Correction: ALL push block setups now do 0%

[Error404]

Its funny because nobody claimed Sinestro was only good for 5-6 MUs before this tech was found . Now that they took it away all of a sudden he is a terrible character . Well I'm sorry that you don't get to have setups off of holding back .Do you even know what this setup did to characters that have no high/low mix ups ? As a DD player the only way for me to even hit you if you hold back is to use a sweep which is punishable , yet you bitch that you can't even hold back against me anymore and win the match by just pressing mb , 4 , shackles ? Pathetic . May be if you spend less time crying and more time actually learning to defend you wouldn't have such a problem and you wouldn't need exploits in the games push-block mechanic to win.

 

[Slips]

Every move in the game that was unpunishable by design was now punishable with a combo and a vortex when Sinestro had trait. (He does still get a vortex for crying out loud) When you think about what this means, it destroys the core gameplay of way too many characters. What is Superman if he can't f23? What is Frost if she can't slide? What is Doomsday if he can't shoulder? What is Batman without bat pressure? What is Black Adam without mb divekicks and b23? What is Lobo without mb hook charge? What is Hawkgirl without wing evade 3? What is Catwoman without j2? What is Flash if he can't b22 and mb torpedo on people who hold back?

ALL of these moves and more that are what make these characters good. This bug was essentially a Frost parry with 0 startup and 0 whiff animation that can not only parry mids, but lows and jump attacks as well.

If you don't see how something like that drastically changes the game I'm not sure what to say.

It sucks that Joker and Lex got hit by the blast radius of this fix, but we were looking into a dark abyss of Sinestro yellow fear if this wasn't done.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Every move in the game that was unpunishable by design was now punishable with a combo and a vortex when Sinestro had trait. (He does still get a vortex for crying out loud) When you think about what this means, it destroys the core gameplay of way too many characters. What is Superman if he can't f23? What is Frost if she can't slide? What is Doomsday if he can't shoulder? What is Batman without bat pressure? What is Black Adam without mb divekicks and b23? What is Lobo without mb hook charge? What is Hawkgirl without wing evade 3? What is Catwoman without j2? What is Flash if he can't b22 and mb torpedo on people who hold back?

ALL of these moves and more that are what make these characters good. This bug was essentially a Frost parry with 0 startup and 0 whiff animation that can not only parry mids, but lows and jump attacks as well.

If you don't see how something like that drastically changes the game I'm not sure what to say.

It sucks that Joker and Lex got hit by the blast radius of this fix, but we were looking into a dark abyss of Sinestro yellow fear if this wasn't done.

While I agree, I think there is probably a way to do this without effectively nerfing Joker and Lex. Can't speak on Lex, but teeth traps are a big part of Joker's ability to open people up and make mistakes in the footsie game. Without the threat of them, save potential corner carry or getting them to a BGB, it's a huge body blow to any potential viability he has. This Sinestro stuff can't stay in the game, but I can't agree with a death sentence for Joker and Lex in the process, regardless of how under-represented they are. There has to be a better way.

 

[Slips]

While I agree, I think there is probably a way to do this without effectively nerfing Joker and Lex. Can't speak on Lex, but teeth traps are a big part of Joker's ability to open people up and make mistakes in the footsie game. Without the threat of them, save potential corner carry or getting them to a BGB, it's a huge body blow to any potential viability he has. This Sinestro stuff can't stay in the game, but I can't agree with a death sentence for Joker and Lex in the process, regardless of how under-represented they are. There has to be a better way.

If there was a way I'm sure they would've done it. You can only do so much with hotfix numbers.

 

[chemist4hire]

Hey, how do you know if a system you are playing no has been hot fixed?

 

[Doombawkz]

Hey, how do you know if a system you are playing no has been hot fixed?

Do d.2xxLightning bomb as BA with the opponent set as Lex wake-up corps charge. Pushblock him onto the bomb. If it does more than 0.08%, you don't have the hotfix.

 

[RIF]

I was going to nominate Sinestro players as fools of the week but this RIF guy is pretty hard to beat.

You're just salty about you misunderstanding Sinestro being the one to pushblock and not the other way around.

Having said that, I'd wear the 'Fool Of The Week' title like a badge of honor.

I deal with very large software systems and you always run a risk assessment / IA when performing any of these types of changes. The impact of this change on Joker & Lex is far more problematic than tech.

