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Guide Demon Stance vs. Regular Stance

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Note: THIS IS OPINION. Everyone uses Raven differently, dont get offended if you disagree :)

There seemed to be some confusion at TFC of when to use and not use Demon stance, so I wanted to try and give my opinion on when to use and not use trait.

How to use them
Regular Stance​
Ravens make up the basis of regular stances strategy. On hit a raven grants a free soul crush, and on block they grant a free soul crush check. As far as specials go this is pretty much the strategy. Lift can also be used as an AA and can create mindgames with b23(slight delay between the 3 and lift but is a true blockstring, can catch a lot of people).​
Demon Stance​
Pillars are the key here. You can use pillars to control your opponent in many ways. After a blocked pillar most characters must block a soul crush. If they try and dash they will be hit by a soul crush. If they try to wait for the soul crush next time you can pillar again for more meter. Make sure to always MB your pillars as the bar will only be spent if they are hit by the pillar. If you read a dash coming from your opponent you can pillar in front of them to catch them in a combo. Or if your reactions are really tight, you can actually input a regular pillar and switch it when you see your opponent move. With practice this becomes one of her most dominating tools as it essentially can hit your opponent whatever he does.​
DS also gives a fullscreen grab with DB2. This can check your opponent at fullscreen, and if they decide to dash you can do another db2 and combo them. You can also db2 after a blocked pillar if you read a dash from fullscreen. Teleport is honestly very gimmicky and should only be used for whiff punishing, on a read, or if you are really really desperate. You also get a better reflect as you build more meter AND can get a full combo if DB1 MB Down hits.​

Pros and Cons
Whether people like to admit it or not, both stances have their advantages and disadvantages. IMO:​
Regular stance​
Pros:
  • Screen control. Ravens are better for controlling space and forcing your opponent to jump. With pillars your opponent is not likely to jump because it means a free combo. With ravens they get frustrated and tend to try and jump over them. Ravens also build a lot of meter and fill the entire screen. Ravens also give a free soul crush on hit and create a frametrap when blocked.
  • Lift in regular stance has better AA potential, as it has a higher hurtbox. It has faster startup and gives a hard knockdown.
Cons:
  • Cannot combo off of MB Reflect
  • Builds less meter
  • Not as much range on DB2
  • Pillars>Ravens(most of the time)
  • No consistent wakeup
  • Not as much opportunity for damage
Demon Stance​
Pros:​
  • Pillars are a very versatile tool. They are unclashable, neutral on block, can change direction on a read. They can control not only the ground but the air as well. They can combo on hit(MB), and on block grant a free soul crush check(will only hit if they try to dash, otherwise they will get one free dash).
  • Singularity is fullscreen and only -6.
  • Can combo off of reflect(D+MB Reflect) and reflect builds more meter
  • Teleport provides her only invincible wakeup and certain mind games(is extremely punishable)
Cons:
  • Most combos will cost you two bars
  • Opponents wont jump at all, giving you less mistakes to exploit
  • Cannot be used at all times and has a cooldown
So as you can see, Demon Stance is obviously better than regular stance. HOWEVER, their are certain situations where you might be better off using regular and saving the trait.

