancelled 4 and 8 frames beforehand.
His dash takes up exactly 15 frames of action, with 6 frames of vulnerability at the end. Dash for 9 frames, go back to neutral. 9+6 = 15. Simple.
If you know what you're doing, instead of 15 with 6, you can cancel the last 4 frames into a move. Bane can do this using his old dash cancel timing as well.
If you do that, Bane dashes for 7 frames and goes into the action mid dash. The dash loses its vulnerability frames, and so Bane can essentially do a psuedo-wave dash.

Now then, when backdashing you can cancel it in the same way, though not with the same timing. Its easiest to see in backdash -> 113 vs something like backdash -> forward dash. When Bane lands, he gets that nice 4 frame window to work with, and although this doesn't get the same benefit as forward dash does (since his backdash has always been this good), when he is in debuff he actually can cancel it 1/2/4 frames earlier depending on how slow you go. This is what makes it a good defensive tech when you are on cooldown because its a bit easier to time, and it helps you get rid of the ending of your dashes.

If you want to see it in its best form, go on level 2 cooldown and do dashes, then do f.2 cancelled dashes. Finally, do f.2 cancelled into dash which you then buffed a f.2 into. You'll see a change. Not a huge one, but its there.
 
Syknis

Syknis

King of the Kiddie Pool
RM_Biohazard said:
Duly noted sir I will use the tip when HuntR comes back. If you can imagine most matches went with either me mauling him in the corner or vice versa. This match is mainly played in the corner.

Btw @Kyu I'd like to make some more inputs on the match up chart, I believe that Aquaman - Bane is 5-5, I haven't had a long set offline with theo, I did have one with @Syknis and let's just say it didn't go that well for him :). More evidence is needed before either character gets the edge imo.

Shazam I believe is 6-4 for Shazam, I believe @Indecisive played the matchup correctly against me, teleporting away and punishing my whiffed moves for the majority of the match when we played casuals at ECT.

Grundy is 7-3 if grundy plays it correctly, lots of armor cancelling from both ends, but if grundy gets a hit he can do massive damage so I can't say it's 8-2. The best thing Bane has going in this match is that he recovers quickly from his grab animation and if both players whiff a grab, Bane can full punish Grundy's whiffed grab.

Harley quinn is definitely 5-5, @AK SaltFace and I have played some casuals and his zoning is too godlike. So much patience is needed from Bane and she has options when knocked down. Her silly slide into tantrun stance completely blows up a d2 cancel command grab or double punch. Her tantrum stance also blows up double punch on knockdown. This match is honestly hard for Bane but Saltface is on another level with his Harley.
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The download was right around the corner lol
 
Doombawkz

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
RM_Biohazard said:
If your talking about cancelling dash into double punch or command grab I use it all the time, thought a lot of Banes would...
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I'm talking Bane basically doing MK9 style dash cancels into like... other dashes, normals, etc. Its hard as hell to time correctly but he can do it.
 
PND OmegaK

PND OmegaK

Drunk and Orderly
Doombawkz said:
Not exactly, its hard to explain. To begin, Banes dash wasn't always so good. It used to be shorter and slower.
When they buffed it, they didn't change the input windows, so Bane has 2 points where he can cancel his dash.

All dashes can be cancelled 4 frames before they finish. Banes can be cancelled 4 and 8 frames beforehand.
His dash takes up exactly 15 frames of action, with 6 frames of vulnerability at the end. Dash for 9 frames, go back to neutral. 9+6 = 15. Simple.
If you know what you're doing, instead of 15 with 6, you can cancel the last 4 frames into a move. Bane can do this using his old dash cancel timing as well.
If you do that, Bane dashes for 7 frames and goes into the action mid dash. The dash loses its vulnerability frames, and so Bane can essentially do a psuedo-wave dash.

Now then, when backdashing you can cancel it in the same way, though not with the same timing. Its easiest to see in backdash -> 113 vs something like backdash -> forward dash. When Bane lands, he gets that nice 4 frame window to work with, and although this doesn't get the same benefit as forward dash does (since his backdash has always been this good), when he is in debuff he actually can cancel it 1/2/4 frames earlier depending on how slow you go. This is what makes it a good defensive tech when you are on cooldown because its a bit easier to time, and it helps you get rid of the ending of your dashes.

If you want to see it in its best form, go on level 2 cooldown and do dashes, then do f.2 cancelled dashes. Finally, do f.2 cancelled into dash which you then buffed a f.2 into. You'll see a change. Not a huge one, but its there.
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You've got it down to a science man haha. Kudos for finding it out to the frame.
 
Doombawkz

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
PND OmegaK said:
You've got it down to a science man haha. Kudos for finding it out to the frame.
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Its not hard to figure. Test on wake-ups, find out a 15 frame one hits, but a 16 frame one doesn't. Makes it easier to figure out when you can dash into zoning.
Anyways,
RM_Biohazard said:
I'm reading what OmegaK responded to is that it?
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Yeah, thats basically it. The easiest form is to do it to specials, but if you are doing it into normals you get to see magic happen.
 
cR Biohazard

cR Biohazard

Team Torr
Doombawkz said:
Its not hard to figure. Test on wake-ups, find out a 15 frame one hits, but a 16 frame one doesn't. Makes it easier to figure out when you can dash into zoning.
Anyways,

Yeah, thats basically it. The easiest form is to do it to specials, but if you are doing it into normals you get to see magic happen.
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I will try this out in training mode, keep the tips coming Doombawkz :)
 
Johnny Based Cage

Johnny Based Cage

The Shangest of Tsungs
Doombawkz said:
Its actually more constructive than you'd think. I'm flat to say I'm not interested in a pissing contest. If by some fluke I won, it wouldn't matter much. He probably would've beaten me 70% of the time regardless, but we both have our outlooks on the MU. We both agree the same problems exist, we just differ on how severe those problems are.

Max used to do it all the time, I think Grr did it a lot too but Max showed it off the best. As far as highest level, Bane's optimal damage is 1 frame links. No one does them, but if they did matches would be over a lot quicker. Regardless, I'm not arrogant so much as I'm confident in my information. I can confidently say no one knows as much about this character, his workings, and his options than I do. I will admit, though, I have a tendency to underestimate the options of others. Not this time, though.

Start-up doesn't actually have much of a problem in the situation, since we can use it to stop the dash-in (on account of in trait his moves lose armor). Its more to buy time, but to stop a DD d.1 you have to be just framing it the entire time. Against DD, the actual best thing to do is b.1 -> d.1 -> backdash or just d.1 backdash. If you do what I do and cancel your backdashes, you can make DD's life a living hell.

When a Bane with my confidence and enough talent to do all his crazy shit well comes along, yeah some minds may be changed.
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Good post, man. I think you hit the nail 100% on the head about knowing Bane's ins and outs but potentially underestimating the options of others. I personally feel you might be doing just that with some of Doomsday's strengths, especially his corner game and ability to get there, but in the long run we're debating a 1 point difference anyway so it's all good.
 
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