Something that SERIOUSLY bothers me...

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I hear your point man!

But this is a constructive rebuttal. At the beginning of an NFL season they always rank and say who is the best. Lets say the browns are picked to win it all (lol). At the end of the season the browns finished horribly. People dont say... Well the browns (lol) on paper/chart is the best team so even though they didnt have a winning record we should still give them the trophy.

It is the results that matter man!

there is a huge difference though

there is only ONE variable in the NFL. No one is "playing" the nfl players

 

[NKZero]

Theory fighting is for scrubs, has no place in the real world. Its nothing but message board fodder.

Well then it should suit you just fine...

 

[jaym7018]

Then the best player for each character need to sit down and have a ft10 at least. A ft2/3 tournament match will not prove a MU too much. It mainly proves who the better player is.

I agree with this. But tourney results carry much more weight than "so and so beats so and so 7-3 cause hes punishes that move easlily with this move" even when that theory has no real life data to base that on.

 

[Bildslash]

In the smash brothers community, they have their shit together. I also come from this community so long ago.
They have a "back room", this is a closed off small group of top level members.
Only these handful of people are the ones making the tier lists for the game.

This is something that I've been curious about for a while.

What exactly do the Smash Bros community do to make that formula work?

Here in this community, the "back room" has normally been REO, Tom Brady and some other players close to them coming up with tier lists. As expected heavy debate starts regarding those tier lists, but the community as a whole never ends up accepting those tier lists.

What should we (as a community) be doing to promote debate while, at the same time, respecting the authority of the players behind those tier lists?

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

I feel people forget to factor in a players skill when talking about tiers. Remember a shitty character can look god tier in the right hands. (For example Ray Rays sentinel in UMVC3). We had 2 sinestros in top 8. Sinestro is top 5 now? It's funny cuz p2w and woundcowboy play the same character COMPLETELY different.

A lot of tier list are based off of a characters tools, match ups and TOURNAMENT PLACINGS. When a character is played in a tournament, there is a player behind it.

I believe if tiers didn't exist this community would thrive a lot more. Since it is a fighting game though, tiers will exist. I know that. Hopefully once the game becomes to get older, people will look past tiers and more to play styles. That way it will be based more on the better player, rather then the better counter pick. Not saying this game is a counter pick game, but i feel that is what i may become in time.

 

[jaym7018]

I hear your point man!

But this is a constructive rebuttal. At the beginning of an NFL season they always rank and say who is the best. Lets say the browns are picked to win it all (lol). At the end of the season the browns finished horribly. People dont say... Well the browns (lol) on paper/chart is the best team so even though they didnt have a winning record we should still give them the trophy.

It is the results that matter man!

You can sum up this post with 2012-2013 Lakers.

 

[jaym7018]

If reo and tom brady play in tournament.
What is the difference between that and them playing for 5 hours straight and not moving.

Nothing.... Both situations have top level players playing the game.
A match does not have to be labeled as a tournament match for it to be played at the highest possible level.
It is not like everyone who enters a tournament, they all enter Super saiyan mode as the first match begins and they all gain omega level.

Sure, there is a trophy and money on the line, but the game is still being played out at high level.
That is all you need to be able to determine match ups.

Your post contained: theory fighting, tournament matchs.
What happened to training matches?
Did we all just stop playing the game and only play at tournament?
Tell me how training does not contribute to tier lists?

Well a tourney is the best time to guage cause it guarantess everyone is trying to play there best. Using casuals which may or may not be taken seriously isnt ideal for determining match ups.

 

[zaf]

This is something that I've been curious about for a while.

What exactly do the Smash Bros community do to make that formula work?

Here in this community, the "back room" has normally been REO, Tom Brady and some other players close to them coming up with tier lists. As expected heavy debate starts regarding those tier lists, but the community as a whole never ends up accepting those tier lists.

What should we (as a community) be doing to promote debate while, at the same time, respecting the authority of the players behind those tier lists?

Most of the top players in this community, could come up witha tier list that they all agree on together.
I have worked on tier lists for inj early in the game with reo, jer, tom, dave, j360 and alot more people.
We were all able to decide on one tier list and be happy with it. It was even posted here on tym.
The only people who did not agree with the list, were the players who do not understand the game, understand tier lists or for some other reason just had a strange arguement.

The thing about the backroom members for smash, is what they say is to be taken as the final product.
If you have a different opinion or other people do, no one cares. The back room does not care, the tournament players do not care.
No shits are given. You are not the back room, you do not get to decide.

