Trait Design and improving the initial concept

[StevoSuprem0]

Haha okay I know it's bad as it is, but I was talking about the concept of having a parry that when used successfully rewards the player. I've also posted proposed rewards that I think would have made the trait more usable. He could receive 3 buffs, one for each parry. First parry he deals 15% with the parry and his gun will now hit mid for the entirety of the match. Second parry he deals 20% damage with the parry and the canisters are now faster and the one he throws hits overhead. Third parry deals 25% damage and his teeth are now unblockable for the rest of the match.

The problem with the parry is that you almost never land it consecutively in the time frame that they've allotted. You need to hit 2 in 8 seconds to really see any benefit because level 1 does virtually nothing. The speed boost at level 3 is actually somewhat useful, but it's just never gonna be reached. I think they should have either made it a single buff that lasts 10-15 seconds and does a little more than just make you walk and run faster, like reduce startup of moves and such. Would have been a lot more interesting an useful, while sticking to the concept.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

The problem with the parry is that you almost never land it consecutively in the time frame that they've allotted. You need to hit 2 in 8 seconds to really see any benefit because level 1 does virtually nothing. The speed boost at level 3 is actually somewhat useful, but it's just never gonna be reached. I think they should have either made it a single buff that lasts 10-15 seconds and does a little more than just make you walk and run faster, like reduce startup of moves and such. Would have been a lot more interesting an useful, while sticking to the concept.

Well that's exactly what I was talking about when I said "the CONCEPT is fine". All I'm talking about is a parry that rewards the character for landing it as a concept. To be honest I didn't even know that the 3 parries had to be landed in a certain time frame. The technical details of the trait are another matter, I made this thread with the concept of a trait in mind, rather than all the technical details as I don't have an in depth knowledge of every character in this game.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Well that's exactly what I was talking about when I said "the CONCEPT is fine". All I'm talking about is a parry that rewards the character for landing it as a concept. To be honest I didn't even know that the 3 parries had to be landed in a certain time frame. The technical details of the trait are another matter, I made this thread with the concept of a trait in mind, rather than all the technical details as I don't have an in depth knowledge of every character in this game.

I would lump the speed boost into the concept category, and it is pretty much the worst trait buff in the game AND requires a large amount of risk to be taken to attain it. All that seems relatively concept oriented.
Regardless, I like the idea of the thread. Just throwing my 2 cents in.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I would lump the speed boost into the concept category, and it is pretty much the worst trait buff in the game AND requires a large amount of risk to be taken to attain it. All that seems relatively concept oriented.
Regardless, I like the idea of the thread. Just throwing my 2 cents in.

Yeah I get where you're coming from. I agree it is the worst trait buff in the game.
And I appreciate it! This was why I made the thread, I wanted an actual discussion on the topic. I was interested to see what people wanted from traits. Was also tempted to see if people would like the idea of traits to be included into MK10 to make each character that bit more unique, but I thought it might be best not to go there.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Yeah I get where you're coming from. I agree it is the worst trait buff in the game.
And I appreciate it! This was why I made the thread, I wanted an actual discussion on the topic. I was interested to see what people wanted from traits. Was also tempted to see if people would like the idea of traits to be included into MK10 to make each character that bit more unique, but I thought it might be best not to go there.

I don't think we'll see it in MK10. It makes more sense in a DC game because it's kinda like playing into their superpower. While that's sort of a thing in MK, it's not really as thematic. It'll be interesting to see what they do to distinguish MK10 from MK9 though.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I don't think we'll see it in MK10. It makes more sense in a DC game because it's kinda like playing into their superpower. While that's sort of a thing in MK, it's not really as thematic. It'll be interesting to see what they do to distinguish MK10 from MK9 though.

Yeah I know what you mean. To be honest I quite like back in Deception when every character had a unique weapon stance, I wouldn't mind that being explored a bit more.

 

[SaltShaker]

The one thing that I don't understand about the trait system, is why isn't it equal? There's one thing for a trait to be "more effective" than a different character, but its another for the same button to have consequence or difficulty to use for some, and mindless button press for others. What makes this worse is that most of the top tiers, who would have been top anyway, have it the easiest.

Let me give an example as a day 1 Sinestro player. I'm sure it can be agreed upon that Sinestro is MUCH better with trait out, but why does he have to charge up to 3 shots before he can use it??? Why does he have to charge it at all? Supposedly because, "o Sinestro would be a beast if he could just push out trait". Really? Because since Day 1 BA has pushed 4 and so has Batman to poof their trait out and they've always been hovering at the top. Why doesn't Batman charge Bats? Sinestro needs his trait just as much to compete with the top of the cast but has to work 10x harder to get it out, just to lose it in a clash and have to recharge 3 bars all over again. How is this fair?

