Trait Design and improving the initial concept

[NoobHunter420]

I wouldn't want to see a downside to traits unless they belong to the bullshit category.
The trait concepts need to give a new level of depth to the character, most traits already do this.
I still don't understand why zod's trait recharges so fucking fast, it basically gives him 50/50's until you guess wrong.
traited zod is like flash, but w/o having to get in to pressure.
I really like pig's design for joker
I made a thread a while ago trying to evolve the character designs to the next level.
I am very proud of my captain cold design.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/taking-injustice-character-designs-to-the-next-level-a-collective-effort.41483/

 

[juicepouch]

I wouldn't want to see a downside to traits unless they belong to the bullshit category.

this is what I wanted to say about every trait having a negative but I couldn't articulate it

 

[gdf]

Deathstroke: Concept seems fine.

Can you explain your thought process behind this?

Can you explain what you feel that Deathstroke players would disagree with on your thoughts?

 

[SneakyTortoise]

Can you explain your thought process behind this?

Can you explain what you feel that Deathstroke players would disagree with on your thoughts?

All I'm saying is that the concept of having a period where his shots are unblockable followed by a period where no bullets hit is fine. The execution of this is another matter, for example I think that deathstroke players would complain about the start up time of activating the trait and the length of the debuff. I could be completely wrong though, I don't play as deathstroke so don't really know what the issue with his trait is.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

All I'm saying is that the concept of having a period where his shots are unblockable followed by a period where no bullets hit is fine. The execution of this is another matter, for example I think that deathstroke players would complain about the start up time of activating the trait and the length of the debuff. I could be completely wrong though, I don't play as deathstroke so don't really know what the issue with his trait is.

There is no way to balance out a design like that without it being really good or near useless. Should've just been a stance change.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

There is no way to balance out a design like that without it being really good or near useless. Should've just been a stance change.

I don't see why...

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I wouldn't want to see a downside to traits unless they belong to the bullshit category.

I get that, but when I say downside, it doesn't have to be THAT negative, for example I would consider the stance change traits already having a downside as you can't use certain moves/play a certain way in the other stance.

 

[NoobHunter420]

I get that, but when I say downside, it doesn't have to be THAT negative, for example I would consider the stance change traits already having a downside as you can't use certain moves/play a certain way in the other stance.

It would be boring to have a down side on every trait, take raven for example- she would be garbage if there was a, for the sake of the argument a no fireball debuff after each trait usage.
Some characters like grundy and arrow use it so damn much, those characters are bad enough as they are w/o debuff.
One of the things that makes traits so great is that they are very unique, adding debuffs to all/most traits is very generic, I don't like generic stuff.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

It would be boring to have a down side on every trait, take raven for example- she would be garbage if there was a, for the sake of the argument a no fireball debuff after each trait usage.
Some characters like grundy and arrow use it so damn much, those characters are bad enough as they are w/o debuff.
One of the things that makes traits so great is that they are very unique, adding debuffs to all/most traits is very generic, I don't like generic stuff.

With arrow I even said I thought his is fine as the downside is that you can only have one of the 3 arrow types loaded.

I understand your point about each trait being unique, however, I don't think that making each of them require thought on when to use it would make them generic. In fact I think it would make them even more unique as different players would use trait differently in different situations, rather than every martian starting the game with trait 3.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

I don't see why...

The way it is now is near useless. The one before was just as useless. If it didn't have the damage debuff and it had faster start-up it'd be broke as hell.

 

[juicepouch]

With arrow I even said I thought his is fine as the downside is that you can only have one of the 3 arrow types loaded.

I understand your point about each trait being unique, however, I don't think that making each of them require thought on when to use it would make them generic. In fact I think it would make them even more unique as different players would use trait differently in different situations, rather than every martian starting the game with trait 3.

if grundy can't use trait as much as he does he's instantly awful. He loses his one redeeming quality (his hilariously high damage) because it's all connected to resetting into trait grab

 

[SneakyTortoise]

if grundy can't use trait as much as he does he's instantly awful. He loses his one redeeming quality (his hilariously high damage) because it's all connected to resetting into trait grab

But what I was suggesting wouldn't preventing him using the grab as much at all. Just instead of doing the damage grab twice in a row you would just have to alternate between that and the chip one. You would still continuously have at least one buff

 

[juicepouch]

But what I was suggesting wouldn't preventing him using the grab as much at all. Just instead of doing the damage grab twice in a row you would just have to alternate between that and the chip one. You would still continuously have at least one buff

What about in situations where using health trait would kill but then you have to use damage trait or chip trait instead because of this system?

