The Balance Effect: It's A Fighting Game.

[Snolla]

I recently read Chessmasters thread called "Crying For Nerf/Buffs," and it gave me a thought. I also have been studying martial arts for quite a few years and when I compare my old karate tournaments to this game I thought, "At every tournament I went too, there would be many strong black belt opponents. Each black belt opponent would have their strengths and weaknesses and, though they would be matched by ranking, there would inevitably be standouts and ones who fall slightly behind." This is one of the many principles of the martial arts/fighting world.

Then I applied this thought to MK9 when I started reading that other post about how people are very upset with the matchups. Think of this game as each characters one showing at the karate tournament like I mentioned earlier. There is one chance to show your skills and though they can update these characters and nerf/buff, they will always carry the same movelist and/or play styles. It is as if they showed up one day to fight and that is the level they are at on that day in this game. I am speaking in the context of a martial arts based game and nothing else. NRS had one chance to create these characters for the tournament, did so very well IMO, and must now patch things up here and there. However it will not change that this is a game based on fighting were matchups play a massive role and certain fighters will have their day in this game/tournament while others fall short in areas.

Also it is true that there are many battles happening in this game at any one moment so how can that be considered one day of fighting? How can all these different matchups and unpredictable circumstances such as individual player skill actually amount to one day? Well it doesn't, this is purely a thought made based on the effort NRS made with their one shot at a large roster and I think they have done very well in bringing us the MK we've all wanted for years. The characters are closely balanced however some fall behind and some stand out. It is a principle of the martial arts and fighting in general on a single day of a tournament were all the fighters are of the same ranking, there will be ones that are slightly better and ones that are slightly worse and thats how I look at it with NRS because they really only got one ultimate shot. Much time to plan but release day was it.

As for nerfs/buffs, they are good things that improve the gameplay, however do not forget that fighting is one of the most unpredictable, in the moment acts in the world and this represents one meeting of all these characters, however in different hands.

Here is a sick video of an amazing martial art, Shotokan Karate.

 

[THTB]

Obligatory applaud smiley, for this post was really good.

:congrats:

 

[Snolla]

Obligatory applaud smiley, for this post was really good.

:congrats:

Thanks brotha, just sitting here wondering about things

EDIT: Oh, and if you guys love fighting games so much, take up a martial art. It doesn't mean you have to be a professional fighter. It gets you into great shape quickly and teaches you how to defend yourself. You can also apply your mixup game to real life

 

[Name v.5.0]

Yeah, just take out the broken shit like glitches, infinites and super resets (Cyrax). There really is no need nerf or buff characters anymore. It's silly. Good post

 

[Snolla]

Yeah, just take out the broken shit like glitches, infinites and super resets (Cyrax). There really is no need nerf or buff characters anymore. It's silly. Good post

The cyrax thing really grinds my gears.

 

[Abra Kapocus]

Krav Maga is top tier.

 

[Sasuga]

Good post. I don't fully agree with the analogy but I do with the underlying message.

Oh, and if you guys love fighting games so much, take up a martial art. It doesn't mean you have to be a professional fighter. It gets you into great shape quickly and teaches you how to defend yourself. You can also apply your mixup game to real life

Haha, is practicing fighting games not essentially the same? To me there is hardly a difference. You can dress up like an MK ninja to eliminate the need for self defense btw.

Btw, for a shotokan karateka, shouldn't you be playing 'that other game'?

 

[DanCock]

so the game shouldnt be nerfed or buffed BUT cyrax is annoying and needs a nerf wtf how can you guys type that?????????


try using a character from day one and knowing that if a buff never comes for sindel i have a 5% chance of winning a tournament.. thankfully they are buffing her. Now the other side of the coin the sindel that was in the game before any patch would be s tier I WOULD LOVE FOR THAT SINDEL TO RETURN, but they said shes not getting that stuff back..

anyway i say nerfs and buffs are needed, i want that Quan Chi player to go to a tournament and say "yep i have a chance of winning this thing".

 

[GERNBURGS]

... The characters are closely balanced however some fall behind and some stand out. It is a principle of the martial arts and fighting in general on a single day of a tournament were all the fighters are of the same ranking, there will be ones that are slightly better and ones that are slightly worse ... do not forget that fighting is one of the most unpredictable, in the moment acts in the world and this represents one meeting of all these characters, however in different hands.

Here' my issue with what you're saying: A fighting game is a video game, it's not a real fight and there's no variables like physical strength or size you can train or improve on, it's just a player with a controller. Fighting games absolutely incorporate aspects of real fighting; as you said, they incorporate the fast pace and unpredictability of combat into the game, that's kind of like the "soul" of the fighting game gnre.