There was no empirical evidence to suggest this was broken. THAT and the poorly constructed fix is my problem.

The vortex, while good, is very easy to block once you get enough practice against it. @M2Dave would agree.

 

[ReD WolF]

I love how all of a sudden, Sinestro is "done". Now because of this fix he's completely trash and nonviable blah blah..... Get the fuck outta here. Literally nothing has changed aside from removing something stupid. Pick up some kleenex and shut the fuck up.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

You're just salty about you misunderstanding Sinestro being the one to pushblock and not the other way around.

lol that was when the tech was just discovered. It was 7 am and I hadn't slept.

There was no empirical evidence to suggest this was broken. THAT and the poorly constructed fix is my problem.

Fool. It doesn't matter if it was truly broken or not. At the end of the day all it comes down to is this: WAS IT INTENDED TO BE IN THE GAME AND WORK THIS WAY? NRS said no and removed the ability to land damage from pushblock. So all your walls of text are irrelevant. You're trying to suggest that we should've given it time to see where it was going when NRS made it clear it wasn't even supposed to be in the game.

 

[Dr. Handsome]

I'm really starting to think that people will defend anything if you put it in a fighting game.

It's like, do people not realize that having a balanced game (and a diverse tournament character pool) does not happen if you just "let everything rock"?

Do people really think that just because a game is more balanced than MK9, that makes it a "balanced game"?

 

[Doombawkz]

Do people really think that just because a game is more balanced than MK9, that makes it a "balanced game"?

I think that because most characters can compete at every level of the game with a minimum of bum match-ups makes it a balanced game, but then again I started from the literal bottom of the list as a completely unviable character and eventually became on the same level as everyone else so what do I know about game balance.

 

[RIF]

I'll tell you what, if Sinestro has to take increased damage, each shot only holds for 7 seconds a piece, he loses all mobility when he has no shots, and he can't load shots for 6 seconds after the last one is fired while also dealing no damage, then I'll be happy to let him have the whole thing back.

Sinestro has to charge for 1.5 seconds. That's not much to pay for that advantage in comparison to an all-melee character who needs his trait to even exist.

Please do not bring the farce that is Bane's debuff into this conversation. It's hardly even a penalty.

Moving on.....

Can I just clarify where Sinestro players are coming from?

There is a lot of overreaction going on right now. Sinestro is a strong character. He has issues, but most of them are mitigated by trait. He's not in the upper echelon of the tier list. To claim that he would be from this tech is pure theory.

If Sinestro ALWAYS had trait and ALWAYS had meter and could ALWAYS put you into a vortex for free without fear (pun intended), then I would ask for it to be removed. In the original discovery thread, I claimed that this tech COULD very well be game changing. What I found out in actual application is that it's not exactly reality. This isn't to say that it would not develop into something that needed to be nerfed. There was just no evidence to suggest this was something that required the neutering of what was some pretty cool tech. (Again, I do think the 2 trait into vortex should have been looked at very very closely)

I am not opposed to it being removed, I am opposed to the manner/speed it was removed without evidence of efficacy.

Every move in the game that was unpunishable by design was now punishable with a combo and a vortex when Sinestro had trait. (He does still get a vortex for crying out loud) When you think about what this means, it destroys the core gameplay of way too many characters. What is Superman if he can't f23? What is Frost if she can't slide? What is Doomsday if he can't shoulder? What is Batman without bat pressure? What is Black Adam without mb divekicks and b23? What is Lobo without mb hook charge? What is Hawkgirl without wing evade 3? What is Catwoman without j2? What is Flash if he can't b22 and mb torpedo on people who hold back?

ALL of these moves and more that are what make these characters good. This bug was essentially a Frost parry with 0 startup and 0 whiff animation that can not only parry mids, but lows and jump attacks as well.

If you don't see how something like that drastically changes the game I'm not sure what to say.

It sucks that Joker and Lex got hit by the blast radius of this fix, but we were looking into a dark abyss of Sinestro yellow fear if this wasn't done.

I respect you as a player, but there are a number of inaccuracies in your post. I just want to speak in facts, nothing more.