When to use which(universal)
  • When you do not have the lifelead- If you are behind and need to make a comeback, Demon Stance is crucial. You have fullscreen combos and overall more damage. Plus you have vortexes and teleport shenanigans if you are really desperate and need to throw a curveball.
  • When you do have the lifelead- Depending on the character, regular stance can be really useful here. Soul Crush and Ravens can wreak havoc on your opponent if you are patient enough. Some characters have a harder time getting in on ravens than pillars.
  • Against zoners- Demon Stance is better as a deterrent. One mistake will lead to a combo, and you can keep them honest with fullscreen grabs. The only good thing about regular stance is ravens come out faster and can occupy more space, but DS is usually best.
  • Against rushdown- Against characters with fast forward dashes regular stance can be key here. Ravens can be harder to get in on and soul crush can stop dashes in their tracks. DS can also be used but against certain characters pillars are not always ideal.
Character Specific Uses
Note: These are off my personal preferences, this is where I am sure some of us differ​
Aquaman- One of the few MUs regular stance is better than DS. Aquaman cannot be punished by soul crush after pillar, and if he blocks the soul crush he gets TWO free dashes. With ravens he is forced to walk in, and if he gets hit you get the free soul crush(Pillars give a combo on hit, but you wont be hitting him with those unless you catch him trying to ground trident). DS grab is also not as effective because -6 gives him a free dash.​
Ares- Demon Stance is better here. Ravens can be punished by teleport, and fullscreen grabs can trade with his fireballs to keep him honest. Teleport is also a good wakeup if he decides to MB Godsmack.​
Bane- Demon Stance. Teleport can punish Venom Charge for a full combo. It also gives you an invincible wakeup(NOTE: If he reads this he can jump back d3 for a full combo, not foolproof)​
Batgirl- Insufficient experience​
Batman- Both are equally useful. Ravens force him to walk his way in, but pillars can also limit his mobility. What I like to do is use ravens to build meter, and then go into trait to have plenty of meter for push block and two bars combos. I use both equally in this MU.​
Black Adam- Demon Stance is better simply to keep up with his damage output. He can divekick over ravens pretty easy and trades with them. DS is the way to go here.​
Catwoman- Demon stance is better for damage and space control. She can blow through ravens with EX Catdash and can actually b3 under them as well.​
Cyborg- Demon stance since reflect builds you more meter and you can combo off of MB Reflect(You will reflect a lot in this MU)​
Deathstroke- Demon Stance can keep him in check with the grabs, and on a good read you can teleport to get in on him. Pillars also mess with his zoning and footsies​
Doomsday- Demon Stance is better as you can combo him with MB pillars due to the hitstun(like 43% unclashable for four bars). Otherwise they are both pretty much the same as he can blow through projectiles with MB Venom.​
Flash- I like regular stance more in this MU. Flash has a really fast dash and the pillar soul crush trap does not work on him. No matter which stance your in he will eventually get in on you, but ravens are better because the occupy more space and give you more time to scout out a MB LC and punish.​
Green Arrow- Demon Stance because you gain more for reflecting arrows, he cannot hold his arrows(fullscreen grab). Much more controlled with Demon Stance.​
Green Lantern- Demon Stance. Pillar traps wreck him and fullscreen grabs make him think twice about firing rockets.​
Harley- Demon for sure. Pillars stop her from abusing air pistols and fullscreen grabs can be used in between gunshots to keep her honest.​
Hawkgirl- Demon Stance is a must for getting her out of the air. Fullscreen grabs mess with her as well, and MB Reflect can hit her easily if she gets too comfortable throwing air maces.​
Joker- Similar to harley with the fullscreen grab advantage. You can also teleport gas can attempts.​
KF- Demon Stance is key here. She can iceberg ravens pretty easily. With Demon Stance you can at least fullscreen grab iceberg as a punish.​
Lex- Demon wrecks him because of his mobility. When he has armor stance wont really matter too much. Demon can prevent him fromtraiting up so it is key here.​
Lobo- Demon wrecks him as well. Wakeup teleport can mess up his oki and keep him in check at fullscreen(DB2).​
MMH- Demon Stance is better here because of teleport(pillars can catch him in the startup frames)​
NW- Not enough experience, probably Demon though​
Raven- Demon stance, should be self explanatory​
Scorpion- Either works but regular is a little bit better if nothing else for stuffing jump ins with db2. He doesnt have to mess with ravens but I like to throw one out and bait a teleport. (You can also do this with pillars though)​
Shazam- Not enough experience​
Sinestro- Demon stance works better because teleport can beat out boulder and fireball on a read. Plus the pillar traps work on him(I think, not 100%)​
Grundy- Doesnt really matter for me personally, as he can blow through ravens and pillars with WCC. Wakeup teleport can mess with a little bit, so that gives DS a slight edge.​
Superman- Demon Stance. Air control, fullscreen grab checks and MB Reflect are good here.​
WW- Both work but I prefer regular in this one. She has a tough time getting in on ravens and if she tries to air dash or air goddess might you can lift her for a full combo. Demon Stance is still good though, just make sure to read air goddess might for a close pillar punish.​
Zatanna- Demon Stance beats her pretty bad in my experience. Teleport makes ravens kind of a moot point.​
Zod- Might be another regular, but I would have to have more exp. Pillar traps dont work on him and ravens can go under zod balls, but his pistol is faster and trait can wreck ravens. Im not sure about this one.​
The MU experience was pretty barebones(lost steam after an hour of typing :p) but hopefully someone gets something out of this. Let me know if I forgot anything or if you have a differeing opinion.​
 

greguu

GOTCHA
b23(slight delay between the 3 and lift but is a true blockstring, can catch a lot of people).
I went and tried to find ways around this after you used it at UCC. It is not a true blockstring. It can be armored through, back-dashed, and there are few character specific thing that can avoid or interrupt it. It is still a good option to use if your option to use since it beats juming, walking forward, and dashing forward.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
I went and tried to find ways around this after you used it at UCC. It is not a true blockstring. It can be armored through, back-dashed, and there are few character specific thing that can avoid or interrupt it. It is still a good option to use if your option to use since it beats juming, walking forward, and dashing forward.
Shhhhh Greg, Shhhhh.

Ill fix it tomorrow. Good find.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
I agree with the KF portion. Demon stance is the only thing keeping me from saying it's 7-3 frost. DS is really good in this MU.
 

Nonameformedude

That Yung Big Body
Bane completely shits on everything raven can do on wake up so its like, "hes obviously going to teleport if he doesnt want to die"(Edit: very very very not fullproff).

Pillars and teleport trickyness keeping bane players honest makes this MU 5-5, when out of demon stance its 6-4 bane

I really like to see write ups like these, good post!
 
Great thread for raven players, like the idea. Good work. Has anyone run into anyone using the mb dash forward to try and cut through her zoning yet, I am working on it offline, but its not close to ready yet. Seems like an option that may be used in the future once certain characters dash into soul crush range.
 

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Great thread for raven players, like the idea. Good work. Has anyone run into anyone using the mb dash forward to try and cut through her zoning yet, I am working on it offline, but its not close to ready yet. Seems like an option that may be used in the future once certain characters dash into soul crush range.
Yes my friend mb b3s through pillars all the time. Harley's b3 & f3 have huge range and I don't think every character can do it from that distance