Guide Azarath, Metrion, Zinthos -- Raven General Discussion Thread

[OG Mannimal]

You just do a well spaced and well timed jump-in that looks ambiguous and hits right after the claw holding them from MB pull expires.

So should I back up a bit? I don't understand how this could be that hard to block, but then again I don't know what it looks like so ignore what I just said

 

[Blind_Ducky]

 

[OG Mannimal]

I can't tell from the video, can the power character avoid the reflect or nah? That's cool tho, tr last thing I would expect her to be able to reflect is some big metal thing

 

[Blind_Ducky]

I can't tell from the video, can the power character avoid the reflect or nah? That's cool tho, tr last thing I would expect her to be able to reflect is some big metal thing

Not sure. If it can be avoided.



Also f2233 crosses up sometimes I think. I was playing @WoundCowboy & he said it was probably was sometimes. I think if the opponent starts out crouch blocking the f2 then goes to stand block it might cross up. Not 100% sure.

 

[Sami]

Nearly a use for f2233 but not quite . I know it can cross-up if the overhead is timed right on wake-up, but it requires perfect timing and you might as well just do a meaty ji3 instead.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Nearly a use for f2233 but not quite . I know it can cross-up if the overhead is timed right on wake-up, but it requires perfect timing and you might as well just do a meaty ji3 instead.

Against aquaman I just kept doing it into itself and if he woke up it stuffed it and sometimes it crossed up, resetting the situation. I'm fine with adding this as a semi useful tool in that mu.

 

[OG Mannimal]

So what do you guys use to punish whiffed jump ins? I feel like Raven is really lacking in this department, especially compared to characters like GL, Supes and BA

 

[kabelfritz]

hi Folks im back on injustice. i dunno if anyone missed me but i had a couple months away due to putting my 360 to rest and now finally found a cheap injustice for PS4 (posting this here cause i used to be a raven subforum resident). hit me up when you wanna play. also, do still no ps4 sticks exist?

 

[kabelfritz]

So what do you guys use to punish whiffed jump ins? I feel like Raven is really lacking in this department, especially compared to characters like GL, Supes and BA

d1~lift

 

[_Pawned_]

Does raven have any 50/50 cross up setups after a hard knockdown at the end of a combo?

 

[Jackal904]

Does raven have any 50/50 cross up setups after a hard knockdown at the end of a combo?

Yeah. End a combo with d1~lift and, depending on the opponent's height when the d1 connects, it'll lead to an ambiguous cross-up that can be made even more ambiguous by mixing it up between j2 and j3.

 

[Sami]

A few things.

Event Horizon (demon grab) MB corner hitbox "glitch"

After putting this on DMS's wall (currently @Dark Kent) I realised that I don't think I ever posted this on the forums. @SonicFox5000 apparently found, and I quote "corner reverse MB trait pull". This might be the thing I didn't post, might be completely different. Hopefully it is different as it would mean yet more Raven tech. Apologies to Fox if I'm just about to steal his thunder, but considering what I found was so obscure I seriously doubt it.

Anyway, push your opponent into the corner and then at point blank do demon pull MB. Then immediately jump in. Congrats, you're now "inside" their hitbox where things get ambiguous as fuck. As they land you have a few options, such as b2 (caused the most weirdness as you advance forward when doing it), jump 3 (will hit as they land if timed right). No, f3 does not cross them. One day I'll find an f3 cross-up setup.

The benefits of this? Yeah not many, especially when you can just go for a normal 50/50 standing reset with a jump-in attack as they land. However, it's always good to know things like this and if pulled out of nowhere could throw the opponent off their game. You don't need to do this raw - any combo that ends with the opponent in the corner and you point blank can be ended with demon grab MB for this setup. The resulting spacing is the same regardless so you can try it just by doing raw demon grab.

As you land while they're still in the air, the opponent has a second to actually see what happened and panic (WHICH SIDE IS HE ON?!?!). Consider it more of a mind-games tool rather than a guaranteed setup.

D2 quick-stand proof of concept

Just did 15 minutes in the lab (I don't actually play any more - just watch the streams) and worked this out. For those who don't know, ending a combo with a d2 will cause them to stand back up almost immediately if you did another d2 in the same combo earlier (the d2s do not need to be back to back). This can catch them off guard for blocking, wake-ups, etc. These combos are not optimized - they're just to show it in action.

Proof of concept 1 (mid-screen): b3, ji3, d2, ji2, d2~lift. The opponent should land between d2 and lift where they will stand up straight away and be caught by lift. You're at -10 if they block, but they're quite far away (pretty much the max lift range) so a punish is almost impossible (example: Corps Charge can be blocked).

Proof of concept 2 (mid-screen, demon stance): b3, ji2, d2, ji2, d2~grab. Exactly the same as above. Two ji2s are used to change the gravity (ji3 causes higher gravity on the opponent) to take into account the increased start-up times on the grab. If it gets blocked they're far away and you're only -5.

