Guides on punishing?

[PrinceCola]

I play both MK9 and Injustice and in both i have the same problem. Usually everyone i meet is super aggressive, so i have to block a lot. But i struggle to "punish" them. I think that is the word for it. Even if i block i am pushed away, or the enemy goes into another combo/special right after.

Any tips in general with punishing? It is not just with certain characters.


Thanks in advance.

-Noob

 

[Matix218]

I play both MK9 and Injustice and in both i have the same problem. Usually everyone i meet is super aggressive, so i have to block a lot. But i struggle to "punish" them. I think that is the word for it. Even if i block i am pushed away, or the enemy goes into another combo/special right after.

Any tips in general with punishing? It is not just with certain characters.


Thanks in advance.

-Noob

You have to know what is and what is not punishable. That is most likely why you are having an issue where you try to punish something and you end up getting hit by something else. In fighting games there are certain moves/strings/specials that are punishable and ones that are safe. Also some moves are only punishable from certain ranges and are safe from other ranges (ie safe from 3/4 screen to full screen but punishable from closer than 3/4 screen).

To add further depth/complexity, sometimes certain characters have specific moves/specials that can punish specific things that specific opponents do (ie Deathstroke can punish batman's grappling hook on block from any range, even full screen with his quickshots).

I dont know how deeply you know about terminoligy in fighting games but basically you will hear these terms a lot and they pertain to what you are asking about:

-"safe on block" This means that when a certain move is blocked you can get your character to block before your opponent will have an opportunity to punish you.

-"full combo punishable on block" This means that a certain move can be punished by a full combo/launcher if your opponent blocks it.

-"advantage on block" This means that a certain move gives you frames of advantage when your opponent blocks it. This means it is not only safe, but you actually can follow up with more pressure afterwards because it forces your opponent to continue blocking.

-"frame data" This is the numerical/mathematical breakdown of fighting games by individual frames. For example, Injustice/MK9 run at 60 frames per second. Moves have start-up frames (which is how long it takes for the move to become active) which all vary (fast start-up moves would be around 7 frames, a slower move would be 12 frames, etc). Frame data also can show you which moves are safe/punishable/advantage/etc. For example, if you do a move that is -6 frames on block, in many cases this move will be safe, since many characters fastest punish move is 7 frames. If you do a move that is -12 on block, that would be full combo punishable. If you do a move that is +3 on block, you are at advantage and can continue with followup pressure because your opponent (in most cases) will be forced to continue blocking while you will be able to start up another move. Frame data gets very complex and it is basically how people break down a game and a character in high level play. Generally top tournament players literally memorize most of their (and their opponents) key moves and their block/startup frame data so they know how to approach their opponent and punish in the most effective/reliable way. This probably seems like an overwhelming thing and in all honesty, it really is lol. This is why you have to put many hours in in many different matchups and even study data in order to be a top player. Injustice actually lists the moves frame data in the move list for every move in the game (although I know some of it is not 100% accurate as of now).

The best place to start in finding out how to best punish with your specific character(s) is to look up the information in the sticky threads on your specific character's forum on this site. Also you can ask specific match-up related questions to other forum members who can help share their knowledge with you.

Hopefully this was not too much information lol

 

[PrinceCola]

So -6 means 6 recovery frames? But what is the difference between plus and minus?

 

[Gurpwnder]

So -6 means 6 recovery frames? But what is the difference between plus and minus?

-6 means the attacker recovers 6 frames AFTER you do. +6 means that the attacker recovers 6 frames BEFORE you do.

 

[Matix218]

So -6 means 6 recovery frames? But what is the difference between plus and minus?

I am not a true expert fighting game player so maybe my explanation was not as clear as I had hoped but I will try to explain it as best as I can, other players could probably help more with this but I will try.



If you do a move that is minus 6 on block, it would mean that after your move is blocked your move could be punished only if the opponent has a move that is 5 frames or faster (which is rare, so minus 6 is (generally) a safe move. If the opponent does not have a move that is 5 frames or faster on start-up you will be able to perform another action (most likely block) before your opponent can hit you with a "punisher" move.

Now, if you do a move that is say, minus 10 on block, that means that if your opponent follows up with a fast punisher move (7, 8 or 9 frame start up move) you will not be able to perform any action (jump, block, dash, walk etc) before the opponents move comes out and you will be hit by the move. IE, you will get punished for doing the "unsafe" move that you did.

If you do a move that is 0 (zero/neutral) on block, both players are on an even playing field frame wise (neither is at any frame disadvantage or advantage in this situation).

If you do a move that is say plus 2 or 3 on block, you are at frame advantage meaning that you will have an opportunity to perform an action (another move/string, dash, jump, block, walk, etc) before your opponent is out of their blockstun. These are what is known as "frame traps" because you are using your plus frames (advantage frames) to "trap" your opponent for followup pressure/mixups because they cannot safely do anything other than block.

Somberness is the site's resident frame data guru so he would be great to help you with your questions as well.

-Matix

 

[PrinceCola]

Oh man...so basically to become a pro fighter you need to learn the frames of every character?

 

[PrinceCola]

Could someone tell me what the difference is between an high attack and overhead? I see that back block blocks both anyway, so what is the difference?

 

[Braindead]

Could someone tell me what the difference is between an high attack and overhead? I see that back block blocks both anyway, so what is the difference?

when blocking LOW and overhead attack hits you, you must block it high (back). A high hit can be blocked low or may whiff when blocked low.
both these attacks can be blocked high (back) as you said.

