DS fights BA pretty well . He controls air and interactables and forces ba to come to him with gunshots. Sword flip punishes regular dive kick at all heights.Explain why. 2nd person I say this to.
Let me point out a couple of errorsWell, Jailhouse listed at 6-4 for Batgirl back before the Dive Kick Nerf. Now BG can Flying Bat punish a blocked Dive Kick.
I dunno, It's just BA really doesn't have much to stop BG from doing what she wants to do. Both Lightning and Cloud can be Smoke Bombed on reaction, so that makes him very hesitant about tossing those out. Her vortex avoids him using Lightning Cage at all unless she just landed the full corner combo for 50%. And then if it's whiff punished you're dead.
BG's poke of choice (B1) is 1f faster than BA's (B2) and have comparable ranges. BA's 2 is faster but less range.
BA's main advantages are D1 Orbs, D1, Lightning, his backdash mobility, and midscreen meterless damage.
6f D1's prevent BG from continuing offense after a blocked B12, because it checks her. She can't do silly shit like flying bat or MBF3 after it.
BG's J2 beats all of BA's air moves pretty easily.
All in all, counters to BG have to have some of these things
1) Ability to Escape vortex (Aquaman)
2) Armor out the ass to blow through BG's neutral (Bane, Doomsday)
3) Hard to smoke bomb projectiles (SM, NW, BM)
4) Neutral that shuts down BG's neutral and forces her to take risks (SM)
5) GDLK spammable D1 with range (NW)
BA doesn't really have much of that. If both players play solid, BA has to do all the hard guesses.
I'm not saying BG wins free. I'm just saying as a BG player, I don't have any problems doing my thing in this matchup.
Dude, write points, everything that you just said is wrong.DS fights BA pretty well . He controls air and interactables and forces ba to come to him with gunshots. Sword flip punishes regular dive kick at all heights.
Shackles punish Adam's counterzoning tool, black magic and vice versa.Sinestro explanation please.
I broke my back... It's spinal.
what is wrong ?Dude, write points, everything that you just said is wrong.
Write out a paragraph of 2 instead of generalisations.
flip punishes badly spaced divekicks.what is wrong ?
- ds controls interactables and air
- forces ba to come to him , ba cant punish low guns from far
- flip punishes regular divekick
DS just limits BA
Rico also thinks this character is fine.Rico Suave thinks KF goes even with BA. Thoughts?
Rico Suave thinks KF goes even with BA. Thoughts?
He is currently the best BA even though he does not use all of his tools, very good player and that combination show him as the only BA who truly places and makes BA seem broken. BA is not broken but does need some nerfs, Rico so far plays him at the highest possible lvl of right now.I don't know about that, unless he sees something KF players aren't doing yet. But current known KF tools vs BA is a bad matchup imo.
Also Qwark and other top BA players, I would like to know what you guys think of ricos black adam, is he legit or is he using gimmicks/a lot of punishable stuff, not maximising damage/correct punishes/ not the correct blockstrings/frametraps etc.
He is currently the best BA even though he does not use all of his tools, very good player and that combination show him as the only BA who truly places and makes BA seem broken. BA is not broken but does need some nerfs, Rico so far plays him at the highest possible lvl of right now.
snip.
Interesting how in this particular character forum you choose to do the things I told u we do in order to make a tier list and what I do for zod's placement
And that was Focus on MUs
Jesus Christ what a loon
BA could never spam DK against batgirl, people just didn't know how to deal with it.Way to just go: "Hey these are BA's strengths" instead of really focusing on the MU.
1. Divekick nerf meant alot, are you kidding? It went from "Free divekicks at will" to "I need to be able to MB this divekick if I'm doing it randomly" Before, it was HUGE part of his neutral and BA could spam it against BG. Now it's not. Don't just focus on the punish.
2. except that BA's do lightning strike all the time against me. Just like people are still using interactibles against BG. It's a hard habit to break.
3. BG can actually zone fairly well if she wants to. It's more a meter building thing. Dash canceling Bolas and delayed Bolas do a lot to make them more effective. Batarangs are quick and MB U batarangs snipe everything out of the air. Also, the mere threat of smoke bomb makes BG's zone game more viable. It's not great, but it's often better than "hey i can't throw anything anymore".
4. It doesn't matter how much further B23 reaches if it's not faster (it think it's pretty similar in range actually), if it's not superman F2 (quicker AND farther)... then I can deal with it. You do B2 and I do B1, I win.
5. I think you vastly underestimate BG's damage potential, and realize if you guess wrong twice you lose a life bar. You're focusing on one shot/one combo damage when that's not Batgirls goal at all unless she corners you. You're focusing on block strings, because thaty's YOUR game, not BG's. Her game is to hit you. BA's combos resets you completely to neutral, BG's doesn't. When you DO knock her down though, you have to deal with BG's great wakeup options.