Proof of concept 3 (anti-air): d2~lift MB, b3 d2~lift. As above, but this time you start off with the d2.

Baiting wake-ups after quick-stand

The opponent has to make a very quick choice/guess as to whether they should try and wake up out of the setup assuming they see it coming. This can also be exploited to your advantage. The opponent is far enough away that a lot of wake-ups will just flat out miss and for those that cause the opponent to charge towards you can be countered by just blocking after the last d2 (i.e. don't cancel into the special) or following up d2 with b3/f3 MB. You have enough frame advantage from the d2 to just do a raw f3/b3 - no need to spend 2 bars for the cancel. The armour will kick in by the time they arrive and hit you and hopefully the f3/b3 will punish or at least leave you + on block.

 

[Sami]

More tech time. This only works against tall hit-boxes and I'm guessing everyone in the corner (it worked on Catwoman anyway). Raven's b1/ij2 has been used to setup mix-ups before, but always off of a blocked move (usually b3 or a deep/late jump-in). It also works after f2 on hit. f2 is a nice poke as it punches through slow moves with armour (it hits twice). On hit, you're at +14. This gives you enough time for an instant j2/ji2 (overhead) or b1 (low).

Instant j2 (overhead): Comes out in 11-12 frames - start-up is 8 frames and there's a 3-4 frame delay after jumping before you can input it. You'll need to practice this lots as it requires stricter timing than a ji1 (which btw you can't combo from so don't even try it). On hit, you land the other side of them and can link into 11~lift MB and combo. On block or wiff you're fucked and will get full combo punished. Use neutral j2 in the corner and ji2 mid-screen.

b1 (low): Comes out in 15 frames so you'll need to be right on the button for this one. Hit confirm it into b12~lift MB and combo (or just b123 to push them away). If it's being blocked just do b123. Both b12 and b123 are -5 on block, but b123 leaves a much bigger distance making it harder for the opponent to start pressure.

 

[Sami]

Hey you, stop pressing buttons!

These put your opponent in 100% lockdown until they stop pressing buttons and actually block. It is completely inescapable until they block. If they do block, check them with the 6 frame d1 (which will either be 5 frames or 7 frames depending on what they blocked). If it hits, go into 11 and then whatever your pressure was before. The opponent can always block back-to-back the follow-up normals/strings due to NRS's anti-linking tech otherwise the game would be full of infinites. Anyway, the only way for the opponent to stop you from doing this is to block.

11: start-up is 7, is high-med, -1 on block (meh), +17 on hit.
f2: start-up is 13, is med, -1 on block (meh), +14 on hit.
d1: start-up is 6, is med, +1 on block, +10 on hit.

Anywhere: d1, d1, d1, d1. Yep, it keeps going until they block. You and your opponent will not move if the d1s connect. A blocked d1 will put you out of range for a follow-up d1 so be careful when checking opponents as it could lead to a punish.

Anywhere: f2, 11, f2, 11, f2, 11, f2, 11. Opponent is unable to mash any buttons to get out of it as the follow-up combo always hits during the hit recovery frames of the one before it. 11 starting high doesn't matter as you'll only be doing it if they're in hit stun from f2 which means they will be standing, so 11 is guaranteed to connect. Just spamming f2 requires you to be frame perfect. Just spamming 11 will push the opponent out of range. Because f2 moves Raven forward you can cycle between the two and keep hitting until they finally block. 11 is easily hit-confirmable into lift and fill combo. Main advantage of this over d1 spam is that the hits do more damage if the opponent is pressing buttons and it pushes them towards the corner.

Corner: f2, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, etc. f2 allows you to make sure that they're standing so the first hit of 11 can't be ducked under. After that, keep mashing 11 as there's no push-back on it until they block it.

Other normals/strings can be used for this too, but d1/11/f2 seem to cover all bases. Yes, you can combine this with the post above after an f2 for the instant overhead/low mix-up if you're feeling risky.


edit: if you want to see if you're getting the inputs down without gaps, set the training dummy to jump. It will try and jump the moment it fully recovers from hit-stun. If you end up knocking the dummy to the floor then it means it had managed to get into the air meaning your inputs weren't tight enough.


edit 2: if you see 11 getting blocked, complete the string and do 11f2. That'll put you at 0 block advantage rather than -1. If you're feeling risky, do 11b2 instead. You'll be at -2 but it looks identical to 11~lift (which is -10) which could be used to bait a punish.

 

[Sami]

Finally found the use for f1.