However, because you can't go out and lift weights to get bigger and stronger to improve the character's damage or speed, the character DOES need to have the proper basic tools from the get-go, then you can unlock the power within those techniques and hopefully improve until you can beat anyone using any other character. If your character doesn't have the tools to begin with, nothing you can do will make them viable. In the same vein, if a character has a tool that's too strong or broken, making it extremely difficult to defend against, it can easily ruin the game if it's not patched out or banned. In real fighting you can add tools to your arsenal, in a fighting game you can't, they have to be there to begin with. If the tools aren't there you're at a disadvantage and you really can't do THAT MUCH about it.

The whole idea of balance (which can NEVER be 100% perfect, but it can be done really damn well... ahem... *cough* Virtua Fighter) is to give the all of the characters enough tools, while still being unique, that the outcome of any match is based purely on player skill and yomi and not because one character is so much better than the others that it's too hard to win with anyone but the broken character. There's no broken fighting game that's really all that fun, eventually you KNOW you're going to run into that same old, tired broken strategy that makes all of your skill and practice worthless -- that's a bad fighting game. Balance is so crucial to any video game (i.e. the guns in an FPS) but especially in a fighting game.

Honestly, NRS did cut some corners by giving every character a very similar set of basic moves such as jump punch/kick and the down-pokes. That makes balancing easier but it sacrifices the uniqueness of each character.

 

[Snolla]

Here' my issue with what you're saying: A fighting game is a video game, it's not a real fight and there's no variables like physical strength or size you can train or improve on, it's just a player with a controller. Fighting games absolutely incorporate aspects of real fighting; as you said, they incorporate the fast pace and unpredictability of combat into the game, that's kind of like the "soul" of the fighting game gnre.

However, because you can't go out and lift weights to get bigger and stronger to improve the character's damage or speed, the character DOES need to have the proper basic tools from the get-go, then you can unlock the power within those techniques and hopefully improve until you can beat anyone using any other character. If your character doesn't have the tools to begin with, nothing you can do will make them viable. In the same vein, if a character has a tool that's too strong or broken, making it extremely difficult to defend against, it can easily ruin the game if it's not patched out or banned. In real fighting you can add tools to your arsenal, in a fighting game you can't, they have to be there to begin with. If the tools aren't there you're at a disadvantage and you really can't do THAT MUCH about it.

The whole idea of balance (which can NEVER be 100% perfect, but it can be done really damn well... ahem... *cough* Virtua Fighter) is to give the all of the characters enough tools, while still being unique, that the outcome of any match is based purely on player skill and yomi and not because one character is so much better than the others that it's too hard to win with anyone but the broken character. There's no broken fighting game that's really all that fun, eventually you KNOW you're going to run into that same old, tired broken strategy that makes all of your skill and practice worthless -- that's a bad fighting game. Balance is so crucial to any video game (i.e. the guns in an FPS) but especially in a fighting game.

Honestly, NRS did cut some corners by giving every character a very similar set of basic moves such as jump punch/kick and the down-pokes. That makes balancing easier but it sacrifices the uniqueness of each character.

Yes, it is a video game but it is based (however much so is your opinion) on the physics of real world fighting. Proper distancing from an opponent, proper reaction, analysis of opponents strengths and weaknesses, mind games, there are properties of real martial arts in this game believe it or not. And based on what you've stated in the bulk of your paragraph it appears you actually agree with me and that it cannot be 100% perfect which was the underlying point that I was trying to make. I'm aware that its a game but I get a very similar rush from fighting someone online in this game and have to find a similar mindset as per too the one I use when I'm in the ring myself (similar, not exactly the same). The one thing I disagree with in your post is that you cannot make your characters bigger and stronger as you can in training mode (not change the moves but level up your abilities and familiarity with said character). This posts main point however is to cut NRS some slack because they only had one shot (which is why its like showing up too a tournament, one shot too see all your opponents and go) at giving them the Proper Tools and they did pretty good considering the cast and the amount of different tools each fighter has.

 

[Snolla]

Good post. I don't fully agree with the analogy but I do with the underlying message.




Btw, for a shotokan karateka, shouldn't you be playing 'that other game'?

Ahaha do so every week Slip some video games in between

 

[Snolla]

so the game shouldnt be nerfed or buffed BUT cyrax is annoying and needs a nerf wtf how can you guys type that?????????

Dramatic much? lol, it's understood that nerfs and buffs are a good thing. Thats the closing part of my post.

 

[VIDA]

Krav Maga is top tier.

MMA is better tier .

 

[Snolla]

MMA is better tier .

If an MMA Master met a Krav Maga Master in the street, the MMA guy would have his nuts ripped off, his feet stomped, and his eyes gouged out before you could even think about scoring a takedown.

 

[VIDA]

If an MMA Master met a Krav Maga Master in the street, the MMA guy would have his nuts ripped off, his feet stomped, and his eyes gouged out before you could even think about scoring a takedown.