- Sinestro needs trait and meter for this to work. People seem to think that Sinestro just gets to have trait for free. Half of the cast can make it very difficult to do so.
- Outside of the corner, the vortex required 1 bar of meter and 2 trait shots. It also was not possible on every pushblocked attack.
- Sinestro's vortex is strong, but much easier to block and react to than the versions that BG/KF have.
- Throw was always an option against this.
- Doomsday doesn't care about this tech. Neither does Bane. Grundy doesn't give a shit which is great since his bowels are inoperable.
- Bat Pressure is exactly how you stop Sinestro from getting trait
- F23 is exactly what stops Sinestro from gaining momentum

I can go on, but my point is clear: This was based on what-ifs and maybes and not actual data.

When Scorpion was nerfed, there was ACTUAL evidence that the character needed modifications. All of this discussion has been based on theory and not actual practice. MVC2 Dhalsim was supposed to be as good as the Big 4, but that never came to fruition.

I am not certain why there is an inordinate amount of hatred towards this character when there are other characters in this game FAR FAR FAR worse than Sinestro. The amount of venom (sorry Bane players) spewed by some of you over what is simply a discussion about this hotfix is quite silly. Everyone reacts when it's their character. Understand that if were to happen to the ONLY character you liked in this game, you might not be so cheery.

It's gone now, so it's all a moot point.

 

[Dirtylova]

Does the 0% combo still build meter though?

 

[Dr. Handsome]

I think that because most characters can compete at every level of the game with a minimum of bum match-ups makes it a balanced game, but then again I started from the literal bottom of the list as a completely unviable character and eventually became on the same level as everyone else so what do I know about game balance.

Eh, I'm not saying you weren't good pre-patch, seeing as how I never played you, but look what your character has become via buffs....maybe that was the point you were trying to make? And I disagree with most of the cast being tournament viable in general. We've had our surprises because the game is still somewhat new, but that's all. It took MK time to level off. Injustice will do the same.

 

[Doombawkz]

Please do not bring the farce that is Bane's debuff into this conversation. It's hardly even a penalty.

Moving on.....

Can I just clarify where Sinestro players are coming from?
-snip-

I'm sorry that you have projectiles so you don't have to care that if you get full-screen from some characters you aren't going to have good odds of getting in again? Unless you really play Bane, its not fair to say "Bane's trait is Zods level of excellence". That debuff robs us of a lot, or at least a lot more than Sinestro not having his. Sinestro needs trait to be "safe", Bane needs trait to be "remotely viable". Against some characters yeah, Debuff is a bill. Against others though, being in debuff essentially means you'll be eating 35% getting back in.

The rest is your own enchilada, not mine. The manner it was dealt with is fine as well. If people were crutching so hard on it, they need to reevaluate their characters. Removes some tools? Perhaps. Joker unviable? When was he not. They may hotfix something to help those who need it, I don't doubt they might.

Eh, I'm not saying you weren't good pre-patch, seeing as how I never played you, but look what your character has become via buffs....maybe that was the point you were trying to make? And I disagree with most of the cast being tournament viable in general. We've had our surprises because the game is still somewhat new, but that's all. It took MK time to level off. Injustice will do the same.

I'm still terrible, but Bane was hands down the worst and now he is at least top 15.
Out of the entire cast, I could name MAYBE 3 or 4 characters who aren't out of a cast of 30. That's pretty good.

 

[RIF]

lol that was when the tech was just discovered. It was 7 am and I hadn't slept.


Fool. It doesn't matter if it was truly broken or not. At the end of the day all it comes down to is this: WAS IT INTENDED TO BE IN THE GAME AND WORK THIS WAY? NRS said no and removed the ability to combo from pushblock. So all your walls of text are irrelevant. You're trying to suggest that we should've given it time to see where it was going when NRS made it clear it wasn't even supposed to be in the game.

You clearly aren't comprehending my point on this matter. I find it fascinating that for nearly a year Lex and Joker have been using Pushblock tech to their advantage, but it only became a problem when Sinestro can do something off of it. Sinestro players should be embarrassed that it took so long! (I know I am :/ ) WHAT wasn't supposed to be in the game, exactly? Sinestro's ability to combo off it, or the ability for ANY character to combo off a pushblock? If it's the latter, we've known about it for a LONG time. If it's the former, then make pushblock disable Trait usage and be done with it. Don't neuter Lex and Joker because of it.

Has NRS said anything regarding the matter?

Sort of sucks that Lex was my secondary. :/ I used this ALL the time.