6. Also, I just react block low against BA, so his "mixup" is just throwing.
7. BG has complete air superiority. J2 beats everything BA does, and can be confirmed to MB Smokebomb off any hit. He has to backdash. If he blocks it, he has to pushblock her or eat a free 50/50.
I think this match up is pretty even, but I def think how stage selection could tilt it in BG's favor. Especially Plaza.
Deathstroke fights Black Adam better than most characters, but I think Black Adam still has a small advantage because of his high damage output.general m2dave whats ur opinion on ds-ba mu ?
Lol. And I explained that a Batgirl who dash cancels bolas can't get hit by divekick and then punish. Hell, I'm sure it'd take balls, but at full screen (where he's coming at a lower angle) i think you hold hold it and release it late and snag him out of dive kick altogether. Not to mention MB Batarang will just hit him out of the air if you're feeling that frisky.BA could never spam DK against batgirl, people just didn't know how to deal with it.
BAs who do lightning strike when they can't are obviously playing the matchup wrong, how is scrubby BAs that don't understand they can be punished contributing to this MU discussion?
And I just told you that BA can counterzone with divekick, that's why he has the move. Do a projectile and get bent for half life.
You must not understand how footsies and spacing works if you don't think range matters.
I'm focusing on blockstrings and big damage because that's what BA can do to batgirl. I'm telling you what he can do in this matchup.
You can't react and block low a 13f sweep and the fact that you think that this is his mixup after orbs means you haven't been following the latest tech for BA.
BA has no reason to jump.
After that post I'd rather discuss this matchup further with @Jailhouse .
You don't have to be a top player. You just have to be able to read that sweep is not the mixup I talked about after 3 damn posts and that divekick projectiles on reaction does catch the 15f or so of vulnerable dash cancelling. And you're not gonna air to air then smokebomb like you said if he does instant air divekick. You're not talking sense. This is why I'm not gonna discuss this with you but with Jailhouse.Lol. And I explained that a Batgirl who dash cancels bolas can't get hit by divekick and then punish. Hell, I'm sure it'd take balls, but at full screen (where he's coming at a lower angle) i think you hold hold it and release it late and snag him out of dive kick altogether. Not to mention MB Batarang will just hit him out of the air if you're feeling that frisky.
My point was is that BG has enough options in her projectiles so that BA has to think a bit more than "ooh, projectile? divekick, free 48%"
And... then he has to jump, ya see?
As for footsies and spacing, yes I understand that range is important. I played CvS2 for 7 years, footsies is king. But it's much less important in this game because walkspeed is so fucking balls that the best way to go somewhere is dashing or doing a move, not walking. So in injustice, the range game is more of an off/on switch as opposed to seeking that perfect max range poke, because it's so difficult to just waltz back and forth out of range.
I get why you focus on black adam's blockstrings and damage for black adam. Those are his strengths. But you can't say "BA has better blockstrings than BG, so he wins. BA does more damage, so he wins." That's not BG's goal.
BG hits you once, you flip a coin (or worse) a couple times, then you may lose the round. She has that going for her. She controls all interactibles, that's pretty good too. If you ever block a jump in, that's a 50/50.
I'm sorry, I'm not going to respect BA's sweep. I'll eat if 3 times, so that the 4th time if I manage to block, you get killed for it. Not scared of 7% compared to the threat of BA's overheads.
I don't think that's his "mixup", he's not a "mixup" character in the sense that Batgirl is. It's just not something I worry about in the fight.
Whatever, don't take it from me. I'm only saying it's 5-5. Have jailhouse or sonicfox come in and tell you they think it's 6-4 Batgirl or something. Gotta be a "top player" to have a "top opinion".
This is what happens when people beat random BA's online and think they know the matchup.You don't have to be a top player. You just have to be able to read that sweep is not the mixup I talked about after 3 damn posts and that divekick projectiles on reaction does catch the 15f or so of vulnerable dash cancelling. And you're not gonna air to air then smokebomb like you said if he does instant air divekick. You're not talking sense. This is why I'm not gonna discuss this with you but with Jailhouse.
BA himself is a simple character. He doesn't use his dirt to the max at all though. I have found a lot of setups with guaranteed inescapable damage yet everytime I saw him go for the setup he did the wrong thing always.I've noticed that he keeps his game really simple but effective as well and plays really safe. I think black adam is capable of a lot more cheap stuff up close, but he really plays the typical eastcoast defensive style.
divekick projectiles on reaction does catch the 15f or so of vulnerable dash cancelling.
So, let's give your reaction time at 14f. That's 35 frames, not including travel time (which isn't something they give data for).Qwark28 member: 3796 said:You can't react and block low a 13f sweep
BA has no reason to jump.
After that post I'd rather discuss this matchup further with @Jailhouse .