 

[SneakyTortoise]

This would be a pretty rare occasion, and if it's going to kill them why do you have to worry about losing the buff? You'd have won the match...

 

[Deleted member 5032]

Deathstroke's trait is a useless nightmare. Yeah his bullets are unblockable, but they do a little more than chip damage in exchange for becoming unusable for several seconds.

One idea I had for his trait was to make the bullets track, as in they still shoot in a strait line, but they shoot towards the opponent's location at the time of being fired. Quickfire would count as a mid while traited, Low Shots would still count as a low, and Air Quick Fire would count as an overhead. It can still be blocked like normal.

Otherwise I would say have him load up special ammo like Lobo that adds to his juggle potential or something. That or allow him to switch between melee-oriented and zoning-oriented stances. Anything other than the garbage he's got right now.

 

[Killphil]

Isn't cooldown longer than it's even actually active? Combine that with huge startup and it's no wonder most DS don't use it

Doomsday. You get 5 seconds where you can't jump because you can be air juggled really easily, people can still mash d1 and keep you from doing stuff, and then when trait wears off you have a whopping 15 seconds til' you can use it again.

 

[Hini]

Sigh ok here goes.

Lets look at what the idea or the reason for traits is to begin with, they are ultimatley tools to enhance the character fantasy and drive home the uniqueness of the characters and differentiate from the rest of the cast. That said, a lot of the traits dont do this at all (I am looking at you Shazam).

See what we want here is diversity along with strengths and weaknesses for our characters and I strongly believe that adding a downside to everything is everything but diverse, you can incorporate weaknesses to characters related to their traits without adding an immediate tradeoff upon use, ultimatley characters that have overall good traits that doesnt have any apparent downsides is fine as long as the characters have other obvious weaknesses. We dont want every character in the game to be centered around their traits, a few is fine.

**Batman lives and dies by his trait bats, thats his whole thing, pressure pressure pressure, until he runs out of bats where he needs to spend meter on batarangs to continue pressure. Bats are both his strength and his weakness, he has no defense and everything is put in the offense basket. Just because he doesnt get a debuff like Bane doesnt mean he isnt really in a withdrawal mode anyway. The difference between Bane and Batman here is that the disparity of their low and high points are broader and (whats the fucking opposite of broad in this context?) lower respectively.

In general streamlined and straightforward designs which have depth are preferable which often disappears when you're trying to add a debuff to every move, it can add depth but more often than not just makes it convoluted and confusing because its not apparently obvious, it leaves you feeling weak when you cant use it (if the example here is batmans gadget restriction) instead of feeling strong when you can, eventually it becomes a clusterfuck of complexity just for the sake of complexity.

The best traits are the ones who fullfill or expand on a character fantasy and at the same time differentiates them from the rest of the cast, a trait doing either one of them is also fine.



** disclaimer, this observation about batmans strengths and weaknesses comes from a noob that enjoys fighting games from spectating more than playing, so if my observation about batman is completely off the mark then yeah, hopefully you can still see what I'm trying to say.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Joker: Concept is okay I think.

Joker: Concept is okay I think.

Joker: Concept is okay I think.

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

Cyborg should of had something like Ares or GA

+ on block projectiles, Cyborg has a lot of tech, too bad NRS wasn't creative enough to use.

Deathstroke should of had Cyborg's trait....not even, something like Jago's Instinct.

Cyborg doesn't say enough Boo-Yahs

Joker is a FLOP too. He has laughing gas that doesn't put his opponent in a laughing state. That should be his trait, a laughing gas that stuns opponent or leaving them in a laughing state. That's been Joker's most powerful gadget.


NW is a whole botch. He's never used a staff as NIGHTWING.

Here are the gadgets Nightwing is more known for using.

-Escrima sticks (NW also uses these sticks where they ricochet off his enemies, so NW can throw them in a boomerang fashion)
-Wingdings
-Batclaw (grappling hook)
-Wrist darts
-Smoke gas/Tear gas
-Taser

Tim Drake is known for the staff...even Deathstroke uses staff more than NW.

 

[The PantyChrist]

Doomsday. You get 5 seconds where you can't jump because you can be air juggled really easily, people can still mash d1 and keep you from doing stuff, and then when trait wears off you have a whopping 15 seconds til' you can use it again.