Oh do maga guys deal with boxing and MT so super easy as well?

Listen I haven't seen it but I doubt sum1 like GSP is having much trouble with the greatest krav guy at 185-190 lbs even in a street or club.

But w/e I guess I can't really say 4 sure 4 sure.

 

[SpyderJ]

Oh do maga guys deal with boxing and MT so super easy as well?

Listen I haven't seen it but I doubt sum1 like GSP is having much trouble with the greatest krav guy at 185-190 lbs even in a street or club.

But w/e I guess I can't really say 4 sure 4 sure.

Oh god, if your stepping into actual martial arts, and not a clustered MMA with all unrefined techniques and your attempting to put down Krav Maga of all the martial arts that you could choose, then sry mate, you have no clue what your talking about. ( I know krav maga was reffered so its the one you directed ur point at, but still) Also sry if im sounding like an elitist or something, but you just kinda jumped the gun on all variables and tried to say the UFC of all things is basicaly the best out there. MMA is good, and for more of a beat downish semi technical fighting setting it works, but please dont attempt to put down actual martial arts masters.

 

[Snolla]

Oh do maga guys deal with boxing and MT so super easy as well?

Listen I haven't seen it but I doubt sum1 like GSP is having much trouble with the greatest krav guy at 185-190 lbs even in a street or club.

But w/e I guess I can't really say 4 sure 4 sure.

Because boxing and muay thai are the only martial arts practiced in mma. And Nick Diaz is going to beat GSP. You know who Diaz is right??

 

[Klunker]

EDIT: Oh, and if you guys love fighting games so much, take up a martial art. It doesn't mean you have to be a professional fighter. It gets you into great shape quickly and teaches you how to defend yourself. You can also apply your mixup game to real life

Everyone is kind of chubby in your video... =(

 

[Snolla]

Everyone is kind of chubby in your video... =(

They probably have the cardiovascular endurance and strength of an ox. Being ripped doesn't mean your necessarily in good shape.

 

[VIDA]

Because boxing and muay thai are the only martial arts practiced in mma. And Nick Diaz is going to beat GSP. You know who Diaz is right??

Where did I say MT and boxing are the only arts on mma?

And I fucking love Nick "ain't no bitch" Diaz. GSP is the fav but who knows Diaz is awesome off his back if he gets td'd. Should be an awesome fight for sure.

 

[VIDA]

Oh god, if your stepping into actual martial arts, and not a clustered MMA with all unrefined techniques and your attempting to put down Krav Maga of all the martial arts that you could choose, then sry mate, you have no clue what your talking about. ( I know krav maga was reffered so its the one you directed ur point at, but still) Also sry if im sounding like an elitist or something, but you just kinda jumped the gun on all variables and tried to say the UFC of all things is basicaly the best out there. MMA is good, and for more of a beat downish semi technical fighting setting it works, but please dont attempt to put down actual martial arts masters.

I'm not dissing krav. Actually home boy OP dissed MMA if anything. I simply stated that a sport that basically establishes the best all around fighters in the world is obviously super legit, and I'm just doubtful that krav beats straight up in the street.

From what ive heard maga is decently applicable to diff street scenarios, that's when it's not the Mcdojo brand that's been hurting it's community apparently. Idk that much about it, I've seen techniques that I didn't think much but w/e I guess I can't say 4 sure 4 sure, but I'm not calling it crap.

I just think mma is more useful.

As for mmartists being semi efficient at diff arts, no one as of yet has mastered every art they utilize, but they usually master one and come close to mastering others to complement, at the higher levels that is. Cross training is just part of open style fighting. Ppl try to excel at all arts used as much as possible. Nothing fundamentally unrefined and lacking about that.

 

[Snolla]

Actually home boy OP dissed MMA if anything.

In the ring MMA would trounce Krav Maga. In the street not so much. That's all I'm saying homie.

 

[HurlingDervish]

I like the post but the analogy would work better for 3D fighters like virtua fighter or even Soul Calibur where every character has more options than they need. I say this because in real life the limits of what you ultimately could succeed with are not set in stone. People can excel in different areas because everyone has two arms and two legs. Your tools in MK are limited for each character. You really don't have that same freedom of say...only ever zoning with rushdown focused character. When you do that you give up the things that the character excels at. The specializations have already been guided for you. If you choose to not take advantage of a characters specialization, you will be hurting yourself even if you get good with it. The part that sucks about this is that it forces people who could have been really good with a certain character to jump ship to something that better fits their style, and usually its a character they don't particularly like. What I want to see is either open up the fighting styles to be more "modular" or the option to select alternately balanced characters (eg: decide to nerf a move you don't think fits your style in order to buff one that you do, to a reasonable degree. or even remove ones to add ones like ultra/assist selects)