The thing about the backroom, is a tier list will not be released until they have all agreed upon one.
usually there are never any disagreements.

So if we are to do this sort of thing, a group of top level players should make a tier list.
Then when your doombawkz's, your maximusroman's and other strange fellows come along and disagree you ignore them and tell them it is too bad, this is the tier list for the game.


=]

 

[zaf]

Well a tourney is the best time to guage cause it guarantess everyone is trying to play there best. Using casuals which may or may not be taken seriously isnt ideal for determining match ups.

Like I said, there is nothing magical about when a tournament starts.
You do not become this alternate reality super hero that just plays better.
Two days before a tourney when you are practicing and getting ready and also the day of the tournament, you will be playing the exact same.
Nothing will change, you will be the SAME.

So yes casuals do matter if you are training. Because you want to get better, you want to overcome what makes the match hard for you. Or you want to work on an aspect of the game such as anti airing. So you will always be playing at your best.

How do players even get better at match ups? train.

 

[Bildslash]

Most of the top players in this community, could come up witha tier list that they all agree on together.
I have worked on tier lists for inj early in the game with reo, jer, tom, dave, j360 and alot more people.
We were all able to decide on one tier list and be happy with it. It was even posted here on tym.
The only people who did not agree with the list, were the players who do not understand the game, understand tier lists or for some other reason just had a strange arguement.

The thing about the backroom members for smash, is what they say is to be taken as the final product.
If you have a different opinion or other people do, no one cares. The back room does not care, the tournament players do not care.
No shits are given. You are not the back room, you do not get to decide.

The thing about the backroom, is a tier list will not be released until they have all agreed upon one.
usually there are never any disagreements.

So if we are to do this sort of thing, a group of top level players should make a tier list.
Then when your doombawkz's, your maximusroman's and other strange fellows come along and disagree you ignore them and tell them it is too bad, this is the tier list for the game.


=]

I guess the time is right to get this done in an official way with TYM's staff support.

The best way for it to be respected by the community as whole is if the site itself presents those tier lists as the official tier lists.

 

[xWildx]

Your ''casual'' words are full of shit.
If that's just ''a game'' for you , don't post in here.
This is a competitive site and many of the players here gain/gained money from MK/Inj.

Please just shut the fuck up. I've been posting here for years, and one random forum no-name isn't going to change that. Especially when probably more than half the people here don't even attend any tournaments.

 

[zaf]

I guess the time is right to get this done in an official way with TYM's staff support.

The best way for it to be respected by the community as whole is if the site itself presents those tier lists as the official tier lists.

Yup. People need to realize they are not qualified to understand what makes an actual tier list.
Especially if you have been playing fighting games for 1-2 years.

Compare that to some of our seasoned players who have been playing fighters for 5-7 years now.

 

[jaym7018]

Like I said, there is nothing magical about when a tournament starts.
You do not become this alternate reality super hero that just plays better.
Two days before a tourney when you are practicing and getting ready and also the day of the tournament, you will be playing the exact same.
Nothing will change, you will be the SAME.

So yes casuals do matter if you are training. Because you want to get better, you want to overcome what makes the match hard for you. Or you want to work on an aspect of the game such as anti airing. So you will always be playing at your best.

How do players even get better at match ups? train.

There is nothing magical about casuals either. I literally watch casuals in the hotel room 2 days ago bunch of them were goofing off while playing, that environmemt is not all those players at their best.

 

[Bildslash]

Yup. People need to realize they are not qualified to understand what makes an actual tier list.
Especially if you have been playing fighting games for 1-2 years.

Compare that to some of our seasoned players who have been playing fighters for 5-7 years now.

I agree.

Hopefully this "back room" idea can take off as soon as possible so we can get the first official tier list after the patch for v1.06 is released.

 

[jaym7018]

Yup. People need to realize they are not qualified to understand what makes an actual tier list.
Especially if you have been playing fighting games for 1-2 years.

Compare that to some of our seasoned players who have been playing fighters for 5-7 years now.

This is wrong on every level. Ive been playing fighting games as long as anyone here that doesnt mean im qualified to speak on a tier list.

 

[Duck Nation]

Compare that to some of our seasoned players who have been playing fighters for 5-7 years now.

Just to play devil's advocate, I've been playing fighters longer than SonicFox has been alive. Does that automatically qualify me more for making tier lists?

 

[ELC]

It's true knowledge without skill is mere theory fighting. But what about skill without knowledge? What if you knew nothing of high-level play and bodied everybody you did play because they couldn't block properly? What if that was high-level play?