Also, characters like Cyborg would be so much better with an actual trait that could be used geared to his playstyle. Same as DS. Meanwhile Aquaman can mindlessly press 4 to slip out of combos and MMH can mindlessly press 4 to jab you from mid screen, characters who would be top 5 even with some sort of consequence or penalty or difficulty in their trait, are the ones that have none.

This is my main issue with traits in this game.

 

[Peckapowa]

I’ve been a lurker for a long time now and thought I’d create an account because I’ve been hoping to see a conversation that I just haven’t. It’s about pure trait design.

I’m not talking about buffing or nerfing traits as they are, but how traits should have been designed in the concept.

I don’t think a trait should be something you press a soon as you can that makes your character automatically better with absolutely no consequence (MMH, BM, AM, Zod), but instead I think there should be a downside/debuff on every trait so that you actually have to think and evaluate whether or not it’s worth using it at certain times.

Below are some suggestions on how each trait could have been designed so that each trait becomes more of a thoughtful tool.

Hopefully it’ll start a discussion.

Aquaman: While AM’s trait is in debuff (regenerating/cooldown) his trident becomes less useful and he cannot use FTD or trident rush.

Ares: Interesting concept, fine as it is.

Bane: Debuff CONCEPT is fine.

Batman: Has to have at least one bat available (either out or stocked) to use gadgets.

Batgirl: Concept is fine.

Black Adam: While his orbs are out he can’t use lightning attacks.

Catwoman: Jeez this trait is weird. I have no suggestions. Would like to hear some.

Cyborg: Again I don’t really have an opinion.

Deathstroke: Concept seems fine.

Doomsday: Should be slower maybe while trait is on or receive more damage while it is regenerating.

Flash: Seems fine, maybe affect his dash while it is regenerating.

Green Arrow: Concept is fine.

Green Lantern: Again seems fine to me, maybe damage reduction on regeneration time.

Hawkgirl: Seems fine

Harley: Love it, complete randomness and unpredictable. Suits her personality.

Joker: Concept is okay I think.

Killer Frost: Seems okay.

Lex Luthor: Receives more damage while regenerating or has random gadget malfunctions during regeneration time.

Lobo: Concept seems fine.

Martian: During regeneration time his teleports should miss due to his judgement being off after the elongation.

Nightwing: Concept fine.

Raven: Maybe during regeneration soul crush has very limited range?

Scorpion: Maybe during regeneration time hellfire doesn’t work?

Shazam: THE LAZIEST TRAIT DESIGN. I hate a boring damage boost trait, would have preferred it if activating trait gave shazam some new interesting special moves that involved lightning storms and stuff and then during debuff time shazam’s non-trait moves that involve lightning could be less effective.

Sinestro: Interesting trait design as I think the “debuff” comes from having to charge it up.

Solomon Grundy: Design is alright, although maybe doing the same grab for the second time in a row removes your initial buff.

Superman: Should give out less damage/receive more while trait is regenerating.

Wonder Woman: Fine.

Zatanna: Seems okay, her debuff is that she can’t block.

Zod: While trait is regenerating he can no longer fly, i.e. air dash or zod charge

I don't agree using this much reduction for balancing purposes, its okay to have good moves, they need to have drawbacks, but the drawbacks are cool down, its okay for a move to be good, the drawback on zods trait is slow startup and not having it all the time, they need to fix how quickly you get it back, they don't need to debuff every trait tthats kind of boring and stupid in my opinion.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

The one thing that I don't understand about the trait system, is why isn't it equal? There's one thing for a trait to be "more effective" than a different character, but its another for the same button to have consequence or difficulty to use for some, and mindless button press for others. What makes this worse is that most of the top tiers, who would have been top anyway, have it the easiest.

Let me give an example as a day 1 Sinestro player. I'm sure it can be agreed upon that Sinestro is MUCH better with trait out, but why does he have to charge up to 3 shots before he can use it??? Why does he have to charge it at all? Supposedly because, "o Sinestro would be a beast if he could just push out trait". Really? Because since Day 1 BA has pushed 4 and so has Batman to poof their trait out and they've always been hovering at the top. Why doesn't Batman charge Bats? Sinestro needs his trait just as much to compete with the top of the cast but has to work 10x harder to get it out, just to lose it in a clash and have to recharge 3 bars all over again. How is this fair?