You can't be pressured or comboed or grabbed as doomie during his trait and in cooldown he just plays the game again with no negative consequence

 

[The PantyChrist]

Sigh ok here goes.

Lets look at what the idea or the reason for traits is to begin with, they are ultimatley tools to enhance the character fantasy and drive home the uniqueness of the characters and differentiate from the rest of the cast. That said, a lot of the traits dont do this at all (I am looking at you Shazam).

See what we want here is diversity along with strengths and weaknesses for our characters and I strongly believe that adding a downside to everything is everything but diverse, you can incorporate weaknesses to characters related to their traits without adding an immediate tradeoff upon use, ultimatley characters that have overall good traits that doesnt have any apparent downsides is fine as long as the characters have other obvious weaknesses. We dont want every character in the game to be centered around their traits, a few is fine.

**Batman lives and dies by his trait bats, thats his whole thing, pressure pressure pressure, until he runs out of bats where he needs to spend meter on batarangs to continue pressure. Bats are both his strength and his weakness, he has no defense and everything is put in the offense basket. Just because he doesnt get a debuff like Bane doesnt mean he isnt really in a withdrawal mode anyway. The difference between Bane and Batman here is that the disparity of their low and high points are broader and (whats the fucking opposite of broad in this context?) lower respectively.

In general streamlined and straightforward designs which have depth are preferable which often disappears when you're trying to add a debuff to every move, it can add depth but more often than not just makes it convoluted and confusing because its not apparently obvious, it leaves you feeling weak when you cant use it (if the example here is batmans gadget restriction) instead of feeling strong when you can, eventually it becomes a clusterfuck of complexity just for the sake of complexity.

The best traits are the ones who fullfill or expand on a character fantasy and at the same time differentiates them from the rest of the cast, a trait doing either one of them is also fine.



** disclaimer, this observation about batmans strengths and weaknesses comes from a noob that enjoys fighting games from spectating more than playing, so if my observation about batman is completely off the mark then yeah, hopefully you can still see what I'm trying to say.

This guy gets it

 

[Big Pampering]

The idea of making his gunshots unblockable for a set period of time and then make them miss for a set period of time sounds fine to me. What don't you like/what would you suggest?

well it isnt very effective, it barely has any uses, so there are obviously changes that need to be made.

the frames to activate it shouldn't be any slower than 5 frames imo, they could do something with his machineguns to make them more effective like better frame data and more chip so that he can use it upclose as a pressure tool. Trait have a long duration and the downside to it is if you miss a machinegunshot you will have a cooldown period of like 4 seconds. That way it wouldnt be abused as a zoning tool because it would be ridicilous with the frame data it would have.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

well it isnt very effective, it barely has any uses, so there are obviously changes that need to be made.

the frames to activate it shouldn't be any slower than 5 frames imo, they could do something with his machineguns to make them more effective like better frame data and more chip so that he can use it upclose as a pressure tool. Trait have a long duration and the downside to it is if you miss a machinegunshot you will have a cooldown period of like 4 seconds. That way it wouldnt be abused as a zoning tool because it would be ridicilous with the frame data it would have.

Yes I completely understand that. I was merely talking about the concept of the trait design and not the technical details that need to be adjusted

 

[SneakyTortoise]

Haha okay I know it's bad as it is, but I was talking about the concept of having a parry that when used successfully rewards the player. I've also posted proposed rewards that I think would have made the trait more usable. He could receive 3 buffs, one for each parry. First parry he deals 15% with the parry and his gun will now hit mid for the entirety of the match. Second parry he deals 20% damage with the parry and the canisters are now faster and the one he throws hits overhead. Third parry deals 25% damage and his teeth are now unblockable for the rest of the match.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

Sigh ok here goes.

Lets look at what the idea or the reason for traits is to begin with, they are ultimatley tools to enhance the character fantasy and drive home the uniqueness of the characters and differentiate from the rest of the cast.

Good points, thanks for elaborating and providing an actual debate. I agree that the traits should enhance the character and make them more unique, but I disagree when you say that each trait having a drawback would take away from this.

The fact that bane and deathstroke both have debuffs to their trait doesn't make them similar does it? In fact, if you watch two of the best bane's, in my opinion, Max and Grr, they both play very differently due to this trait drawback.

This is partly why I think a drawback to a trait will make each character even more unique as players would fight very differently depending on when and how they used their trait.