There's a reason why scientific method goes: hypothesis->experimentation->conclusion. A theory that's put to the test in practice is how the scientist (in this case, player) becomes more knowledgeable about the experiment (in this case, game), while practice in general helps develop rigor (in this case, good fundamentals).

 

[zaf]

This is wrong on every level. Ive been playing fighting games as long as anyone here that doesnt mean im qualified to speak on a tier list.

No it is not wrong.
You have been playing fighting games for a while, but do you understand them to the core?
that might be the difference here.

Just to play devil's advocate, I've been playing fighters longer than SonicFox has been alive. Does that automatically qualify me more for making tier lists?

No that does not. He might understand them better while being very young, but people like sonixfox and forever king are exceptions to the rule.
As for your situation, you might of been playing them for as long as he has been alive, but have you been playing them competitively and trying to break down each and every character of all the games you have played?

 

[G4S Killin Natzees]

zaf your posts are so on-point tonight lol. TYM needs a back room lol

 

[Law Hero]

I didn't read each post in the thread, but I did want to mention that Injustice isn't the only game with this kind of "problem."

Don't know how many people here play Tekken or listen to the ATP podcast, but they recently discussed something similar to this. The idea of there being a difference between on paper success and tournament success was brought up. They were talking about how certain characters are very top tier on paper, but rarely do well or show up in tournament. One theory was that while a character may have all the right tools, they could be difficult to use properly. A character might have all the tools to be the best in the game, but unless the player has extraordinary fundamentals, knowledge, and execution, those won't mean much. It was mentioned that there could be an "on paper" tier list and a "real life" tier list. Perhaps a character with lots of tools PLUS ease of use will do much better than one with amazing tools that require tons of effort, practice, and execution.

I think it could very well be that the characters that are so prevalent in these top 8's are often the ones that are not only good, but relatively easy to use compared to the rest of the cast. Characters like The Flash who often make top 5 and top 10 on lists might require the player to have exceptional amounts of experience in order to properly use his tools, and because of this, a character with tools equally as good but easier to use will definitely see more play. I think it makes a lot of sense and applies to all fighting games.

tl;dr: I believe ease of use plays a big factor, and that if there are two characters will similarly good tools, the one that's easier to use will definitely do better in a high-stakes, high-pressure situation.

 

[jaym7018]

It's true knowledge without skill is mere theory fighting. But what about skill without knowledge? What if you knew nothing of high-level play and bodied everybody you did play because they couldn't block properly? What if that was high-level play?

There's a reason why scientific method goes: hypothesis->experimentation->conclusion. A theory that's put to the test in practice is how the scientist (in this case, player) becomes more knowledgeable about the experiment (in this case, game), while practice in general helps develop rigor (in this case, good fundamentals).

If the people you are playing cant block properly you are playing bad players and any opinions your form from playing those players should be disregarded. Bottom line if you are gonna say a match up is 7-3 real life better support that argument otherwise that "hypothesis" is wrong.

 

[zaf]

zaf your posts are so on-point tonight lol. TYM needs a back room lol

Check any thread I have posted on since the releasse of INJ.
I have always been on point

 

[Duck Nation]

No that does not. He might understand them better while being very young, but people like sonixfox and forever king are exceptions to the rule.

Basically what I was tilting at. Except I don't think they are necessarily big exceptions, because...

As for your situation, you might of been playing them for as long as he has been alive, but have you been playing them competitively and trying to break down each and every character of all the games you have played?

Exactly. A lot of this comes down to commitment. There are multiple pillars to be considered, anyways - I should be a better player than I am, given how long I've been playing fighters. But even though I've developed my fundamentals to a pretty high level and my understanding of theory is solid, in practice I often wind up not great because I'm too lazy to learn all my combos or learn the eccentricities and minutiae of matchups. You don't necessarily have to have every single pillar of being a great player down to have meaningful discussions about a game - it just depends on what exactly is being discussed.

 

[zaf]

There is nothing magical about casuals either. I literally watch casuals in the hotel room 2 days ago bunch of them were goofing off while playing, that environmemt is not all those players at their best.

That is not training. People are having fun man.
I mean actual training dude. You know, when you sit down with your partners, discuss things while playing.

The situation you described to me, I would also say is not the right environment .
but you seem to be ignoring the environment that I have been describing.

 

[G4S Killin Natzees]

Check any thread I have posted on since the releasse of INJ.
I have always been on point

I haven't been around lately lol. I'll take your word for it though, keep that truth spreading though, not enough of it lies on these forums lol