Also, characters like Cyborg would be so much better with an actual trait that could be used geared to his playstyle. Same as DS. Meanwhile Aquaman can mindlessly press 4 to slip out of combos and MMH can mindlessly press 4 to jab you from mid screen, characters who would be top 5 even with some sort of consequence or penalty or difficulty in their trait, are the ones that have none.

This is my main issue with traits in this game.

This was kind of my main point. I don't think a trait should be something that you can mindlessly press to make your character, but have to evaluate when to use it. I actually think sinestro's is one of the one's that meets this criteria as you have to judge when the right time to charge it is.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I don't agree using this much reduction for balancing purposes, its okay to have good moves, they need to have drawbacks, but the drawbacks are cool down, its okay for a move to be good, the drawback on zods trait is slow startup and not having it all the time, they need to fix how quickly you get it back, they don't need to debuff every trait tthats kind of boring and stupid in my opinion.

Well it wasn't meant for balancing the character as a whole, but balancing the trait. So trying to forget what characters are high tier in this game and just going back to when the trait was designed.

I thought traits would be much more interesting if they were a tool that made the character more unique and would be beneficial when used at the right time rather than something you want to just get out whenever you can to make your character immediately better.

I'm not really saying every trait needs to be debuffed, for example I like the idea of stance changes as you have to decide when is the right time to use each stance, but I think that a trait that provides a significant advantage to your character when activated should also come with a cost so that the mindset isn't "Oh I'll just press trait as soon as I can and it'll be great"

 

[Peckapowa]

Well it wasn't meant for balancing the character as a whole, but balancing the trait. So trying to forget what characters are high tier in this game and just going back to when the trait was designed.

I thought traits would be much more interesting if they were a tool that made the character more unique and would be beneficial when used at the right time rather than something you want to just get out whenever you can to make your character immediately better.

I'm not really saying every trait needs to be debuffed, for example I like the idea of stance changes as you have to decide when is the right time to use each stance, but I think that a trait that provides a significant advantage to your character when activated should also come with a cost so that the mindset isn't "Oh I'll just press trait as soon as I can and it'll be great"

I agree with this to a degree, maybe if they had larger cool downs they would be needed to be used at more meaningful moments, but i feel that balancing characters must be viewed as a whole. just because one trait is better than another, that doesn't mean the trait should be equalized because that is in respects to the whole character. you must play league

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I agree with this to a degree, maybe if they had larger cool downs they would be needed to be used at more meaningful moments, but i feel that balancing characters must be viewed as a whole. just because one trait is better than another, that doesn't mean the trait should be equalized because that is in respects to the whole character. you must play league

No, I don't play league. you're missing my point entirely. This has nothing to do with balancing the character. I'm talking about before all the details of the character are finalized so that in this hypothetical time all the characters are considered to be just as good as each other. Then, when you're giving them a trait it is with the concept that if this traits adds something to make the character significantly better then it should also come at a price. Then after all the characters are giving traits they can be tweaked and buffed or nerfed in order to normalize. The idea of this thread was not to consider nerfs for traits that are too good, but to slightly redesign the trait to make them more meaningful father than something that you immediately want to press whenever it is available.

 

[trufenix]

I thought traits would be much more interesting if they were a tool that made the character more unique and would be beneficial when used at the right time rather than something you want to just get out whenever you can to make your character immediately better.

All traits are beneficial when used at the right time and useless if poorly planned. Even the ten or so traits (not even majority) that you'd always active have the draw back of if you burn it now, you won't have it later. They don't need an extra drawback while they're active or even worse penalties while they recharge. You really think pressing the trait button should turn off Black Adam's lightning attacks? Like why the hell would I ever press that button.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

All traits are beneficial when used at the right time and useless if poorly planned. Even the ten or so traits (not even majority) that you'd always active have the draw back of if you burn it now, you won't have it later. They don't need an extra drawback while they're active or even worse penalties while they recharge. You really think pressing the trait button should turn off Black Adam's lightning attacks? Like why the hell would I ever press that button.

Yeah you may have missed my point. I realise that the traits are beneficial when used correctly and you can waste them, however, there's relatively no thought to using a lot of the traits, it's generally just a case of press trait and the character becomes better with no consequence and so there's no thought, no mind games involved in using them.

That was just a suggestion, I'm not saying it should be like that, it was just an idea. Because after pressing trait your opponent is already scared to touch you so should they also still be scared of all your lightning crap?