 

[RIF]

I'm sorry that you have projectiles so you don't have to care that if you get full-screen from some characters you aren't going to have good odds of getting in again? Unless you really play Bane, its not fair to say "Bane's trait is Zods level of excellence". That debuff robs us of a lot, or at least a lot more than Sinestro not having his. Sinestro needs trait to be "safe", Bane needs trait to be "remotely viable". Against some characters yeah, Debuff is a bill. Against others though, being in debuff essentially means you'll be eating 35% getting back in.

The rest is your own enchilada, not mine. The manner it was dealt with is fine as well. If people were crutching so hard on it, they need to reevaluate their characters. Removes some tools? Perhaps. Joker unviable? When was he not. They may hotfix something to help those who need it, I don't doubt they might.

I am not going to draw straws over this, but many characters can duck Fear Blast from NEARLY FULL SCREEN. I am sorry Bane is not one of them. Bane is not a fair and balanced character and this tech had NO impact on that match-up. The debuff *IS* a Bill Of Goods against MOST characters. There is QUITE a bit of tech designed to mitigate that 'penalty'.

Sinestro without trait is really NOT that strong of a character against top-competition. Sinestro's trait is integral to his gameplay JUST like Bane. They both ride the Trait Bus to work. You are right though in that Zod's trait just takes a very powerful character and puts him over the top, while Bane isn't much without his.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

You clearly aren't comprehending my point on this matter. I find it fascinating that for nearly a year Lex and Joker have been using Pushblock tech to their advantage, but it only became a problem when Sinestro can do something off of it.
Sinestro players should be embarrassed that it took so long! (I know I am :/ ) WHAT wasn't supposed to be in the game, exactly? Sinestro's ability to combo off it, or the ability for ANY character to combo off a pushblock? If it's the latter, we've known about it for a LONG time. If it's the former, then make pushblock disable Trait usage and be done with it. Don't neuter Lex and Joker because of it.

Has NRS said anything regarding the matter?

Sort of sucks that Lex was my secondary. :/ I used this ALL the time.

Max already explained it to you.

Joker, Lex, Black Adam etc. needed to SETUP the pushblock trap by throwing teeth, mine or bombs on the floor and MAKING A READ that the opponent would wake up attack or counter attack.

From experience it rarely worked and it was mostly gimmicks because intentionally dropping your combo to throw a bomb on the floor made your intentions way too obvious. For the most part, only uneducated players fell for those tricks (which is why you rarely see Rico Suave go for those setups and when he does they rarely work). For Joker the pushblock traps were more useful.

But with Sinestro there is not setup and there is no read. It's just pressing a button when you're blocking and you happen to have trait.

 

[Doombawkz]

I am not going to draw straws over this, but many characters can duck Fear Blast from NEARLY FULL SCREEN. I am sorry Bane is not one of them. Bane is not a fair and balanced character and this tech had NO impact on that match-up. The debuff *IS* a Bill Of Goods against MOST characters. There is QUITE a bit of tech designed to mitigate that 'penalty'.

Sinestro without trait is really NOT that strong of a character against top-competition. Sinestro's trait is integral to his gameplay JUST like Bane. They both ride the Trait Bus to work. You are right though in that Zod's trait just takes a very powerful character and puts him over the top, while Bane isn't much without his.

Regardless, with meter Sinestro has no problem keeping out characters while Bane has a bit of a time getting in on some characters without getting his face kicked in. Slow normal attacks make it hard to approach with outside of having that armored DP to top off our moves. Against Sinestro, yeah I've said before that as a Bane I didn't care much about the tech since theres not much changed, but that doesn't mean its even or Banes favor. Its just as bad as always. Also I know, I made that bit of tech lol.

Sinestro without trait doesn't take that long to get trait back. Bane has to wait longer for level 1 cooldown than it takes for Sinestro to get trait back. Only difference is Sinestro is an accent. It covers some weaknesses, but to compare it to Bane is entirely fallacious. Its not even close to the dependency.

 

[Slips]

I respect you as a player, but there are a number of inaccuracies in your post. I just want to speak in facts, nothing more.