 

[Braindead]

this link might be useful for you
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games

 

[PrinceCola]

Hm...i still don't get it lol. High and overhead is both blocked by high right? Then what is the difference?

 

[insomnia_ftw]

Hm...i still don't get it lol. High and overhead is both blocked by high right? Then what is the difference?

You HAVE to block an overhead standing, because it will hit you if you crouch. A high attack can be blocked either way but they usually just miss if you crouch.

Overheads cannot be blocked by crouching.

 

[PrinceCola]

Oh, so if i crouch a high attack will miss? I thought it worked like this: High hits you if you are low, low if you are standing block?

 

[insomnia_ftw]

Oh, so if i crouch a high attack will miss? I thought it worked like this: High hits you if you are low, low if you are standing block?

yeah usually it will miss, if it doesn't though you will just block it because it's not an overhead. Here's how the hit positions work:

High: Can hit opponents standing, misses opponents crouching. Can be blocked standing/crouching
Mid: Can hit opponents standing or crouching. Can be blocked standing/crouching
Low: Can hit opponents standing or crouching. Can only be blocked crouching
Overhead: Can hit opponents standing or crouching. Can only be blocked standing

Hopefully that helps a bit, I think you had high and overhead attacks mixed up. As you can see, lows and overheads can only be blocked ONE way. That's why you'll see the term "50/50" or sometimes "high/low mixup" thrown around a lot for situations where the opponent has to guess whether they should block high or low.

 

[PrinceCola]

Ooo, i think i get it! I get it...now for world domination.


Thanks for your reply, it was very simple to understand. Matixe's reply was a little confusing.
Oh, i also don't know what a whiff is...is it a hit that does 0% dmg?

 

[insomnia_ftw]

Ooo, i think i get it! I get it...now for world domination.


Thanks for your reply, it was very simple to understand. Matixe's reply was a little confusing.
Oh, i also don't know what a whiff is...is it a hit that does 0% dmg?

Nah, whiff is just another way of saying the move missed. So when you see people talking about "whiff punishing" they mean punishing a move that misses or doesn't reach you. That's where the term "footsies" comes in. Footsies is where you walk back and forth just barely inside and outside your opponent's range to try and get them to throw out a move that will whiff, and then you punish it.

Whiff punishing can be much better than normal punishing because you don't have to wait for your character to stop blocking before you can get a move out (since the other guy didn't hit you). Because of that, you can sometimes do a full combo on someone because you don't have to use your fastest move in order to catch them.

Glad I could help. Fire away with any other questions you have.

 

[PrinceCola]

Aha! So basically just punish whey they miss? Cool. I have to try it out more...i always block instead of trying to avoid then punish.

Thanks again!

 

[insomnia_ftw]

Aha! So basically just punish whey they miss? Cool. I have to try it out more...i always block instead of trying to avoid then punish.

Thanks again!

Yep that's it. Although you aren't always going to get their attack to miss, it's important to be able to recognize and react to a whiff when you see it. So if you are crouching and your opponent does a high attack, you can hit them hit a crouching attack while their move is going over you; cancel that crouching attack into a special move and (depending on which special move it is) you've made a good punish. Or sometimes you might be able to stand back up and attack before they able to block.

 

[PrinceCola]

Huh, crouching moves into special moves...this changes the entire game! But can a crouched move be meter burned into a launcher? Back heavy or forward heavy i mean.

 

[insomnia_ftw]

Huh, crouching moves into special moves...this changes the entire game! But can a crouched move be meter burned into a launcher? Back heavy or forward heavy i mean.

Yeah you can cancel a crouching move into a back/forward heavy, but it costs 2 bars to do so it's not that great unless you have meter to blow. What character do you play? You don't have to cancel into a back/forward heavy to get a combo. Example: Green arrow can cancel his crouching light attack into an ice arrow(his trait), which gives him the chance to do a combo for no meter.

 

[PrinceCola]

Shazam

 

[insomnia_ftw]

Shazam

Damn I haven't even touched shazam, but go into practice mode and try canceling a crouching light attack into some of his special moves and see what you get. If it works with his grab moves, then you have a combo starter right there since you can MB the grabs to continue the combo.

I'll warn you though, canceling into a special move from crouching light can be a pretty tough at first, especially with the down-back-forward input for shazam's grabs. Try to do it as if it were one move, down+light and then continue the motion to back then forward+(whatever button it is), all without missing a beat. You'll have to do it very fast, because the input for the special move has to be done by the time the crouching light attack hits.

 

[Chokeapotamus]

This is awesome, guys--exactly the kind of posts that the community should be about.

 

[PrinceCola]

Damn I haven't even touched shazam, but go into practice mode and try canceling a crouching light attack into some of his special moves and see what you get. If it works with his grab moves, then you have a combo starter right there since you can MB the grabs to continue the combo.

I'll warn you though, canceling into a special move from crouching light can be a pretty tough at first, especially with the down-back-forward input for shazam's grabs. Try to do it as if it were one move, down+light and then continue the motion to back then forward+(whatever button it is), all without missing a beat. You'll have to do it very fast, because the input for the special move has to be done by the time the crouching light attack hits.

Will do...sounds tricky but i will practice it. Also, Chokeapotamus: This community has been very nice to me! Sure, some troll posts like all forums, but people reply to my questions without making fun of me...which is great. When i asked for help on SF forum how to do a circle move they just laughed at me :/