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The Balance of Injustice

CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
A New Angel Is Advent said:
A perfectly balanced fg would be so boring. Anything interesting a character does from the scumbag tactics list would not be around, and kill the meta game.
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That is not true at all. I mean, SF4 isn't 'perfectly balanced', but the balance is good; and it's way more exciting to watch the balanced characters go at it (and there's PLENTY of metagame) than to watch Cammy vortex-confirm her way to a win.

There are still plenty of 'scumbag tactics' from various characters.

Low tier will always be exciting, but it's even more exciting when you actually get to see them play because they weren't scrubbed out in the first two rounds by close-to-insurmountable odds.

A game is fun because the characters and character styles are good -- relying on imbalance to make things 'fun' is like throwing off your car's suspension so it's easier to make left turns.
 
cR WoundCowboy

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
Zoidberg747 said:
Except the game just becomes a broken POS because everyone has broken shit.

This whole buff and then not nerf thing never works, just tone down the top tier A LITTLE and then bring everyone else up.
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THANK-YOU!!
I can't tell you how sick I am of the "buff everybody", "make everybody crazy" argument. Doing that does not make the game better, it just means that people with less skill and understanding of footsies/fundamentals will have a better chance of winning because of the dumb shit their characters have. I personally enjoy when every character has some kind of big weakness like, for example, Sinestro. He is good at zoning but has shitty offense and mixups without trait. I wouldn't mind this if other characters all had weaknesses to overcome, but characters like Aqua and Supes make other characters seem almost totally useless. Why would you play another character when they have almost every footsie tool you could ask for? Not to mention the damage and mobility that each of them possess. There shouldn't be a "jack of all trades" character imo, and if there is, they shouldn't be the best at anything. People might say that this would turn Injustice into a game of counterpicks but it already is.
 
alkipot

alkipot

Purse first, ass last.
CrimsonShadow said:
That is not true at all. I mean, SF4 isn't 'perfectly balanced', but the balance is good; and it's way more exciting to watch the balanced characters go at it (and there's PLENTY of metagame) than to watch Cammy vortex-confirm her way to a win.
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I can agree here, SF4 isn't perfectly balanced, but I don't feel like I'm at a ridiculous disadvantage using Cody vs any character in the game, even vs Cammy. When I use Joker, Lobo or even Nightwing in Injustice I know there are just some matchups that are pretty much 'fuck it, I'm probably losing this' status.

At least Injustice is fun as hell, I'll give it that.
 
Zatoichi

Zatoichi

Fabulous Goofball
Wasn't really asking for ALL the characters to get buffs, only the low and mid tier characters, and I never said they should get crazy buffs but ok. :confused:
 
E

EntwinedTodd

Noob
This game, and also mk are quite balanced. My theory is this; matchups are not character versus character, but player versus player. If you disagree, you're probably just salty.
 
Zoidberg747

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
EntwinedTodd said:
This game, and also mk are quite balanced. My theory is this; matchups are not character versus character, but player versus player. If you disagree, you're probably just salty.
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Or have half a brain.

MK had some horrible MUs that the best players in the world could not win.

Injustice has some MUs that are also really really terrible.
 
chemist4hire

chemist4hire

I Got Guiled
Zatoichi said:
Do we really know that though? Which fighting games have actually done this?

And what would you do to tone down characters like Black Adam, Batman and Superman?
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David Sirlin followed that approach with Street Fighter II Super Turbo when making HD remix. ST had a crazy long tournament life, but remix died after 2 years. It basically just rearranged the tier list and made Honda OP. I personally preferred ST to HD remix. You can google Sirlin's website and read all about his balance approach which mirrors your suggestion but the death of the game tournament wise speaks for itself.
 
Akromaniac27

Akromaniac27

Ready to lose your head?
Zoidberg747 said:
Or have half a brain.
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Lmao XD

On a serious note I agree with many saying there should be a vast amount of 5-5 MU's. A character with virtually no weakness except for 1 damn MU or 2 is an obvious flawed design. And while this game seems to have a lot of "character variety" it sort of doesn't. There are those that are unique in their own way, but others you can group in groups of about 3 that share very similar styles only that one has a little extra more that the others of that group don't and annoyingly that little extra is what really tips the scale
 
E

EntwinedTodd

Noob
Jeffreys said:
...