- Sinestro needs trait and meter for this to work. People seem to think that Sinestro just gets to have trait for free. Half of the cast can make it very difficult to do so.
- Outside of the corner, the vortex required 1 bar of meter and 2 trait shots. It also was not possible on every pushblocked attack.
- Sinestro's vortex is strong, but much easier to block and react to than the versions that BG/KF have.
- Throw was always an option against this.
- Doomsday doesn't care about this tech. Neither does Bane. Grundy doesn't give a shit which is great since his bowels are inoperable.
- Bat Pressure is exactly how you stop Sinestro from getting trait
- F23 is exactly what stops Sinestro from gaining momentum

I can go on, but my point is clear: This was based on what-ifs and maybes and not actual data.

When Scorpion was nerfed, there was ACTUAL evidence that the character needed modifications. All of this discussion has been based on theory and not actual practice. MVC2 Dhalsim was supposed to be as good as the Big 4, but that never came to fruition.

I am not certain why there is an inordinate amount of hatred towards this character when there are other characters in this game FAR FAR FAR worse than Sinestro. The amount of venom (sorry Bane players) spewed by some of you over what is simply a discussion about this hotfix is quite silly. Everyone reacts when it's their character. Understand that if were to happen to the ONLY character you liked in this game, you might not be so cheery.

It's gone now, so it's all a moot point.

I never said any of those points weren't true, so I don't know how my post was inaccurate.

Saying 'just don't let Sinestro get trait' is like saying 'don't let ST Balrog get super'. Yea it's ideal but that means there is almost no room for error which is asking too much of any player. Sinestro just has to knock you full screen and/or put you in shackles 2 or 3 times and he has trait. And now the game has changed drastically in his favor. Twice as much than what it already did before.

Getting in on Sinestro and doing a throw that only does 11% and tosses him away for free so he can run away again is not a formula to beat him.

Besides a stream of REO bodying people with Scorp and CEO which featured everyone's pocket Scorp in top 8 getting bodied, I don't see how there was much ACTUAL evidence for his modifications either. Not saying he didn't need to be nerfed some, but that's not a valid argument you're using.

I mained Deathstroke and I was perfectly fine with his nerfs. You didn't hear Batman players crying when bats got nerfed. You didn't hear Aquaman players cry when scoop and trait got nerfed. You didn't hear Frost players crying when their trait cancels got nerfed and the list goes on.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

I simply can not believe that there are people who think "free 38%" combo for blocking, granted by a trait that also protects you from being punished or approached safely, was in anyway reasonable to exist in a tournament fighting game.

You're whining that you needed 2 trait shots and a bar to execute it? I doubt anyone gives a shit. I don't care if trait takes 15 seconds to charge. Just because you're able to charge it, doesn't mean you should then be able to hover indefinitely in a "stay free lol" situation. This wasn't joker/lex setup territory. Those setups went away automatically and quickly.

If you're on game winning combo damage from dying, and sinestro gets trait and a bar, you're now in a position where:
-if you try to whiff punish, you die
-if you jump, you die
-if you whiff anything, you die

and as if that weren't crazy enough (but not OP), then...
-if you navigate through all those odds, and finally touch him, you die

Indefinitely. No expiration on it. It doesn't go away like BA's orbs. Just...take it. He's also benefiting from the fact that you HAVE to MB bounce cancel or throw just to get any damage on him, which gives him even more advantage.

Can you still win? Obviously, but the situation is absolutely absurd.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

I've been around you so much in this community in person and via podcasts/streams that I heard this entire post as if you were standing right next to me lol

Tom "THIS COMMUNITY" Brady

Love it

 

[BaronVonRupert]

The vortex, while good, is very easy to block once you get enough practice against it. @M2Dave would agree.

just because something is reactable doesn't mean "easy to block" imo. in sf a ton of stuff is reactable, such as seth's "50/50" after SPD, but top players still get hit.

 

[Icy Black Deep]

This character is finished. He will only be used in 5-6 mus in the future.

Welcome to Injustice.
There are a handful of characters with no real bad matchups. Everyone else has some kind of terrible matchup.
You can choose to play a character from the first group or you can learn an alt.

 

[Big Pampering]

the sinestro players that are crying should just be thankful nrs gave you a mid-hitting string to begin with, that thing reaches hella far. Sinestro really is one of the most complete characters. He can zone, has a vortex, isnt free on wakeup, has good rushdown with trait, has a far reaching normal to play footsies with what more can you ask for. Im sorry you can't get a guaranteed combo off of a pushblock and even then he still has stuff off of pushblock.