 

[trufenix]

Yeah you may have missed my point. I realise that the traits are beneficial when used correctly and you can waste them, however, there's relatively no thought to using a lot of the traits, it's generally just a case of press trait and the character becomes better with no consequence and so there's no thought, no mind games involved in using them.

I feel like you're oversimplifying. Saying there's no thought to using a lot of traits is like saying there's no thought to using an ex move. An EX move is (almost) always better than not using the EX move, but a bar burnt here is a bar that can't be burnt later, this is the fundamental concept behind clash and meter management in general. I don't think the drawback to a trait has to be some obvious character gimping flaw, it could just be well, sometimes just the fact that he can't have the trait on all the time is gimp enough.

For example, even if your trait is just "I'm better for 10 seconds" you still need to plan and optimize that ten seconds. (Good) Superman players don't just "mash" the trait button the second it lights up, nor do Martians, Shazams, Green Lanterns or Zod's. Because if you mash trait to score the final hit of a lifebar, you've effectively wasted its benefit. And I don't think any of those characters are so "good" without them that they can afford to be wasted or thrown away. With and without trait Zod is effectively two completely different characters, and the Zod player must take full advantage of both those times to be effective.

And again, this really only addresses maybe 10 traits (not even the majority) in the whole game. Everyone else literally has to plan and integrate it into their gameplan (or is burdened with a trait that is a turkey). I think the only character who's trait has literally zero drawback is Lobo, and that kinda fits into the kind of guy Lobo is.

That was just a suggestion, I'm not saying it should be like that, it was just an idea. Because after pressing trait your opponent is already scared to touch you so should they also still be scared of all your lightning crap?

BA's trait is already "checked" by the fact that he can't simply turn it on / off whenever he wants, and it goes away if he waits too long. Taking away lighting basically makes his trait a rushdown only "stance" in exchange for I think 8% chip. It telegraphs your intentions and means if BA presses trait from full screen (when most of them activate it to close out a round / game), pure zoning characters are now free to shoot him with impunity, because his trait goes away if he does anything but block.

In any event, nitpicking your examples aside; I like to think (given they dedicated a whole button to it) the idea behind traits was to actually round out a characters movelist not simply be some additional "option" that you can probably ignore because its too risky. By design the trait "should" be as big a part of their movelist as any other punch / kick button. How much they actually achieved that goal is subject to some debate, but I don't think giving traits less utility and making them even more situational by adding more drawbacks is the right way to go.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I feel like you're oversimplifying. Saying there's no thought to using a lot of traits is like saying there's no thought to using an ex move. An EX move is (almost) always better than not using the EX move, but a bar burnt here is a bar that can't be burnt later, this is the fundamental concept behind clash and meter management in general. I don't think the drawback to a trait has to be some obvious character gimping flaw, it could just be well, sometimes just the fact that he can't have the trait on all the time is gimp enough.

For example, even if your trait is just "I'm better for 10 seconds" you still need to plan and optimize that ten seconds. (Good) Superman players don't just "mash" the trait button the second it lights up, nor do Martians, Shazams, Green Lanterns or Zod's. Because if you mash trait to score the final hit of a lifebar, you've effectively wasted its benefit. And I don't think any of those characters are so "good" without them that they can afford to be wasted or thrown away. With and without trait Zod is effectively two completely different characters, and the Zod player must take full advantage of both those times to be effective.

BA's trait is already "checked" by the fact that he can't simply turn it on / off whenever he wants, and it goes away if he waits too long. Taking away lighting basically makes his trait a rushdown only "stance" in exchange for I think 8% chip. It telegraphs your intentions and means if BA presses trait from full screen (when most of them activate it to close out a round / game), pure zoning characters are now free to shoot him with impunity, because his trait goes away if he does anything but block.

Okay, I am over simplifying slightly. I'm not saying someone can mash trait and close their eyes and be good, I am assuming the player knows what their trait does and how to use it.

Your point about the EX move is a direct example of the point I'm making. The expenditure of the meter IS the drawback. You are given something beneficial of the EX move but at a PRICE of 1 bar of meter. That is the whole point I am making of what almost every scenario should be. Risk/reward.

I get that zod plays differently when he doesn't have his trait out, but the fact that every zod player will activate his trait as soon as it is safe to shows that his trait makes him immediately better and that there is no reason not to get trait out as many times as you can in that match. There is absolutely no risk/reward factor taken into consideration with that trait. It is merely get it out and you have a reeward.

But why would he ever trait full screen?? This just shows it would force the BA player to think about how he is going to use it. Is that really a bad thing??