So Kenshi vs Kitana was balanced

...
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Sigh... Just because a matchup is hard for you doesn't mean it or the game itself is unbalanced. This is why we get so many stupid patches. Some characters have bad matchups, deal with it.

Don't make excuses, make improvements.
 
Chongo

Chongo

Dead Kings Rise
EntwinedTodd said:
Sigh... Just because a matchup is hard for you doesn't mean it or the game itself is unbalanced. This is why we get so many stupid patches. Some characters have bad matchups, deal with it.

Don't make excuses, make improvements.
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I guess there was a huge skill gap between GGA 16 Bit and FOREVER KING at EVO this year. Bit on blast for losing that 5-5 MU.
 
Lumpymoomilk

Lumpymoomilk

Online Punching Bag
I still think all the "zoning" in this is over the top, with mediocre dashes, slow walk speeds, half screen combo starters and most of the cast without teleports.
 
chemist4hire

chemist4hire

I Got Guiled
Lumpymoomilk said:
I still think all the "zoning" in this is over the top, why bother blocking attacks/strings and doing reads when you can just backdash and chuck shit at each other when the match gets down to chip damage.
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Uhm this happens on every game with a projectile except for SFIII.

To avoid the situation you speak of you need to make them scared to back dash. I think if you could get in on 1 or 2 dashes after a blocked projectile and no projectile pushed back on block, people would not hate the zoning so much in this game.
 
Lumpymoomilk

Lumpymoomilk

Online Punching Bag
chemist4hire said:
Uhm this happens on every game with a projectile except for SFIII.

To avoid the situation you speak of you need to make them scared to back dash. I think if you could get in on 1 or 2 dashes after a blocked projectile and no projectile pushed back on block, people would not hate the zoning so much in this game.
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Mk half the cast had teleports, dash blocking and not many characters could rapid fire out shit. Plus interactables for huge unblockable damage. It's the run away and chuck crap at people game.
 
That__John__Guy

That__John__Guy

Patzer
Personally, I am optimistic. From what I've gathered from TYM it seems like things are pretty close to being well-balanced. Most forums on characters have reached a consensus on a few minor buffs to low-tier characters. For example, the Lobo thread has about 5-6 changes, most of them minor (fix the whiff on this, make this easier to link, give earlier armour on this) and tweak on trait (let him stack a shell and give it armor breaking). Half of the Bane players think he is fine as is, others want a couple slight buffs. And so on. Joker, Lex, most of the others as well have just a couple things they are asking for to be happy. A lot of characters are happy where things are at and don't really want any buffs (but definitely no nerfs). I don't think anyone wants or expects Superman or Black Adam to be nerfed into Kano 2.0, just a couple minor nerfs.

Couple this with the fact that we know NRS is working on a comprehensive patch. Just because it is a 'big patch' doesn't mean there will be characters over-nerfed or over-buffed. If anything, they are probably taking their time on it to try to avoid that from happening. IGAU is a pretty complicated game, with all the interactables, level transitions, clashes, and 30 characters with a bunch of different movesets, traits, and specials. That's a lot to expect to be balanced right out of the gate. Yet it seems they are trying to get it right. So, for the moment I am looking to the future with confidence that NRS can take the ball those last few yards and get things close to perfect.
 
Incognito

Incognito

Mortal
Zoidberg747 said:
Except the game just becomes a broken POS because everyone has broken shit.

This whole buff and then not nerf thing never works, just tone down the top tier A LITTLE and then bring everyone else up.
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I would agree with you, but it's been proven that ppl love broken fighting games...
 
xXstealthflameXx

xXstealthflameXx

Finding a Main
While some people like to play top tier characters because they want to win, I would never touch a top tier character. The only one I play is MMH who is up there, and any further DLC that will be amazing. I enjoy Raven and Ares because I feel rewarded. Superman eye lasers? Absorb that shit! Black Adam divekick? Shadow Raven that shit! Seriously, bump up low tier and bump down top tier. And I agree, No one should be good at everything. Does almost everyone need a zoning tool and teleport? Seriously? Sinestro and Cyborg would be a lot better if most of the cast had to work their way in.
 
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