Start-up: 16
Hit advantage: 19! Frame data is wrong - found an old post where Sprint confirmed it was actually +19 on hit ad not +14.
Block advantage: +3
Recovery: 13

Start up is rubbish but recovery is amazing. Don't use it in d1 range (or against anyone with really good quick advancing normals). It recovers quicker than 1 and d1, so once the opponent has realised it wiffed (either because you were out of range or they ducked) then they have less time for punishing it than a wiffed 1 or d1. If they block it then yay you're at +3. This isn't the interesting bit though. On hit - unless done at max range - it spaces out the opponent for an ambigious cross-up and most characters won't be able to AA you in time. ji1/2/3 all land on different sides depending on the spacing so it becomes a complete guess as to where you'll end up. The training dummy doesn't do a good job of testing this - it was only by manually holding "away" on a controller that the cross-up properties became clear. If the opponent is trying to back off then they eat a 50/50 cross-up.

Great tech? No. But hey, the move is no longer 100% completely useless! Just... 75%?

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Hey everyone, just picked up Raven. Couple of questions that I am sure come up a lot.

1. Absorb - How reliable is this offline, on reaction? Is it possible with some projectiles? I feel like online I can never get it to come out in time. Is that just online sucking, or do I need to be using it on a read?

2. Trait - What ways are there to get into it? I see at the end of combos, b23 and f222 are used to start the pillar game, but are there any other common ways to set it up?

 

[TarkatanDentist]

Hey everyone, just picked up Raven. Couple of questions that I am sure come up a lot.

1. Absorb - How reliable is this offline, on reaction? Is it possible with some projectiles? I feel like online I can never get it to come out in time. Is that just online sucking, or do I need to be using it on a read?

2. Trait - What ways are there to get into it? I see at the end of combos, b23 and f222 are used to start the pillar game, but are there any other common ways to set it up?

Depends on the projectile. At full-screen, most should be absorb-able on reaction, with a few exceptions such as DS gunshots, Joker's Bang, Harley's Line of Fire etc. Also you have to be wary of a lot of MB projectiles which will simply blast straight through. Using Empty Void on a read is not advisable - too risky. The timing on it is fairly easy with a moderate amount of practice.

As for trait, depends on the character. If they can't advance on you quickly and don't have a fast projectile, most any hard knockdown (including from Soul Crush) provides a good opportunity to activate. Ultimately though, using b23 or f222 to end combos is the most reliable method.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Hey everyone, just picked up Raven. Couple of questions that I am sure come up a lot.

1. Absorb - How reliable is this offline, on reaction? Is it possible with some projectiles? I feel like online I can never get it to come out in time. Is that just online sucking, or do I need to be using it on a read?

2. Trait - What ways are there to get into it? I see at the end of combos, b23 and f222 are used to start the pillar game, but are there any other common ways to set it up?

Mb crush gives a free trait activation. Some characters can wake up with fast projectiles to punish trait after regular crush like sinestro & deathstroke.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

How often do you guys think you should go into trait? Should you take pretty much every opportunity you have, or do you like to save it sometimes for an optimal time? Obviously this would be matchup dependant.

 

[TarkatanDentist]

How often do you guys think you should go into trait? Should you take pretty much every opportunity you have, or do you like to save it sometimes for an optimal time? Obviously this would be matchup dependant.

There's a lot of useful information on that here: http://testyourmight.com/threads/demon-stance-vs-regular-stance.37980/

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

There's a lot of useful information on that here: http://testyourmight.com/threads/demon-stance-vs-regular-stance.37980/

Nice. That's some interesting stuff. Another question for everyone. Do your sparring partners still challenge trait? Do players familiar with the match up still try to dash and stuff? Or do they just respect it?

 

[TarkatanDentist]

Nice. That's some interesting stuff. Another question for everyone. Do your sparring partners still challenge trait? Do players familiar with the match up still try to dash and stuff? Or do they just respect it?

A lot of characters have no choice but to try and challenge it, if you have the life lead. If they 'respect' it, then that grants you somewhere in the vicinity of 14-16% block damage and a good amount of meter, thus granting you Singularity combos and the ever-important pushblock on the off-chance they get in.

Put it this way. If they try and get in, then it's a guessing game in your favour. If they don't try and get in, it's usually in your favour still, just without the guessing.

 

[VGMtheVagabond]

I feel like no matter how much I practice, I'm either not practicing something with her or there's nothing else for me to learn. Anything useful to learn/practice with?


...I feel like I always post in here before I go to a major :/

 

[Blind_Ducky]

I feel like no matter how much I practice, I'm either not practicing something with her or there's nothing else for me to learn. Anything useful to learn/practice with?


...I feel like I always post in here before I go to a major :/

What's giving you problems?

 

[VGMtheVagabond]

Other than MUs, I feel like I don't know how to take control if I'm being zoned from full screen. Supes, Martian, and DS all give me problems with zoning (Supes the least, I'm probably just bad with my timing), but how can I take control of zoners from full screen?

Also, what the fuck do I do against Batman's jump arc? I can read that shit all day and I fail to punish correctly. What are the best options for punishing characters with good jumps?